Hey, Team Executive
From Hickey’s piece today:
“Lee has been talking to everybody about making a deal,” one member of the Mariners front office said Wednesday. “He’d like to get something done if it make us a better team.
“But I think he’s prepared to not do anything. He isn’t going to give anyone away. We aren’t a club that has to do things based on money. I’m not sure everyone knows that, but that’s the way it is.”
You’re not a club that has to do things based on money? Then please explain to me why you didn’t try to sign Vladimir Guerrero when he was a free agent. I asked Bavasi that question personally, and you know what he told me? “I was out of money.”
Or, if you don’t have to do things based on money, why didn’t you sign Miguel Tejada (thank God, but that’s not the point) or Barry Zito (ditto) or Carlos Lee (again, phew) or Carl Pavano (holy crap you guys tried to sign a lot of bad players) or Carlos Delgado (this is getting tiresome) or Hiroki Kuroda (hey, someone who isn’t totally awful!). Why did you go into this season with Brad Wilkerson in right field?
Why didn’t you keep Jose Guillen? Or Alex Rodriguez? Or Randy Johnson?
I’d keep going, but these are rhetorical questions. I already know the answer. You do make decisions based on money, just like every other franchise in baseball. You have a budget, and you don’t get to spend whatever you feel like spending on any player you want. Any money you spend on players is money you can’t spend on other players. If you’re giving $10 million to Jarrod Washburn, that’s $10 million you can’t give to C.C. Sabathia.
So, Mr. Team Executive, stop patronizing your fan base. We’re smarter than that. We understand cost/benefit analysis – do you?
And people wonder why the Washburn deal has stalled. Lee should’ve been happy just to get him off the books, but he keeps holding out for top dollar, and other GMs are now calling his bluff.
What are the chances that we get Washburn off the books by Aug 31 anyway? Doesn’t that accomplish the same thing, essentially?
The people who run this team drive me insane.
That’s probably the thinking, but that approach worries me, because Washburn is living on borrowed time.
Generally I agree with you Dave but I do think that a lot of this was just posturing by Lee. It was poorly executed like many things Mariner, but it was just posturing. I took it to mean: “Our main motivation is not to dump salary right now. We are not desperate to cut costs.”
They should be however ashamed that 100M payroll will be close to a 100 losses.
But he said that he doesn’t do things based on money…
This organization basically has two choices this offseason: either change their ways for good, or mire in mediocrity forever.
(tee hee, it sounds so clever)
#5
I don’t know if it’s posturing. I like Geoff Baker’s analysis that the M’s believe they can deal Washburn after the deadline in a pure salary dump. So why give in before the deadline?
Why? Weeell…and this is the part Baker leaves out…Washburn might stop pitching well. It could happen any time now. It WILL happen eventually. The M’s aren’t playing chicken with the Yankees, they’re playing chicken with Washburn’s suck, which will no doubt make an appearance and undermine Washburn’s value in the next few starts. He can’t hide it forever.
I am not saying that their reasoning is sound! They should have dumped him for whatever the Yankees were willing to give and they botched it. I do think its bluffing and posturing. The problem is that when you bluff and everyone knows you are holding 2, 3 unsuited the bluff is laughable.
Speaking of Baker, today on KJR he acknowledged that Yuni and Jose are awful up the middle and that it has hurt Mariner pitching. It was nice to hear reality about the Mariners on the radio.
Damn, Dave.
Damn. That was some potent ether.
Dave…you totally missed the boat on this one. Don’t you recognize postering when you see it? The Yanks say they’re in no hurry and that the M’s need to get rid of Washburn just to dump salary. The M’s are trying to get the Yankees to sweeten the pot. Granted…both teams understand what the other is doing. It’s just a big game a chicken and they’re both waiting to see who’ll blink first.
You just helped the Yankees a bit with your astute argument.
The word you’re looking for is “posturing”.
Maybe he means they’re actually trying to make posters out of what they’re saying…
I still can’t figure out why it’s so important to merely “get him off the books”.
Sure, you’re supposed to have a pro-rated amount of his salary (2 months) this year and $10M next year “freed up” to play with, but what will they do with that money? Pay some other free agents? Save up for the next June draft? What’s the big deal, considering that ALL baseball teams, even the cheapskate ones, seem to play with Monopoly money?
