Fontaine shown the door
This is a bummer. Larry Stone reports that Zduriencik fired Mariners scouting director Bob Fontaine yesterday. Looks like a case of having too many cooks in the kitchen and it sounds heavy handed…
One source said that Fontaine was called into a meeting with Zduriencik on Monday and informed that he was being dismissed. According to the source, “He didn’t even have a chance to fight for his job.”
Fontaine reportedly informed his Mariners scouting staff of his dismissal in a voice mail.
In what could be related news, Zduriencik is reportedly brining in two of his scouts from Milwaukee—Tony Blengino (whom Dave linked to the other day) and Tom McNamara.
According to industry sources, the Brewers have agreed to let Zduriencik, who was named Seattle’s GM last Wednesday, hire two members of his Milwaukee scouting staff.
Those are expected to be Blengino and Tom McNamara, Milwaukee’s East Coast crosschecker and the man credited with scouting and signing Prince Fielder. It is not known yet what positions they will hold in Seattle.
Blengino, 44, just finished his third season as assistant scouting director in Milwaukee under Zduriencik. A former certified public accountant, Blengino is a member of the Society of American Baseball Research and has a strong background in statistical analysis.
I understand wanting to have “your guys” underneath you, but I’m not a fan of this move. I know we don’t know who will replace Fontaine, but we do know that he was good at his job. I wish the best of luck to Fontaine in his future endeavors and sincerely hope that Bob Engle doesn’t suffer the same fate.
Bob Fontaine’s drafts with the Mariners brought us…
2004: Matt Tuiasosopo, Rob Johnson, Mark Lowe & Michael Saunders
2005: Jeff Clement & Justin Thomas
2006: Brandon Morrow, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Nathan Adcock, Adam Moore & Kam Mickolio
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Dennis Raben, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, Luke Burnett
Sounds like Zduriencik wanted to bring in his own guy. You’d think being in the scouting game he’d know Fontaine’s skills were valuable but, then again, maybe he wants to promote a bud who deserves a chance.
Meh. So Long and Thanks For All The Fish, Fontaine.
Yeah, I worked restaurants for tooo many years and I saw the exact same thing. A new manager takes over a successful but it isn’t HIS operation. So instead of allowing it to run on autopilot with the current staff, he brings in all his OWN people regardless of the (often poorer) results. I sure hope Z-man knows what he’s doing because this fanbase has him on a very short leash.
So the housecleaning begins, though it sucks that Fontaine had to get swept away along with it. But it looks like Jack Z is planning on turning us into Milwaukee West, only with a bigger budget.
Godspeed, Bob. One of the few bright spots in an otherwise dismal era of M’s baseball.
Looks like the house-cleaning has begun. Really sucks that Bob Fontaine was the first to go. He was one of the bright spots in this organization.
Simply because other personnel weren’t very good at their jobs, the organization falls into a deep hole. This, of course, caused them to hire a GM with a ton of scouting experience/player evaluation skills who then sets to push out the old and bring in the new as expected. Sadly, in this case, Bob Fontaine falls into the “old.”
I wish Fontaine well and hope he’s blessed with another opportunity soon. He deserves it.
No doubt about it – this sucks. Fontaine was one of the few things this organization did well the last five years, and I understand why he was let go, but that doesn’t make it any more of a good idea.
Unless he wants to take some time off, he won’t make it 24 hours without an offer from another club.
Yeah, I’m betting it’s related — I’m figuring he kicked Fontaine to the curb to open up his job for Blengino. Not a good first move, and not a good sign for the future. Not good at all.
Well, I hope someone who gets an interview with him soon busts his chops a bit about this. It’s really too bad, I’d imagine if Fontaine were going to quit, he’d have already. Lame.
FWIW, Z worked with Fontaine for ca. 10 years with the Angels.
I don’t understand you guys …
Z brings in a card-carrying SABR member as the new Scouting Director and you are moaning about Fontaine losing his job?
I thought you wanted a stats geek in charge.
I hope this is just the beginning, I think Z should fire just about everybody in the M’s organization and start with a clean slate.
Fontaine may have been good at his job, but Z is better (or so we are told) so it should not have been a surprise that he would clean out the old scouting staff and bring in his own.
