So I guess Vidro’s knee is bad
DMZ · June 24, 2008 at 10:34 am · Filed Under Mariners
…at least according to Riggleman. It’s not that he’s done as a hitter. No! This — this is why he’s been hitting so poorly all year, though the team’s done nothing about it and found no one to replace him and hasn’t put him on the DL and kept hitting him high in the lineup so on and so forth.
It wasn’t that long ago I conceded that Bavasi may have been right about the team’s belief that they could keep Vidro healthy and in the lineup. I guess we don’t even get that.
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[ot]
Yep, Vidro’s knee is bad…along with the rest of him.
Thanks, I’ll be here all week. Be sure to tip your server.
If we go back and re-check all of the assumptions that Bavasi has made through the years, we’ll be here all day.
[meta]
Seriously, can someone in the organization just admit the obvious? You guys screwed the pooch on the Vidro acquisition, so just cut him, say “man, that didn’t work, sorry”, and stop insulting our intelligence.
Riggleman: another master of the obvious.
Nye: Thanks, I’ll be here all week. Be sure to tip your server.
Is that a veiled request for donations for new hardware?
Jeff Nye beat me to the punch. His knee is bad, his hands are bad, his approach is bad — he’s bad.
That reminds me… I have a tech post to make.
No, but if you feel it’s appropriate, there’s a handy button for that very thing!
In any case, let’s haul this comment thread back to Vidro and his sucktasticness. There’s a lot there to talk about, after all!
in bizzaro world, vidro would be the M.V.P.
[off-topic but maybe you could ask that question when Derek writes his tech post]
Excuses!
If his knee is so bad, why did he play first on Sunday??? Shouldn’t he have just been on the bench available to pinch hit?
I’ve had it with this BS… The guy has had bad knees for the last few years and they haven’t and aren’t going to get any better, so if it is affecting his hitting then isn’t he DONE AS A HITTER???
I was under the impression Vidro’s knees were porcelain before he even finished playing for for ‘spos. Is that wrong?
So … any chance that they are playing/saying things about these guys in desperation to get any other team to be willing to give them something, anything of remote value in a trade? It’s the only thing I can think of. [Mariner's thought process ... "If they can just get lucky for a week, show a brief gleam of their former self, maybe instead of eating 100% we can eat 80%, or get some long-shot prospect in return.] It’s the only thing I can think of, and while I think it highly unlikely any teams would fall for it … it’s happened before (and not just by us!).
The thing about this too — and someone brought this up in a previous comment thread — is that this is just part of the whole ridiculous Sexson/Ibanez injury thing.
Angry at a player for sucking for ages? Hey, guess what, he was injured. Not his fault! In fact, they’re a gamer for sticking it out. Why didn’t we tell you? 2001! 1995! Weren’t those great years?
It just honks me off.
Nobody’s giving you anything for Vidro in a trade.
He’s worse than replacement level at this point, and offers no upside. Smart teams pick up better players than Vidro from the scrap heap, they don’t give up talent for them.
I don’t mean that to sound condescending or dismissive, so please don’t take it that way; it just gets brought up all the time (usually when people talk about Bloomquist or Sexson) and I’m pretty sure the idea of “showcasing a guy for a trade” is a myth in general, but with worthless players like these it’s even less likely.
If you were going to try to showcase Vidro for a move, what you’d want to do is shut him down for a while with some random, made-up injury — a nagging one like a hammy would be good — sit him, wait, and then put him back in the lineup against a set of… which side is he hitting slightly better? Never mind. You put him in against some chum pitching, hope he racks up a couple of hits, claim he’s cured, hope the scouts they sent were really gullible and impressed those few games, and then punt him.
The longer he’s out there, the more they see him, the less they’ll want him.
Wasn’t the reason given for trading for him in the first place that he had bad knees and the move to DH would unleash a torrent of awesomeness?
Has that ever happened before…in the past five years?
Worst case scenario, and I pray it’s not the case, is that they REALLY think he’s still good and just hurt and that they’ll let his option kick in by letting him play through the pain…
If he’s on the team next year, I’m gonna puke…
go and listen to the Riggleman interview from this morning — what he doesn’t know about the team he has been coaching for the last five months is mindboggling.
He was probably daydreaming the whole time he was sitting there.
I don’t know about “porcelain,” but yeah, he had problems with his knees. I remember Jose as a solid player and figured he’s be the “next really good Expo” after Vlad left in 2003. Instead, he was hurt a lot. The Mariners know that his knees prevented him from playing in the field. Hence, the DH role.