Isn’t it better to try to get a marginally BETTER prospect than the zero/cipher that the Yankees are offering in return for the privilege of taking on Washburn’s salary — especially when you consider most other teams (ex: Detroit yesterday) seem to fall all over themselves offering 2 and 3 prospects or a pretty decent player for the Yankees’ unwanted players?
You can just guess that if the Yankees see Wang and Hughes are 100%, Washburn’s Yankee career will last a New York minute, and he’ll get traded for 2 top prospects and 2 draft choices in the offseason. And we M’s fans will be gritting our teeth and saying, “why couldn’t WE do that???”
As for the point about Vlad Guerrero, etc., you have to figure that there’s been some slight change in the organization’s philosophy since the Bavasi era ended (we hope)…
I’m pretty sure whoever said that meant that the team is not motivated by money to make any deals before the deadline. They don’t need to shed Washburn’s salary because if they trade him, they’ll just have $10 million to spend on another pitcher pretty much like him this offseason. Besides, there’s a pretty good chance that Wash will get claimed in August anyway if the M’s really want to trade him.
The Pirates and Royals of the world could actually use that $10m next offseason. Seattle isn’t in the same situation.
This has always been my biggest beef with this current management group. They really do insult our intelligence at will, and think we’ll never catch on.
They continue to say these types of things, and then feel hurt when we accuse them of putting money ahead of winning.
These are all really smart business men who understand how to turn good profits. Problem is, I’d give all of that profit away just for a chance at hope. They won’t.
Spanky – Way to point out trade tactics 101 to Dave. I’m sure he had no clue.
Can anyone figure out why Pelekoudas is asking high from other teams for other Mariners on the block, like a prime prospect from the Mets or TWO prospects from the Rockies?
I can see not quite being able to bring themselves to accept practically nothing from the Yankees for Washburn, but with regards to Ibanez and Rhodes, c’mon, they aren’t THAT valuable — are they?
While listening to the post game show on the radio last night, one commentator mentioned the same thing–that the M’s are sound financially and will not participate in “salary dumps.”
The team is in rough shape, of course, and it would be nice to get some decent prospects for some of the players that still have market value and who will be over the hill by the time the team is decent (possibly a couple of years down the road). It doesn’t appear that getting anything other than salary relief for Washburn is possible (a good idea though), but Lee should be able to get prospects for guys such as Ibanez, Beltre, or JJ, who should also be a trade consideration, simply for the potential return. At this point, I think moving those guys would be very helpful. He needs to move on the matter.
Or Lee can simply not do anything and just let the organization roll out the same team next year, minus a free agent or two that will leave (Ibanez).
Lee has the power to make an impact on the team’s future today. I would like to see him step up and show the fans that he is capable of being a capable GM that can improve the team. However, my prediction is that the only player who will be moved is Arthur Rhodes for a non-prospect.
They just better not jack up the ticket prices next year to see a repeat of this year, because that is what may be in the future.
Getting rid of Washburn shows mercy to the fans. Take a sack of potatoes if they will take his contract for ’09, I don’t give a damn. Replace him in the rotation with replacement level talent making 5% the money and getting the same results. If I have to watch us race to 100 losses again next year, please, for the love of God, let’s do it with a payroll actually befitting the results.
Take the money you would spend on Washburn in ’09, sack up, draft out of slot and pay a kid with some serious potential to give the finger to Stanford and head to West Tennessee instead. Getting Bus’ contract off the books leaves money for reinvestment. Put the Bus money into the depleted farm system!
Karen – My take on that is that Lee has been given orders not to just trade guys away for salary relief. I can’t say I hate the idea. What if it works?
The last few years, we’ve been grunting and groaning about being the ones on the short end of the trade stick. Wouldn’t it be nice if, for once, we can see something of value come back in return?
That said, I’m really hoping their idea is to ask for the moon, and if they don’t get it, swing the salary dump at the last second. If that is how this ends up, I really don’t think any of us can be mad at them trying to make the team/farm system better, even if no one falls for it.
A LEE Rhodes to Marlins for SP Gaby Hernandez
“The Seattle Post Intelligencer reports that the Rockies were “shocked” when the Mariners asked for both Dexter Fowler and Casey Weathers in exchange for Jarrod Washburn.