I think this is a GOOD sign … because it shows NOBODY is safe in the M’s organization. Time for fresh blood from bottom to top to get this team moving in the right direction.
“Tony Blengino, the top assistant of Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik when he was scouting director in Milwaukee, is expected to join Zduriencik’s staff in Seattle. …….Blengino is a member of the Society of American Baseball Research and has a strong background in statistical analysis.”
What do you think?
A step in the right direction?
What’s hard NOT to understand? REALLY????
Even someone who’s good at his job?
Now, THAT’S stoopid ™. And a bad sign. It sends a bad message to the organization, because you don’t know what it takes to keep your job.
I don’t understand you guys …
Read more, assume less.
Z brings in a card-carrying SABR member as the new Scouting Director and you are moaning about Fontaine losing his job?
You’re setting up a false dichotomy where Blengino couldn’t have been hired unless Fontaine was fired.
I thought you wanted a stats geek in charge.
I thought we wanted the best run organization possible.
I hope this is just the beginning, I think Z should fire just about everybody in the M’s organization and start with a clean slate.
Baby, meet bath water.
Terrible news…my jaw dropped this morning…two guys they should keep, and one is gone…
Terrible way to start the day…
I’m sure that Jay-Z could have brought in his own people AND kept Fontaine…
This might hinder the franchise from moving forward while Z is in charge…
Who wants to work for a boss that fires you if you do a GOOD job…
Terrible, terrible move…
Losing Fontaine isn’t necessarily a “good” thing, but it’s been the consensus for a few years now that a house cleaning has been needed. Many (here and elsewhere) have tossed around terms like “top to bottom” and now are pissed because it’s begun. The truth is that none of us know whether this will be a positive or a negative until we see what Z and the new guys do in the coming years.
Which superstar was it again that Fontaine brought in who has carried this team to success…….?
We are losing the guy who drafted a relief pitcher in the first round for a franchise that really needs hitters.
Good Luck Bob.
Great first move by Z.
Lew-
How do we know it was Bob who had the final say on drafting Fields?
That pick was more like a “save the team now” move…I would be the higher ups told him to pick the player that would help the team win the fastest…
You’re setting up a false dichotomy where Blengino couldn’t have been hired unless Fontaine was fired.
Zduriencik might not have been able to hire Blengino without having a promotion to offer. And it seems that by far the most natural promotion would be to Fontaine’s job.
Whenever I see lists of draft picks playing in the major leagues, the Mariners are towards the bottom (even counting the guys we trade away). Baseball America usually rates us in the middle of the pack as far as organizations go. Looking over the Mariner roster we don’t have a bunch of our draft picks playing in the All Star Game like some other teams. And watching season after season of swing-at-anything youngsters in Everett (often leading the league in strikeouts) made me wonder about how we chose to draft these guys.
Fontaine was always a darling here at ussmariner, but personally I can’t see that he’s anything better than average. No big loss.
I’d have to agree. I don’t like this move. You can’t have to many good baseball minds in the org. If Fontaine wanted to stay I’d at least try to keep him around.
Lol Bako–
That would be like asking “how do you know Bob drafted any of the guys in this argument?”
Fontaine was the scouting director, just like Bavasi was the GM, etc.
I’m not saying that Fontaine is not a good guy or good at his job, it’s sad when anybody loses their job, but I think it shows that Z is a “take no prisoners” kind of guy and will do what HE thinks is best to turn the M’s organization around and not care whose feet he steps on.
I respect that.
Whenever there is a company housecleaning, good people get swept out with the bad, that’s just the way it goes.
As many have said, Fontaine will land a gig somewhere else.
Z is clearly putting his stamp on the organization so he will sink or swim with his own people in place. You can’t blame him for that.
Is Fontaine awesome because he drafted Clement over Braun, or because he drafted Morrow over Lincecum? LMK
I believe many of us are less upset that he was fired, and more upset at the way Fontaine was fired.
galaxieboi – Unless you were in the room when it happened, you have no idea in which way he was let go.
