Teammates Hate Ichiro, We Hate Teammates
In his second part of his rebuilding series, Geoff Baker writes about specific hostility towards Ichiro in the clubhouse during the early part of the season. Quoting the relevant portion:
And it was a clubhouse in need of some direction, given the problems engulfing it as the season came undone. When it came to Ichiro, who got off to a typically slow start in April and part of May, the internal turmoil nearly hit its boiling point.
“I just can’t believe the number of guys who really dislike him,” said one clubhouse insider. “It got to a point early on when I thought they were going to get together and go after him.”
The coaching staff and then-manager John McLaren intervened when one player was overheard talking — in reference to Ichiro — about wanting to “knock him out.” A team meeting was called to clear the air.
Now, you might wonder, what could Ichiro have done to foster such open anger? Clearly, he must have offended someone pretty severely.
Ichiro this year had to battle a midseason hamstring problem, and he was shifted from center field back to right because McLaren thought Ichiro was a better defender in the corner. While Ichiro is said to have recovered from his injury, his stolen-base totals dropped as the season progressed. He also did not get to some balls in the gap and the right-field corner at times, prompting more clubhouse complaints that he cared only about piling up hits instead of sitting out to heal properly.
Yep – the explanation given is that teammates want to “knock him out” because he plays when he’s less than 100% healthy. What a bastard. How could he possibly garner the respect of his teammates when he’s selfishly hurting the team by playing at a diminished level and keeping guys out of the line-up who could have helped the team win? If only he would learn how to be a clubhouse leader, such as Raul Ibanez, who would never struggle through pain, costing the team valuable runs in a playoff race while a ready replacement was waiting in the wings.
Oh, wait, that’s EXACTLY what Raul Ibanez did last year. You remember last year, right, where the team managed to stick in the race despite the fact that Ibanez had a .697 OPS the first four months of the season while playing absolutely brutal defense in left field. Remember last July, when he hit .184/.241/.262 as the team was trying to figure out if they were a legitimate enough contender to make a trade deadline acquisition, then later admitted that he had played through a painful shoulder problem that limited his power and affected his swing. Meanwhile, Adam Jones toiled in Tacoma, unable to get any playing time while Ibanez killed the team with some brutal performances.
Why was no one threatening to beat up Ibanez last year? Why is he a revered clubhouse leader while Ichiro is a selfish one dimensional egomaniac?
Because the stated reason is total crap. The players aren’t mad at Ichiro for playing hurt, even if that’s what they’ll state publicly. They’re mad at him because he’s Japanese, or he stretches by himself, or he wears funny clothing, or some other non-baseball reason. I’m not denying that they really do dislike Ichiro – this isn’t the first time this has come up – but I am calling BS on their reasoning. MLB players don’t get aggravated to violence because a guy won’t sit out when he’s hurt. Just the opposite, in fact, has been the case with Erik Bedard, where members of the team reportedly have no respect for him because he wouldn’t pitch with pain.
So, what is the real reason? It could be racially based (let’s be honest, MLB players aren’t the smartest crowd in the world), it could be personality based (“His shoes are pink – how gay!”), or it could be something else entirely. I have no idea, and I don’t pretend to know. But I do know this – I don’t care what a bunch of replacement level, washed up, overpaid and entitled career losers think about Ichiro’s efforts or value, and neither should the M’s front office. If Carlos Silva thinks Ichiro is selfish, then maybe Carlos Silva should look into being more selfish and pitching well enough to win a game once in a while.
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– Bill James
Time for Silva to go to the minor leagues. I think some AA ball and some long bus trips might do him some good.
I say release him, and take the money loss….write it off as bad debt, something. Get rid of this guy. He, Bedard, Washburn, and Batista…4 of our starting rotation…all sucked horribly this year, and at least 2 caused clubhouse problems. How come during a 116 win season we never heard anything? Is it because Ichiro, even in an “off” season, can still produce??? Seems to me “unknown” Silva is looking for any excuse to blame his crappy performance on.
Just because a lot of these players are overpaid doesn’t mean they’re not jealous ichiro makes more than they do.
I think the solution to all our problems is to bring Mike Cameron back.
It looks like the lightning rod theory comes into play here: The one on top takes all the hits.