No wonder the Yankees backed out of the rumored deal for Washburn. The newspaper also notes that the Mariners asked for “Jon Niese and/or Fernando Martinez or another top prospect” from the Mets, which is even more laughable.”
Sooner or later teams are just going to start ignoring Lee’s calls. It’s a waste of time to pick up the phone and hear those demands by Lee.
Lee, you live in a dream world. Stop, you’re killing us. No, stop.
Looks good on first glance. Anyone know anything on this Hernandez?
Article written last year on Hernandez
Scout.com Article
He has not pitched well at all in AAA (ERA over 7).
BUT.. he does have an .833 OPS in a handfull of at bats! Convert him!
Do you think the Yankees get their executive strategy from blogs?
Ibanez, unlikely that anyone would give up something of more value than 2 draft picks. Which makes a deal for him unlikely.
Rhodes should have some value, every team seems to want a LOOGY.
He had a really high BABIP in AAA (.376) so I wouldn’t worry too much about the ERA over 7. More troubling are his unimpressive strike out and grounball totals. This guy could be the second coming of Jarrod Washburn. Of course, if Jarrod Washburn were owned for the league minimum, he would be a valuable player. And Gaby just turned 22 and could still improve. I wouldn’t confine him to a life of suckitude yet. Plus, we got him for Arthur Rhodes. If he ends up being a fourth or fifth starter, we did well. First glance says this was a good trade, but I’ll reserve judgement until I see what someone who knows more about him than I do has to say.
Baseball Reference stats for Hernandez
173 BB to 484 K for his career. He’s pitching in AAA as a 22 year old. He looks to be progressing quickly. Can’t complain about trading Rhodes for a young pitcher with some upside.
While his ERA and WHIP are ugly in AAA this year, do many 22 year olds do well in AAA when they get promoted?
I think of a salary dump as trading a good, but expensive, player in order to save money (e.g. KC trading Beltran). The gamble is that you can replace 2 or 3 wins at league-minimum with a prospect. In Washburn’s case, he’s just expensive, but not all that good. It’s not so much of a gamble to replace him (see, for instance, DAMellen’s comment on Gaby). Move him.
As far as holding out for two prospects for Ibanez, absolutely. Dave covered that a while back – we’ll get two fairly high draft picks if we hang onto Ibanez and he walks, so don’t trade him for less than that now.
Olney’s blog:
“As of 10:30 a.m. ET, the Mariners and Yankees had not picked up the threads of their conversations about pitcher Jarrod Washburn, and executives involved in the trade talks don’t expect that their standoff will be resolved.
The Yankees are willing to pay the rest of Washburn’s salary, about $14 million, but aren’t willing to trade a good prospect in the deal, and the Mariners asked for the Yankees’ best pitching prospect. It is a situation, however, that could change rapidly with one phone call.”
Lee, stop it.
I would be very impressed if the Yankees could get 2 prospects and 2 draft picks for Washburn in the offseason. If Cashman can trade for picks that would be a great competitive advantage to have with your GM, and the Mariners should do everything they can to put him in charge here.
Carson
“Way to point out trade tactics 101 to Dave. I’m sure he had no clue.”
I’m sure he knows all about “trade tactics 101″…but then what’s the point of this post?? Please tell me what I’m missing. Why spend 236 words going off on the M’s for something that was just rhetoric to begin with?? The M’s do a lot of propagandizing that insults our intelligence. This wasn’t propagandizing but counter-posturing for the Yankees supposed “we can wait and just convince you to do a salary dumpâ€.
My point really was more along the lines of why go off on the M’s on this particular message out of ALL of the stupid stuff they’ve said and done? Why this and why now?
This wasn’t propagandizing but counter-posturing for the Yankees supposed “we can wait and just convince you to do a salary dumpâ€.
Because it’s obvious that the Mariners are better off trading Jarrod Washburn in a salary dump, and that they are posturing- and that’s why our intelligence is being insulted?
Look, Jarrod Washburn’s a 5th starter making top-of-rotation money (much like Miguel Batista and Carlos Silva). There’s no reason he SHOULD command good prospects, outside of a GM that will overpay for a player, and last I checked, Bill Bavasi isn’t the GM of the Yankees.
This being the Mariners, I fully expect them to do what they usually do: never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Paul B said:
You’d think so, were you to read the comments section on Peter Abraham’s LoHud Yankee blog.