“Is Fontaine awesome because he drafted Clement over Braun, or because he drafted Morrow over Lincecum? LMK”
Fontaine is good because he helped stock and replenish the M’s farm system. Look at the list that Conor provided. Of course one bats 1.000. Yet I don’t know how anyone could say that Fontaine was not good at what he was paid to do.
I’d be more upset if I saw more successful major league players on that draft list.
I understand the move. Z is coming in w/ a new way of doing things, something the M’s badly need. Having too many soldiers schooled in the old way can ultimately hurt what you’re trying to accomplish, even if they’re GOOD soldiers.
It’s just nice to see some change happening finally.
I don’t think anyone is saying Fontaine isn’t/wasn’t good at his job. I’m just of the mind that people are blowing this move out of proportion simply because they’re incapable of approving any move made by the M’s.
The fact is that none of those guys listed are currently lighting the baseball world on fire at this stage in their careers. I don’t think this move cripples the M’s in any way.
galaxieboi – Unless you were in the room when it happened, you have no idea in which way he was let go.
Uh huh.
That’s pretty vague. It’s apparent that Z has decided on a direction and Fontaine didn’t fit in. He made a decision and is making the necessary moves to set it in motion.
I doubt highly he called Bob in and told him to “get the F out!”. I’m sure he just let him know that he had made a decision and that he wished him good luck…like a professional would do.
I’m hoping this works out for the best, but I can see two arguments here:
1) Let Fontaine go because Zduriencik thinks that he’d disagree with Blengino and he wants a front office that is on the same page.
2) Keep Fontaine so you have more good baseball minds and more opinions to throw around reaching a wider range of players and hopefully drafting better. This is to mean that they think disagreements in the front office can be productive.
I can see it either way, but I’d lean toward keeping any talent the Mariners already have (like Fontaine) and adding Z’s people to that mix- creating an environment where they might disagree occasionally but could be better for it.
Or I can just blame this on Chuck Armstrong and give Zduriencik a pass on this one.
The good news is Fontaine is being replaced by someone we have reason to think will be good. The bad news is the team isn’t making forward progress with this move. Scouting wasn’t one of the major problems. If Zduriencik had addressed some of the more obvious problems first, replacing Fontaine with his guy later on wouldn’t raise so many questions.
As to “how” Fontaine was let go, well, BBOneFive is right that we don’t know exactly how it went down, but if we believe Larry Stone (and he’s one of the good reporters), it wasn’t handled great from a people-management POV. Remember that people management is a big difference between being a GM and being a scout (even a scouting director). DePo got into trouble by not handling the people part of his job well.
Oh well, not the best start to the Reign-of-Z.
Last week, my positive comments about the Zduriencik hiring were called “spin” and people questioned whether I was just trying to sell a hire I didn’t believe in.
Today, I note that this firing sucks because Fontaine he’s a terrific scout, and it’s noted that I’m incapable of saying anything good about the organization’s moves.
Sometimes, I’m not sure why we bother with comments. Be smarter, people.
Can anyone argue that the M’s draft history with Fontaine is anything except mediocre? I’m not taunting or anything I would really like to hear it because I cannot see anything special from the last 5 years of drafting.
No one here knows what Z is thinking. He just made a major organizational change within a week of being hired. That does not sound bad at all when this organization has been terrible for 6 years.
I don’t know what shots Fontaine calls, but gun to your head who would you have on the team Blengino or Fontaine? I know it doesn’t have to be an ultimatum, but how do any of you know that wasn’t the case? What if Fontaine didn’t want to share any power? Give it some time… we all know about 10% of what is going on right now.
Bob Fontaine’s drafts with the Mariners brought us…
2004: Matt Tuiasosopo, Rob Johnson, Mark Lowe & Michael Saunders
2005: Jeff Clement & Justin Thomas
2006: Brandon Morrow, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Nathan Adcock, Adam Moore & Kam Mickolio
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Dennis Raben, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, Luke Burnett
Jack Zduriencik’s drafts with the Brewers brought them…
2000: Corey Hart
2001: J.J. Hardy, Manny Parra
2002: Prince Fielder
2003: Rickie Weeks, Tony Gwynn, Jr.