I’ll never understand why some people, (coaches, players, media, fans, whatever) choose to go after Ichiro as some kind of scapegoat. He has never been a serious problem for the M’s on or off the field and should continue to be a fun player to watch in the future despite the rest of the Mariners continued retardation.
Come on Dave!!! Don’t you get it? The players were mad at Ichiro for continually showing them up and for leading by example. He made them look bad. How could they live up to the cover stories put into the press that they were all working hard but just were having bad luck all around. Ichiro on the other hand truly was working hard and playing well disproving their explanation of their poor performance and season.
This really makes me mad. And by the way, if this was going on in April, how come they’re reporting it now? I would have liked to hear this back then. Why sit on a story like that?
It’s surprising how much animus there was in the clubhouse this year. I’m not surprised they weren’t happy in general, but you had Rhodes going after Sexson repeatedly, Washburn and Bedard pretty much throwing Johjima under the bus, and now this. What the hell? I’ve never been more disgusted with this team. Ichiro deserves better than this bunch of clowns.
This really burns me up. Ichiro is one of the few bright spots on this team. Maybe the best reason to clean house next season is just to get the morons behind the Ichi-hating out of the clubhouse. You mention Ibanez playing through injury last year…what about Sexson? Mr. “comeback player of the year” apparently was playing hurt while putting up a backup middle-infielders’ OPS for the first four months of the season. Why weren’t Vidro and Sexson being plotted against by their grumbling teammates after their slow starts? If it’s not racism I’d sure like to know the reason.
FWIW, Baker keeps repeating that Washburn=Bus is wrong, and that Jarrod was misunderstood. Oh, and lots more people hate Ichi, really they do, but he just can’t tell you who.
One word….Chemistry
Was it Silva who specifically said he wanted to knock out Ichiro? I didn’t get that from the article so I’m guessing it’s been public knowledge.
It’s getting to the point where I ALMOST hope they trade ICHIRO! for his own sake. He doesn’t deserve this shit.
All the losing and now a bunch of jealous assholes that can’t even hold his jock…
Screw them all…
I think most of us are basing it on this
funny how these stories of disgruntled teammates and rumors of selfishness only showed up as the losing seasons piled up.
This isn’t Ichiro’s problem, it is his teammates’ problem. Ever noticed that when Ichiro shows up to play for the AL All-stars, the other AL all-stars love having him around. They respect him and find him likeable and engaging. David Ortiz, someone who is always mentioned a great clubhouse leader, likes Ichiro’s presence on the all-star team. Maybe the M’s should try to find more all-star caliber players to enhance both the clubhouse chemistry and the ability to win games.
I remember that but it doesn’t mean Silva was the same person who caused the team meeting by saying he wanted to knock out Ichiro.
I also remember Silva complaining that some teammates just cared about getting their two hits a night. Since only about three or four M’s actually hit worth a damn this year, there is a 25 to 33 percent chance that he was talking about Ichiro.
I mean, come on, getting two hits a night, what a jerk.
Tek has it right on…the Ms that are against ICHIRO are probably not Ibanez and Beltre…it’s probably the other 20 or so chumps that suck…I’m sure a good team, with good players, would love to have ICHIRO! in the clubhouse…
Actually, a story in one of the papers commented that Ichiro and Ibanez get along rather nicely. Ibanez teaches Ichiro some Spanish, and Ichiro teaches Ibanez some Japanese.
Allow me to play “Mariner’s Manager for a Minute.” The roster could be divided up into two groups of players, A and B.
Players in group A are players that, if they came to me and said “I have a serious problem with Ichiro” I would ask them to sit down and tell me about it, and I would be inclined to see if I couldn’t broker some sort of peace accord between them and Ichiro. Players in group B are players that if they came to me and said that, I would be inclined to pick up the phone, call the GM and, with the player standing there in front of me, say “Bill/Lee/Whoever, you should get rid of Player B, he’s a clubhouse problem and he’s lost my confidence.”
Guys in group A? Hmmmm.
Felix.
Beltre.
JJ.
maybe Morrow.
maybe Lopez.
There’s probably also a Group C, guys perhaps getting wrong ideas from some of the veterans. These guys I would tell to stop worrying about Ichiro and focus on their own development, and warn them not to screw up their careers by getting involved in clubhouse politics.
Guys in group C:
Morrow, Clement, RRS, Reed, Wlad, any of the September callups.
Of course, I’m not “Mariner’s Manager” for a minute, or any other duration. This looks like another example of the “most experienced coaching staff in history” failing on an epic scale.