As reported by CC03, Buster Olney this morning:
Say, what? I thought the M’s were asking for Melky Cabrera. This Yankees-Mariners on-again off-again deal has morphed into something totally unrecognizable. I wonder what the deal REALLY is…?
Olney has changed his story so many times on that trade it’s disgusting. I don’t even think he’s really thinking about it anymore, he just throws a dart at a chart of a baseball field and whatever position the dart lands closest to he spews out of his mouth. I’ve lost a lot of respect for him over the last few months on this and other stories where he’s done similar “work”.
Pretty much everywhere else has had a similar story: top outfielder, higher-grade (but not HIGH grade) pitcher.
How about this variation…
Instead of asking for a prospect back, why don’t the M’s ask NY to pick up Batista or Vidro too? Batista could be a useful SP/RP for the Yankees. Vidro would just add to the salary dump. Either way, while the M’s still don’t get a prospect back from the Yankees, they get additional value out of the trade. Not carrying Batista and Washburn’s salaries next year would be great for the team, as Dave pointed out.
Trading the Bus and Batista to the Yankees would get the M’s to about $70M of committed payroll in 2009. If there was a compelling trade available for JJ, that would take the team to $65M of comitted payroll. Take would give the M’s room to improve the infield defense by acquiring a plus 1B, 2B, and SS.
There’s more at play here though.
1. Lee Pelekoudas is just holding the bag for the next GM.
2. They’ve made it clear they don’t want to make any major moves now until the new GM is inserted…unless they’re blown away by the offer.
3. How much money will the M’s save by trading him now vs. waiting until the offseason to trade JW? $4 Million??
4. It’s the Yankees. I hate the Yankees so on one hand…we save some money. On the other hand…we tell the Yankees to take a hike. Either way…I’m happy!
So really…the number we’re talking about here is $4 Million. Trade him now and save $4 Million. That’s nothing really (except…I wish they would just give me $4 Million because it’s nothing).
So back to the original point…the M’s are posturing. It really isn’t that much money they save now by trading him rather than waiting to the offseason. They’re stating the obvious to everyone to convince the Yankees to pony up if they want to get it done because they haven’t “blown away†management with any offer so far.
Yep…all obvious. So, why rag on the M’s for stating this? There’s other things to worry about.
Because he wont be worth picking up his hole contract in the off season. We would only be able to unload a piece of it. Unloading now means, he’s all gone. But, during the offseason we’ll lose more money then “just 4 million”
You think Carlos Lee is a horrible player? He would be the best hitter on our team if we had signed him…
You think Carlos Lee is a horrible player? He would be the best hitter on our team if we had signed him…
Damning with faint praise.
I think Spanky is right. I have nothing to base this on, but I have a distinct feeling that Pelekoudas has been ordered to DO NOTHING, unless some team really comes in and makes an offer that can’t be turned down.
And given the Mariners’ tradition of buying high and selling low, no other MLB team is going to make such an offer.
Arthur to Florida for a potentially decent pitcher couldn’t be turned down. I guess.
As a Yankee fan, I pray that Washburn does NOT get traded to the Yankees.
Seattle is dealing from a position of great weakness but acting otherwise. They’re on track to be the 1st team to loss 100 games with a $100 million plus payroll.
But, you already know this.
The Mariners have already had to suck it up & eat the rest of Sexson’s ludicrous contract. What happens if they stubbornly hang on to Washburn & he gets seriously hurt?
Like that never happens to a pitcher…
That’s another $14 million that won’t be available for the Mariner farm system, scouting, & player development.
$14 million is about how much my Yankees spent this year in signing drafted players from the 2008 amateur draft, international free agents, & bonuses paid to over-slotted premium talent.
As for playing a game of chicken with the Yankees, GM Brian Cashman is not about to flinch on this issue, as the following article from below from last year illustrates…
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2007/03/27/cashman-were-not-going-to-be-anybodys-sugar-daddy-anymore/
The Yankees realized a long time ago that no one is going to help them. In turn, they have made it abundantly clear that they will no longer be the white knight riding in to relieve other teams of their bad contracts & expensive mistakes. Mistakes such as Seattle’s.
The Yankees will no longer be ANYONE’S Sugar-Daddy.
They may, however, be the Angles’ bitch once more come October — if they manage to grab the WC and run into them in the first round again, that is.