2004: Yovani Gallardo
2005: Ryan Braun
2007: Matt LaPorta
Be smarter people?
How about don’t call your readers dumb because a few of them disagree with you.. You are a blogger, no matter what you write people will criticize it.
I loved the positivity last week, I loved the Z support and Kenji article, but this site is so negative sometimes. You can say you think the move is suspect, but please don’t say “no doubt about it- [it] sucks” when you hardly know what is happening.
Yeah, drafting Clement and Tuiasasopo! There’s a real genius!
Strike me down as one who likes this move.
Nice research Oolon.. don’t forget about Gamel though.
Doesn’t Oolon’s post show that we should trust Z with scouting and drafting calls. At least so much that we can wait and see what his plan is with the firing before we jump on him?
Yes, be smarter.
Why shouldn’t Dave call people dumb when THEY MAKE DUMB ARGUMENTS?
You’re defending yourself when Dave is criticizing the arguments. It’s as if you’re already conceding your argument is dumb.
A) Tuaiasopo was a third round pick, since the Ms had no first rounder.
B) At the time, Clement did indeed look good.
20/20 hindsight, people.
Except firing Fontaine was NOT a scouting and drafting call. That’s a personnel call. Different thing.
Matthew 7:20
Matthew 7:19
Can anyone please?
1. Read Oolon’s post and don’t forget about Gamel
2. Understand that you hardly know what exactly went on here regarding Fontaine’s attitude/plan, Z’s plan, etc.
3. Tell me why you can criticize Z for doing something in an area that he might be the best in the game at.
Gwangung-
It is a personnel call that we can be almost positive was made to achieve better results in the scouting/drafting area… nice try though
Can I suggest that you just stop talking for a while? Sometimes, it’s really just better to say “you know, I don’t know enough to have an opinion here”.
That’s what I was saying the whole time.. Did I not say multiple times that we hardly know what is going on here and that you should wait before you criticize Z?
Right, because my knowledge and your knowledge are equal…
Oh I forgot your knowledge is “no doubt” good.
All I have been saying is look at what Z has done, realize that you and almost everybody else has little idea what exactly went on, and calm down. I never said it is a good move.
It is a personnel call that we can be almost positive was made to achieve better results in the scouting/drafting area… nice try though
Almost certain? Was this one of the multiple times you stated that “we hardly know what is going on here”?
Dave,
I enjoy visiting this site and reading your opinions. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don’t. Your visitors give you respect and I hope that you can eventually cool your jets and let other people have their say. Without you and Derek, this site wouldn’t be nearly as informative as it is, but without your visitors and their opinions, your site wouldn’t matter.
Wow, that’s pretty arrogant. No offense Dave, but you don’t know the poster from Adam and have zero clue of his level of knowledge.
It’s absolutely up for debate as to whether Fontaine being let go is a good or bad thing. If he didn’t fit into Z’s plan, he didn’t fit….Or do you know more than Jack Zduriencik too?
galaxieboi,
Sorry, that was dumb on my part. I assume Z would only be looking to improve the team. If we find out later that Z was doing this for a completely personal agenda, then yes it was a bad move. I just think we should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume (for now) he is trying to improve the team.
The Morrow vs Lincecum pick is what really makes me wonder who was calling the shots on draft day.
If Fotaine was so good how could he NOT pick a pitcher in his own backyard who was blowing away the Pac-10?
I’m no baseball expert, but even I thought Lincecum was a “no brainer.”
I can’t understand how they could NOT pick Lincecum, even though Morrow is also a pretty good pitcher.
I sure wish somebody could figure out if it was Bavasi who picked Morrow or Fontaine because that stands out as a huge missed opportunity in my mind.
Yep, that’s just what this thread needed – more Lincecum fanboys who have no idea why he wasn’t picked. That’ll raise the level of discussion.
I’m reserving my judgment on the Fontaine firing. I do think Fontaine was not the most pressing problem, per se….if problem he was. But, this move will certainly have a corresponding move that will have to be watched to determine its merit.
But, it doesn’t escape me that this move is in the jurisdiction of which Zduriencik was noted as being extremely strong: scouting. Ipso facto, I have to wait and see how it turns out. Fontaine is a good baseball man who I have no doubt will be hired somewhere.