Wonderful. Another reason to hate this sinkhole of a season.
There is one distinct difference between Ibanez and Ichiro though;
Ichiro does try to pad up his stats in meaningless games;
Like trying to bunt in the 8th or 9th inning when down by 5 runs or more; trying to steal a meaningless base when down by 5+ or leading by 5+. Ibanez does not do such things – mostly because he cannot and does not have skills to get a bunt single or steal a base, but teammates/fans see it differently.
Even in a losing meaningless crap of a season where we lost 100 games, Ichiro’s claim to fame is the 200 hits and the record of 8 consecutive 200 hit seasons – who cares ?????? Thankfully Bud Selig didnt show up for this one to give him a trophy.
Individual stats are nice, but the team winning is all thats important in baseball; Ichiro cares equally about his personal stats and thats what makes teammates mad.
True, Ichiro has talent – but he is no Edgar – a kind of player who is selfless, plays entirely for the team and is well respected. Ibanez does not have the talent level of Edgar, but he does play 100% for the team and gives it his all – and hence commands respect from players and fans.
The question is not – who is more important to a team; both types of players – players with supreme talent like Ichiro and players who are selfless and play hard (like Ibanez) are important to a team; its when you have both together as a package (like Edgar), you become a true superstar and HOF type player. Ichiro is unfortunately not on that level IMHO. (though this is debatable)
@ bakomariner:
Why couldn’t it be Beltre? There’s nothing in Baker’s story that confirms it’s not him, just as there’s nothing which confirms that it is. Heck, it could even be Felix. Why not? What does it even matter?
That’s what makes this such a worthless exercise. In the absence of facts (which Baker refuses to provide, as it would predictably cause problems for his ability to get players to open up to him in the future), this whole exercise is meaningless speculation.
You can say it’s probably some of the lousy players that are making these statements about Ichiro, largely because the M’s have plenty of those. And yes, it must be more than Silva if this was an issue in 2007, before he joined the team. But any speculation beyond that is just guessing games.
As much as you guys like Ichiro here, I think it’s a bit disingenuous (and biased) to just assume that the rest of the M’s clubhouse is either a bunch of morons or bigots for disliking him. That MIGHT be true, but I think a simpler, more reasonable explanation is that there might be something genuinely unlikeable about him.
I’m not ever going to be one who would trust or defend Baker’s analysis of a situation, so I’m hardly saying I think Baker got his ANALYSIS right, but let’s not completely discount his REPORTING on an issue (which you’ve praised in the past) just because you don’t like what is being reported.
I have no idea (or stake) in whether Ichiro is likeable or a good clubhouse guy or not. I just don’t think it’s the most solid argument to make that just because some people don’t like the guy YOU like, they must be racist idiots.
Bravo
No one is “discounting” the reporting as false.
And in regard to whether or not Ichiro is likeable or not, draw a T-bar graph. On one side put people who like Ichiro. This would include Ibanez, Lou [PINIELLA!!!], David Ortiz. On the other side put up a list of people who don’t like him. This might (and I stress might) include Silva and other M’s who are really, really bad. With which group are you willing to cast your lot.
oh, swell. after a “news update” that was just the line about ‘bodily harm’, KJR and its callers will now be addressing the topic.
me, I’m going to lunch.
(Apologies for the long post, but someone needs to say it).
My dream scenario for the new manager’s speech on opening day 2009:
“As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you’re unconvinced that a particular plan of action I’ve decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo. Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion…
(Shows picture of Silva pitching in Iowa for the class A Corn Throwers).
“The price you pay for bringing up Ichiro as a negative is… I send your ass to class A ball. Just like Silva here. Now if any of you son of b*tches got anything else to say, now’s the *%$@ing time!”
Having been involved in team sports, I have had my share of sucking, and also being very good. There’s always one guy/girl who is fa above the rest in talent, and they stand out. When the team is doing badly, and the stand-out is still producing, people tend to become jealous. Personally, I tried to become MORE like that person. I was man enough to realize that I was sucking, and admitted it. It didn’t really matter to me if I “liked” the guy, or if he was “likeable”…he was the best player on the team.
This harkens back to the heated discussions about “clubhouse chemistry”…which brings up the question….has anyone asked Willie BoomBoom what HIS opinion is???