It’s too late now, but Vidro plays about 10 or 15 pounds too heavy. Ten years ago he was 180, but put on probably 50 (!) pounds by the time the Expos left town. He’s lost some of that weight since then, but he sure as heck doesn’t weigh 200 like his bio says.
Wouldn’t this “injury” be the perfect time to DL Vidro, put Raul at DH, call up WLAD and have ICHIRO! go back to CF where he belongs? Reed in LF and WLAD in RF…or bring up Diaz to DH…something…I’m just so sick of this line-up…
Half the front office would be out of jobs.
He might as well have the word ‘Caretaker’ tattooed on his forehead. I’d be pretty casual about the job too, if it were me.
I don’t think Riggleman should have mentioned it. I think this is some sort of HIPAA violation.
Did we mention we saved baseball in Seattle???
DLing him is a waste. If he needs to be on the DL then he needs to be released.
22- Care to paraphrase for me? I’m at work and cannot access most links…
Did anyone here the rest of Riggy’s talk on KJR. Three things just stunned me: 1) The excuse about Virdo 2) Rigglemen didn’t know that Ichiro started as a RF and 3) Anything at all about Brandon Morrow as a pitcher.
Funny, but saddest comment from the interview.
Riggles thinks that other teams still worry when Vidro is up at the plate.
Vidro as a hitter, his skill set is hitting ground balls to the infield.
He has no speed, even when healthy, so other than the occasional lucky infield single that he manages to leg out…
Bavasi should have known what he was getting. Vidro’s OPS+ in 2008 was 96. But hey! Vidro was a good hitter in 2002 and 2003! Sign him up!
OK, that should have been 2006 when Vidro had an OPS+ of 96. That was his last year as a National.
I don’t know why the 6 morphed into an 8.
And they’re pissed at Bedard for not manning up and playing through pain…
Really not getting it, are they?
Isn’t that what they pay bench coaches to do? No? Then what the &$@# have the M’s bench coaches been doing to earn their checks the last few years?
I was curious, so I listened to the interview. I didn’t hear the same things as others to be honest. I heard (paraphrasing):
1) Vidro – he was damaged goods when he got here, the years on the turf destroyed his knees.
2) Morrow – I like having him in the bullpen because he’s a good reliever but it’s not my call (whether he goes to the rotation).
3) Sexson – Barring a miracle, he’s gone pretty soon.
4) Ichiro – I didn’t pay much attention to west coast baseball between 2001 to 2008. Interesting candor at least.
5) Bedard – Lay off of him, he’s got some legitimate durability concerns and he’s the only one who knows his body.
Anyhow, just wanted to chime in that I didn’t hear Riggleman sounding clueless (except about Ichiro). Felt like defending him.
let’s see, what else.
He was surprised when Morrow made the team, as he thought that Morrow wasn’t going to break camp with the M’s due to his poor spring performance (ahem. injury? Tennessee?)
After 5 months he can’t pronounce either Clement or Johjima correctly.
in 2002 he interviewed for the job of Mariners manager. Think he might have done some research?
He did talk about the injury though too – he mentioned that as one reason why he would prefer Morrow stay in the pen. I’m not going to hold the pronunciation thing against him, but I noticed that as well. For all I know, he has a hard time with those names (I didn’t even notice Clement to be honest – maybe because he was butchering Johjima so bad).
Like I said with Ichiro, interesting candor. One other point though, it was a pretty long interview and he seemed at times to be struggling to find a way to avoid chucking people under the bus. If you just read the highlights, you wouldn’t notice how much he was getting baited to say that Sexson & Vidro are terrible and Bedard is a wuss.
I just finished listening, too, and I completely agree with Max Power’s read (er, listen) on the situation. Just to add on to that…
Certainly he knew of Ichiro, probably knew he was an outfielder, good hitter, etc. I’ll give him a pass on not remembering exactly which outfield position he played.
Also, some interesting comments defending Bedard, if you can wade through it all (he even admits he prefers to give long-winded answers). Basically, the trainer attests that Bedard was always working hard in the weight room, so it’s not a laziness or conditioning issue. He’s just a little on the frail side as pitchers go.
He also points out that quite a few pitchers in baseball hand the ball over after about 100 pitches, so it’s normal in today’s game. The thing with Bedard is that he just doesn’t care what anyone thinks (Riggleman re-iterated that he cares deeply about winning), so he doesn’t try to smooth over his image like other players might. Because of that, he probably takes a little more criticism than he deserves from fans, media, etc.
Diabeetus finally caught up to him. Alert Wilford Brimley.