When I first saw the bulletin Fontaine had been canned, I’ll admit my gut-reaction was a guttural “Noooooooo…”…but Z’s credentials are enough to sway me from blasting away and vilifying the move.
Yet.
On the surface, I think, as a personnel move, this was not particularly adroit. This could have been managed better, saving face for both sides. I could have seen an announcement of a mutal parting of the ways; the abruptness and suddeness is not very encouraging.
I think it’s fair to assume he’s doing what he believes to be what’s best for the team. This doesn’t mean that I (or anyone else for that matter ) have to agree with him.
The M’s could’ve hired Antonetti and there certainly would’ve been decisions made that many here would’ve had an issue with.
Or do you know more than Jack Zduriencik too?
Well, he knew more about Felix’s pitch selection and how to make better use of it than the M’s coaching staff a couple years back.
Well then ignore it…
I think if the M’s want to build an organizational philosophy from top to bottom then it’s up the the GM to hire the people they want in key roles to create that philosophy.
Z is in charge, he’s going to build his staff with his people. He’s got a plan and wants to hire his own staff to execute on the plan. I’d prefer that he assess the current organization from within before he started pulling the trigger on hiring and firing but Z’s got different ideas.
Yeah, it sucks to be Fontaine but he was in a position where he had to know that changes would come with a new regime.
SeasonTix-
Personally, I think Fontaine didn’t pick Lincecum because he feared the backlash if Lincecum didn’t pan out. If Morrow had washed out, he could argue that Morrow had all the measurables, a 6’3″ power arm that just didn’t work out. Regrettable, but no big.
But selecting a rail-thin 5’11″ (in spikes) pitcher with huge numbers, if that blows up in your face it’s twice the embarrassment. Fontaine- like any other scout worth a lick- knows that “can’t-misses” miss all the time. I just think Lincecum was a time he didn’t choose to roll the dice and trust the numbers.
It is more than possible to be happy about the Blengino hire and sad (even upset) to see Fontaine go. This didn’t have to be an either/or, and whether Jack Z. did as good or a better job over the last few years than Fontaine did is not the issue – Fontaine has clearly done a good job. I would have thought there was room enough for Z’s team AND Fontaine.
But…I am excited to have Blengino aboard, and I think it might just be the start of what Dave and many others here called for – a stats-orietned side to the scouting department. It sucks that Fontaine couldn’t be part of that stats-and-scouting team, but I’d speculate that Mike Snow might have been right – if Blengino would only come with a promotion, and was already an assistant scouting director, he wasn’t coming unless Fontaine agreed to a demotion. I doubt Fontaine would have done that, but I hope he was at least asked.
We’re not having the Lincecum discussion again in this thread.
Sorry, Jeff. Just erased it. My bad.
This thread got stupid in a hurry.
There were many people who thought that Andrew Miller was the best pitcher in the Lincecum/Morrow draft. His asking price was too high if I remember correctly.
The 2005 draft had tons of first round talent. I think Clement at #3 was a bit of a reach but I guess we could have taken Ricardo Romero or Wade Townsend. Ryan Braun, Troy Tulowitzki, Maybin, Jay Bruce, etc. would have been nice but hindsight is what it is.
Well, no bonus points for Z for getting to keep Fontaine, but it’s understandable (if regrettable) that he would do the same thing in Seattle that Bavasi did- bring some loyalists he wants to work closely with. The part where he didn’t even meet with Fontaine is probably even more unsettling- surely he’d want to pick his brain on what he’s done for getting ready for the 2009 draft?
I’m going to want to see the offseason and the managerial hire before I start having the band play “Nearer My God To Thee” on the deck of the USS Mariner, though.
That isn’t an exactly fair listing of Z’s drafts.
The M’s list you post includes a lot of guys who are solid picks, yet not ML contributors or great prospects. The Brewers picks are only big league regulars or great prospects. That is incredibly biased.
Here is a more fair listing of Zduriencik’s hits:
2000: Corey Hart
2001: J.J. Hardy, Manny Parra, Brad Nelson, Dennis Sarfate
2002: Prince Fielder
2003: Rickie Weeks, Tony Gwynn, Jr.