Tek,
I understand your point, but there are too many unknowns to “pick a side” as it were. Which is exactly MY point.
For all I know, Ibanez, Pinella and Ortiz are horrible judges of character, and the mysterious “sources” who dislike Ichiro are really good judges of character. I simply don’t know.
My objection was that this post (and some of the comments) seemed to me to make snap judgments that whoever dislikes Ichiro must have illegitimate grounds to do so — and the only justification for that stance seems to be the USSM really likes him as a player, and therefore those that disagree MUST be wrong.
I don’t think it’s about picking sides. It’s about testing whether the “facts” presented in Baker’s article are trustworthy, and if they are, if the players’ viewpoints have validity to them. Not a knee jerk reaction like someone just insulted your girlfriend. 🙂
Finally, I’ll just say that having superior baseball skills doesn’t necessarily equate to having good people skills. There are plenty of great ballplayers who are real jerks, just as I’m sure there are plenty of marginal players who are great people.
Although I will say that if we have to pick sides, I’d like not to be on Silva’s side. 🙂
Well, now that KJR callers are on the case, this should be resolved in a polite, intelligent manner.
From the NBCsports.com story, “Ichiro Suzuki is so unpopular in the Seattle Mariners’ clubhouse that teammates considered doing physical harm to the All-Star outfielder earlier this season”.
I don’t like the general term “teammates” without a qualifier, and I don’t like the references above to “the players”, as if it’s ALL the other players in the clubhouse.
No doubt it’s 2 or 3 of the worst malcontents who actually contemplated physical mayhem; it’s scary to think it’s taken TWO conferences by two different managers to halt this kind of thinking.
I want to know who these idiots are, and I want them gone, and I want this story to follow them and their future careers around like Carl Everett’s non-belief in dinosaurs. I don’t care who they are.
Perhaps it got lost in the shuffle, or else I missed references to it in the posts, but did anyone else read Jerry Brewer’s column? You know, the one in which he states:
Personally, I thought that poor hitting and fielding were really big problems, and maybe talent evaluation, too, but I’m just a schnook in Canada, not a paid sports journalist.
I think it’s safe to assume that Silva was one of the people angry at Ichiro, perhaps even the one who was threatening physical violence about him. His statements and behavior in the past definitely make a good case for that. However, I don’t think we should be assuming anything else about who was or was not complaining about Ichiro.
Baker did say in his latest update that the full answer of who complained about Ichiro would “shock many of you,” and while I can’t say I know which of his readers he’s thinking of, it sounds like it’s likely that fan favorites Beltre, Felix, and Putz could be among the crowd. That’s not to contradict any of what Dave said above (which I think is completely on-target) — just a reminder that when we argue that the anti-Ichiro crowd is motivated by stupid and/or racist reasoning, we’re not just talking about the guys we already hate.
Do you have evidence to support this statement?
I coach soccer. In order to build a good soccer team you have to have 2-3 superstars and a bunch of really good role players that understand their job is to work really hard to make the superstars as successful as they can be. The same strategy applies to basketball and a lot of other team sports.
Baseball, due to [its] discrete outcomes and [its] design of an individual game wrapped up in a team sport is a little different. However, the psychology still applies. Mediocre players shouldn’t think of themselves as superstars. Their job is to support the superstar. If they (Silva) can’t grasp that, then they need to be cut loose.
This is also a problem that results when you have a bunch of players on the club signed to mid level free agent contracts. You’ve invested too much money in them to cut them loose and you can’t get any return on investment for them if you try and trade them.
Pay big bucks for superstars, treat them as such. Build the hard working portion of the team through the draft. Fill in the middle with players that understand their place on the team and can easily be cut loose if needed.
The only time you are screwed is if one of your stars decides he wants to leave.
Micronos,
I am talking about likeability from a purely baseball perspective. If Lou Pinella thinks highly of Ichiro as a baseball player and enjoyed managing him for two seasons, well, that carries a lot of weight with me.
And the general USSM stance is not that people are not allowed to dislike Ichiro, but that, from the reporting we have at hand, there seems to be no grounds for being angry at Ichiro. If Baker reports that Ichiro insulted the honor of other players’ wives and mothers, then sure, threaten him with physical harm. But not diving for balls and playing through an injury, and playing decently, is not an excuse to be angry with him to the extent to desire to hurt him.