Here’s what I don’t get about Vidro: BAVASI IS GONE. Unless it wasn’t a Bavasi move to go and get Jose Vidro, then what the hell do they have to gain by not admitting mistakes? The one who made the mistake is no longer around and the season is sunk. Wouldn’t it be EASIER to dump Vidro now that the person who acquired him is gone?
This team and saving face… it’s so damn Japanese.
Another thing I found interesting was at the beginning – he said something about there being 30 other teams having manager jobs and whatnot that indicated that he has 0 expectation of being retained as the manager. I think he caught himself and then spun it into a discussion of how thankful he was to have this opportunity with the M’s, but I got the distinct impression that he knows he’s only here until the end of the season.
Did anyone else catch that and have the same impression?
Brandon Morrow’s knees are fine (as are mine thank you very much). And it’s spelled Diabetes for future reference.
he also knows first hand just how long you can wait between jobs as a ML manager
MaxPower,
Are you new to the internet? “Diabeetus” is a meme. Go use google image search if you’re curious (yes, it’s stupid).
Is Morrow more injury prone coming out of bullpen for a little work on consecutive days, or pitching on a starter’s schedule? What do the M’s need more for the future, a super awesome bullpen guy, or an unknown quantity as a starter? We already know what he can do out of the bullpen, what does having him setup for JJ if he ever gets back to the closer role, or take over for JJ if he doesn’t, do for the team? Is being the closer important right now when the team is rarely in save situations? When winning any games this season won’t amount to a fart in a hurricane?
Edgar for Mayor #20. Just because you didn’t appreciate the unique and special talents offered by players the likes of Horatio Ramirez is not the fault, (and nor are they liable for injury’s resulting from heretofore mentioned players, players of that quality, real or imagined abilities of said contracted players), is not the fault of the management. Rigglemania
How can he “get a pass” on not knowing that Ichiro played right field?
It’s one of the bigger strategic decisions over the last few years. It was clearly a decision still considered significant since they reversed it the day Bavasi was fired.
It was Area 51.
And it wasn’t like he was some random filler player when he was in right field.
I find the idea that someone could be employed in MLB for years and not know what position the first position player from Japan played to be pretty damning.
Was he asleep during 2001? In a coma when Ichiro set the major league hits record?
It’s like being the Yankees’ manager and not knowing that A-Rod used to be a shortstop.
I’m trying not to apply labels to the man right now, but the obliviousness is alarming.
And this thread was about Vidro’s knees. Sorry, got caught up in the pitcher thought processor, it’s like putting your hand in the garbage disposal to get that fork out, and your buddy hits the fuse ’cause it was off. Painful this year.
#15, can’t hit, benched for bad knees = more trade value?
Especially since he was with the Dodgers for half of that time.
I guess that explains why he didn’t get promoted there.
Unfortunately, the Mariners can’t trade with themselves.
If he was living somewhere on the East Coast in 2001, then he may not have been in a coma when Ichiro set the hits record, but he was probably asleep. Maybe I’m going too easy on him, sure, but I don’t really care if he’s forgotten “important” details from seven years ago, as long as he makes room for the ones that matter now, like how bad Vidro is.
(I just remembered that in the interview he also mentioned that Johjima and Clement would each be getting some games at DH, which meant that “somebody else” would be losing some at-bats there.)
Riggleman is right. There is a lot to worry about when Vidro is at the plate. Here is just one example:
Second Baseman: “Hey, pitcher. Throw Vidro outside for the 6-4-3.
Shortstop: (trots in) “Hell no! Jam him! Let’s 4-6-3 his ass!â€
Second Baseman: “Again? You got the pivot on first two double plays he hit into today. Let someone else have a turn.â€
Third Baseman (trots in) “C’mon, guys. I can’t even remember the last time I started a 5-4-3.â€
Second Baseman: “It was yesterday . . . Vidro’s second at-bat.â€
Shortstop: “No, that was a 3-6-4. His third time up though, vintage 5-4-3.â€
Second Baseman: “Whatever, the bottom line is . . .
Third Baseman: “Oh yeah. Now I remember. The groundball was so routine I almost forgot. Sorry. (trots away).
Second Baseman: “Like I was saying, 6-4-3!â€
Pitcher: “Screw you guys. I’m starting this one. You can fight over the bag.â€
51 – For one, he was with the Dodgers in 2001 (See West Coast joke above). But more importantly, it is a really relevant piece of information for him to have, consider it is a (clearly) ongoing debate in the organization.
Don’t you think someone tasked with running the dang team should know the most basic details about their abilities and experience? I mean, that’s just ridiculous.