2004: Yovani Gallardo, Angel Salome, Lorenzo Cain
2005: Ryan Braun, Matt Gamel, Will Inman,
2006: Jeremy Jeffress, Cole Gillespie, Robert Bryson, Brent Brewer, R.J. Seidel,
2007: Matt LaPorta, Jonathan Lucroy, Caleb Gindl, Cody Scarpetta, Shawn Zarraga
2008: Brett Lawrie, Jake Odorizzi, Evan Frederickson, Seth Lintz, Cutter Dykstra
Jack’s list looks a little better when you also include his solid-yet-unspectacular picks.
I like Fontaine too, and seeing that list of prospects above makes me really appreciate his drafts. But Zduriencik also has an excellent track record.
Fontaine’s leaving is a bummer. But I don’t see the draft becoming a team weakness anytime soon.
Ouside of Lincecum, how did it get stupid in a hurry?
Seems like it started off with some harsh judgments of Z based on relatively little actual knowledge. Now it seems like people are thinking :”Hey we don’t know everything, this could be good or bad, let’s get a little more knowledge before we start jumping on our new GM”
Sounds like a little progress to me.
I’m relatively new to this site. But I probably should’ve guessed that people were tired of the whole Lincecum-should’ve-been-picked thing. Sorry for the expounding.
This is a classic example of “Beware what you ask for”….The final 3 candidates that everyone liked came down to Z, and now that he’s made a decision, everyone bails???
Give the dude more than a weeks chance please.
In the time since Fontaine took over as scouting director for the Mariners, the Milwaukee Brewers have turned exactly two draft picks into major league players – Ryan Braun and Yovanni Gallardo. Two players in five years? Clearly, the guy running those drafts wasn’t very good.
Nice cherry pick Dave!
Compare the complete lists please and see which draft is better for a ball club. 00-08 Brewers or 04-08 M’s
Man, you just don’t get it.
You can argue for days about the people taken in the drafts and for a lot of the people we’ll never know for years if it was a good pick or not. Z’s bringing in his people and the should be expected. To me the best thing about this move is that it shows that Z has the necessary autonomy to make these types of important decisions and that’s a very good thing.
I know you were making a point not to judge Fontaine off these lists. We should judge Z though. We should realize he is good at drafting and maybe we don’t know as much as him in this area and maybe we should let him do a little business in his area of expertise.
I think dave6267 and Dave are the same guy. (hilarious)
And maybe folks should realize that the firing of Fontaine is NOT about Zduriencik’s area of expertise. You’re missing the point if you think it is.
and as I mentioned earlier, it is not as if Fontaine & Zduriencik are strangers. They have had a working history, which may play into all this (as long as we are speculating fruitlessly)
The guys from the Brewers’ drafts have had longer to achieve. The Ms had decent drafts in the last couple years, and we should see some of them in the majors in the near future…
And any list with Tony Gwynn Jr. on it has no credibility…
He sucks…
Ok, NOW the thread is getting dumb…
Yeah, Little Tony is pretty bad. And, for me personally, I don’t put a lot of stock in drafting sons of famous big leaguers as elite scouting or anything.
I’m going to go play Fallout 3 for a while, and you all had better be on your best behavior by the time I get back.
JeffNye –
I’m Jealous! I wish I could use that as an escape…bottom line – Be Nice.
:rolleyes:
This all seems so simple to me: to walk in as the new boss of an organization and begin your tenure by firing one of the handful of successful people in it is a bad move. He didn’t fire Benny Looper, who has done little to justify his job; he didn’t fire Greg Hunter, about whose performance I’ll frankly admit I know nothing whatsoever; he fired a guy who’s been one of the few real bright spots in this organization over the last five years. How is that move, with that timing, with that priority, done in the way Stone reported, even marginally defensible? Regardless of anything he might do to balance it, how do you construct an argument that that move in and of itself is anything but a bad one?
To me the best thing about this move is that it shows that Z has the necessary autonomy to make these types of important decisions and that’s a very good thing.
Goooooood point, ernier.