Except if you’ll read Dave’s post this is not at all the point he’s making — it’s that the stated reasons are not the actual reasons, and we don’t know the actual ones.
It can’t be Putz. He was a big fan of the Ichiro bobblehead.
I fail to see what is so bad about padding your stats.
Aren’t meaningless games exactly the place he should do that? If they’re meaningless, then what he does during them can’t make any material difference to the team, right?
Gods, these players are dumb.
This is a Manager’s job, I think. You’re a MANAGER. MANAGE your staff. Tell them they’re behaving like idiots.
Ichiro is the best thing about this team, both on and off the field, and he has been for years. If I’m the Mariners I’d ask MLB to put these malcontents on the restricted list.
Thank God that’s not what they said, then, right?
They said it was NOT for the reasons given in the article, not that is WAS for any other specific reason.
I don’t think that follows. We have no idea what he thinks would shock “many of us.” I think it is unfair to throw around names of people who we have no reason to suspect, just because we have no reason to suspect them.
This whole thing stinks, as does the reporting. Using anonymous quotes makes the whole thing play like it’s Ichiro’s fault.
You suck, media.
Hey, Baker sucks. Big surprise. What a revelation. What a coward.
Maybe “pad up stats” just means “get hits, stolen bases, etc., once the game is already put away.” Of course, then it will follow that all good players pad their stats (including Ibanez), except I guess high-leverage relievers (if there are any of those any longer).
Ichiro has of course publicly admitted that winning isn’t his only priority. He also thinks that baseball players should put on a show for the fans and make the game worthwhile for them to watch. Maybe that is why he steals bases in low leverage situations (if in fact he does do this very often, for which we need some evidence).
In any case who cares if someone pads his stats? What, is it more noble to “selflessly” strike out and get picked off once the game is out of reach?
As the wife of a long-time judo teacher and expert, I’d like to see Carlos Silva or one of those other characters take on Ichiro one-on-one. Ichiro probably would whip his @$$.
As a slightly-built youth, Ichiro might have learned a bit of Japanese martial arts expertise. Even a bit of non-aggressive judo balance-imbalance techniques would put Carlos Silva or others of his ilk flat on his back in no time…
Any Silva-Ichiro fight would begin with Silva shouting “Get in my belly!”
(emphasis mine in above quotes)
I don’t want to get into too much he said, she said here, but actually the original post implies TWICE that the unknown people who dislike Ichiro might be racist. Twice.
Bringing up racism (w/out any facts to support it) is a cheap way to try to undermine someone’s opinion. And implying someone is racist, or not very smart, or washed up, or a loser, just because that (mystery) person DISAGREES w/ you is not solid analysis, nor an attempt to get at objective reality. And this post does all of those things.
This is un-freaking-believable!!
Let me get this straigh! Mariners are down 10-0. I’m up to bat. I should NOT get a hit because the game is basically over and I would just appear to be padding my stats. Or, the Mariners are winning 10-0 and I’m up to bat so I shouldn’t get a hit because it would look like padding my stats.
So, the philosophy of any of you defending this is that there comes a point in a game when players should stop playing like professionals and just make an out so everyone can go home? Or maybe because some player needs to go hit the buffet before the GM closes it down?
I can NEVER remember any situation that I saw Ichiro doing something to jepardize a win in order to pad his stats. Whoever is writing this crap needs to clarify exactly how you pad your stats in a BAD way.
Ok, I agree that his main point is as you describe. I’ll drop my line of argument after this post in order that the main point doesn’t get lost.
I think the original post seems reasonable if you take out the last paragraph. It’s the last paragraph that’s more in the “don’t you insult my girlfriend” camp than it is in the “Baker’s analysis doesn’t make sense” camp. That’s what I had an issue w/.
Anyway, thanks all for discussing my (dissenting) viewpoint w/ civility and honest disagreement. I really appreciate and respect that.
The post doesn’t imply that they might be racist. It lists that as one of several so-far-unstated reasons for why they might not like Ichiro. And without knowing, we don’t know.
Not mentioning racism as a possible motivation for what are supposedly deep divides in a fractured clubhouse would ignore history.
hasn’t his manager pointed out that Ichiro’s stolen bases went down with a change how he was pitched? “It’s almost like a memo went out to all the other clubs,” manager Jim Riggleman said. “They’re all doing the same, pitching quick and slidestepping.”