Yeah, I didn’t understand the not knowing Ichiro played RF thing. I can tell you where Jason Lane, Jason Kubel, Ryan Church, and Kosuke Fukudome play, and Riggles doesn’t know Ichiro started in RF? Maybe he needs to start playing fantasy baseball…
All he said was that when McLaren moved him back to right field, he’d forgotten that was Ichiro’s original position when he came to the States. Now he’s planning to keep him there since Ichiro seems to prefer it. He also mentioned that he was a little surprised at the decision since he didn’t see an obvious candidate for center field, but now he’s cool with it because, well… Ichiro!
Anyway, it doesn’t totally bother me that the bench coach (at the time) wasn’t involved in the decision to move an outfielder over a few paces. It’s not like he’s doing anything crazy, like asking Jeremy Reed to play first base (just making an obviously ridiculous suggestion for hyperbolic effect). McLaren moves Ichiro, McLaren gets fired, on we go.
I’m pretty sure he said something about living on the East Coast and not following the club though I could be mistaken. I don’t know why he would have brought it up – it really seems unlikely that he wouldn’t have known that Ichiro was a RF. Maybe he didn’t want to talk about it because it’s a decision that he has no control over, but he wasn’t shy about mentioning that the call on Morrow also wasn’t his, so I just don’t know.
It’s always amusing how little the guys on the field (managers, players, etc.) know about what’s going on in the rest of the league. Anybody read that chapter in Andy Roddick Beat Me With a Frying Pan where they surveyed major league players and asked them to name as many Tampa Bay Devil Rays as they could? I don’t have it in front of me, but I think the average was like three or four. There was one guy that couldn’t name even a single one (most could at least get Carl Crawford), and it was the Mariners’ own Jose Lopez, if I recall.
I imagine they tend to be aware of even less in the other league.
57: I don’t think Jose Lopez is considered likely managerial material at this point in his career, either. On the other hand, one of the most endearing of Ken Griffey, Jr.’s endearing attributes as a young player was his knowledge and reverence for the history of the game.
As to Riggleman on Vidro, the sad fact is that there is no one in our lineup that scares anyone (other than the guy who will end up batting 1.000 with a 4.000 slugging percentage and an OPS of 4.500). And by sticking Vidro, Sexson (or Cairo) and Johjima into the center of the lineup, any advantage that Ichiro, Lopez or Beltre might bring is diminished. There’s no one in the lineup where, if the two guys in front of him get on base, you automatically think “hey, we’re going to have a big inning!” That doesn’t mean we never will have a big inning, but it’s not like if the Red Sox get two guys on with Ortiz and Manny coming up. We simply don’t make pitchers sweat.
I don’t think it matters wheter Vidro is healthy or hurt, he sucks.
I wonder, is the orginization saying this bwcause it is true or saying it to make an excuse for Vidro’s crappy hitting?
No matter hoe they sell this, having Vidro on the team still makes us look bad.
You managed to say it more clearly and succinctly than I could, cody. I think we’re probably reading too much into Riggleman’s comments re: Vidro. He’s been hired to reorganize the deck chairs of the Titanic, so I guess we should forgive him for conveniently “admiring the beauty” of a giant steel chair he coincidentally isn’t nearly strong enough to move. Easier to polish the thing than try to throw its useless hulking weight overboard, throwing your back out in the process, eh?
still is. He was the one who petitioned Selig to allow him to wear the 42 jersey on Jackie Robinson day …
My initial reaction was this must be an excuse as to why they haven’t DFA’d Vidro, and why they might not DFA him anytime soon. Similar to the unwritten rule that says a player can’t lose his job due to injury, regardless of how well his replacement has performed, I get the feeling that the Mariners are buying time for Vidro to get “healthy” and make one last attempt at a payoff.
How’d that work out with Wally Pipp again? I think that’s a football rule, not a baseball rule.
just fine, as it turns out the story is an urban legend
Sure, but how many Lous Gehrig’s are hiding in the bushes? Veterans generally have to play their way out of a starting job. Instances of this appear every week on the transaction log as guys get healthy and their replacements return to AAA or the end of the bench.
which is what happened with Pipp.
Hey, you’re right. I read Snopes passage on the Wally Pipp myth. Just another example of the slumping veteran replaced by a hot-hitting future HOF’er.
No You’re right. Teach me oh wise one
Man, are we relentless, or what? I think we all saw the Bavasi/McLaren firings, smelled blood, and decided to go on a feeding frenzy.
Hey, if it gets us what we as fans want, keep going, right?
good chapter on it in Jonathan Eig’s Gehrig bio, too