And I’m still reserving judgment on Fontaine’s firing. Methinks the soup-water has just begun to boil around here.
I feel a lot “stoopider” after reading this thread. I’m with Mr Nye, while I wont be playing Fallout 3, I will be playing Fable 2.
Judging either scouting director by which players became major leaguers is hardly fair because of the hand-off to the player development team that occurs. For example, we don’t know how much Clement was hampered by the hyper-promotion policies of Bavasi’s regime. We also don’t know how involved the GM was (they usually are to some extent) in first round draft picks.
We know that Bavasi tended to have an affinity for taking player types (aka we need a veteran with speed or we need a slugger who doesn’t believe in dinosaurs) rather than best player available.
Is anyone else sick of the word “autonomy”?
Yeah, I think we need to move on. This thread is starting to rival a Baker comments section.
Right about here:
And for pretty much the rest of the thread you’ve been missing the point.
Dave’s original snark was about how one poster believed there was nothing but negativity coming from USS Mariner; a common criticism of the ignorant. Dave points out that not only was he positive about Zduriencik’s hiring last week, but that criticizing this move isn’t dropping a load on the entire Zduriencik hire, just this particular move.
Then you chimed in, and the misunderstandings have been flooding this thread ever since. The irony is, you’re a prime example of exactly why Dave is so exasperated. You didn’t read, you didn’t comprehend, and you acted stupid and have continued to do so.
Sorry for the bitchslap, but I come here to read thoughtful analysis and intelligent discussion and debate, and I aint getting it. Please and thank you, knock it off.
ã¯ããããã…..
IMHO, I am willing to wait until Z and his staff makes actual player personnel decisions.
If we see that his drafts are dubious and questionable at best, then we can criticize him. Of course, that won’t be borne out for a couple of years as the players work their way (or not) through the farm system. That is unless he thoroughly blows it on the draft.
What we will probably be able to grade him effectively on early in his tenure (and I know I’ve said this already) is his off-season signings/trades/releases.
So I think we just need to sit and wait to see what happens on that front, and that has already been covered in a prior post. Until then, I for one will roll with the punches.
I’m pretty sure said snark was aimed at my first comment.
Which did not, nor was it meant to call out Dave’s original post specifically. I was speaking more of the general opinion amongst many M’s fans who just aren’t happy unless they’re miserable (or seemingly so).
He was let go because organizationally its easier to start over with a clear delineation of who’s in charge. When someone goes from in charge to not in charge there is often issues that arise. That’s why Fontaine had to go. His job was essentially going to be taken over by Z’s guy and that left nowhere for Fontaine to go. Z clearly feels more comfortable working with his guys and that is understandable. There are always talent losses when there are organizational changes. Some of it is just unavoidable. We would love to live in a world where that doesn’t happen, but unfortunately its not reality. Bob did a great job. I bet the new people do as good if not better. Obviously we would rather have the two working together, but that just doesn’t happen because.
That’s what she said… Anyway…
Log me as “Much ado about nothing” Assuming Z wanted to bring in his own guy to fill Fontaine’s position, finding another spot for him might not have been something Fontaine was interested in. This gives Bob a chance to pursue a scouting director position elsewhere. Which could be good for Mr. Fontaine…
If Z plans to take on a larger role than what’s typical in the scouting department, then it might have ended up being a case of “too many cooks in the kitchen.” If I was Bob Fontaine, that wouldn’t be my ideal work environment. I’d want to work for a GM who relied on me as their scout, not some rule by committee gig.
If I had to guess: Good for Bob, Sideways for M’s.
See, it’s that “seemingly so” that makes this whole thing stupid. It’s a perception, a personal one, that Mariners fans are only happy when they’re miserable or negative about things. What’s even more stupid about it is that it’s not at all remotely true when it comes to the average common Mariner fan. The general populace is too ignorant to be upset about moves like trading for Vidro or overpaying for Washburn. THe general populace believes Vidro’s a .300 hitter and, thus, good, and that Washburn is a gamer or a gritty veteran.
While it might be unfair for us to infer your comment to be directed at only USS Mariner, you DID make the comment here. What else should one take from such a blanket statement?
And on and on and on the stupidity went.
WOuld have played a lot better as a mutual parting of the ways, and shown a much better adroitness on the part of Zduriencik.
This looks about as ham-handed and unsubtle as anything HowChuck has done.
This can be overcome with stellar years of drafting and player development, but it’s not a good start.
Speaking of stupid, can we stop calling him “Jay-Z”?
TIF, [not a board]
Is this a messageboard?
Nope.
[This is not a board]
in
three,
two,
one…
OK .. I’m really sorry I mentioned that “L” guy .. I didn’t mean to get this thread sidetracked.
TIF, Isn’t the point of a messageboard to voice ones personal perceptions and opinions?
It might be, if this was a messageboard. It isn’t. Since you apparently want a “board” that hosts sloppy thinking, unsupported opinions, and dismissively ignorant inferences about your fellow posters, I suggest you go here.
Speaking of stupid, can we stop calling him “Jay-Z�
There, you and I are in complete agreement.
Paul is totally correct. This isn’t a public forum. This is Dave’s, Derek’s and Conor’s (is Jason still around?) blog. They (and the mods) have always been more than accomodating to those of us when we were super green and just discovered USSM.
I always try to remember this is their baby and to be polite.
Wow. This is the worst comments thread this side of the Adam Jones trade.
Do people really think “you weren’t in the room so you can’t know!” is a valid argument? Do they think that makes them right?
Listen, you don’t have to agree with Dave, Derek, or Conor. Sometimes, I don’t. But this is their blog where they they express their opinions. You are a reader of their blog. They absolutely have the right to tell you when they think you are wrong, and if you want to consider that condescending, well, go away and no one will miss you.
dave6267 – why do you keep putting an emphasis on the “no doubt” phrase? Are you trying to insinuate that Dave Cameron is really Mike Blowers blogging under cover?
people are blowing this move out of proportion simply because they’re incapable of approving any move made by the M’s.
See, that’s utter crap, and you don’t even have to go back very far in the posts or comments to see that. Unless, of course, you’ve got a preconceived notion of the “people” here and thus are incapable of acknowledging that those “people” have a more nuanced perception of the team’s moves than you want to admit.
Sorry, this is the comments section of a private blog where anyone (public) is able to join and discuss topics in a “forum” type format.
You’re right. And those people can tell public commentors to shut the **** up at any time too.
Fontaine did his job so well (including following the decisions of his GM) that it may have gotten him fired. I think the biggest difference between Zduriencik’s picks and Fontaine’s picks were in the early rounds. The early rounds where players like “L” were skipped by the M’s because of their apparent avoidance of paying over slot for the pick and the same rounds that Bavasi was more likely to have wanted a particular position out of that made the pick the wrong choice in the first place. In the later rounds both Scouting Directors showed the ability to find useful players that other teams weren’t seeing. Those early picks are the most easily notable and I think Bavasi had more involvement in them causing those to be worse than they would have otherwise been. It could be that taking a closer in the first round (and other picks that stunk of Bavasi’s involvement) were reason enough for Zduriencik to say “you’re not needed here.” I really wish that they could have worked together here for years partially because Fontaine will find another job elsewhere and give that advantage to another team.
Listen to some advice from a long time reader and very infrequent poster. Read the blog. Read the comments. Learn.
If your going to post…..especially if your going to post passionately…..think about what you have learned, and use that knowledge.
If your going to make a bold claim/statement be prepared to back that claim/statement up with a well thought out response based in fact or intelligent reasoning.
If I read something Dave, DMZ, or RandomPoster says and disagree with it….the FIRST thing I’m going to do before posting is say “How will said person respond to this? What are some counter arguments to said response?”.
Maybe that explains why I post so infrequently….
Jason X USN,
Good plan….you were trained well.
If we all had such composure, there’d be no posts.
I think we should agree to disagree, and move on. This post is getting us nowhere.
*deep breath*
Commenting here is a privilege, not a right; and to be frank, I’m getting pretty close to just turning comments off on this post.
If you’re confused about the standards we expect from commenters here, I’d like to direct you to the comment guidelines and recommend you pay careful attention to the part about “But I want a good fight with hair-pulling and name-calling!â€.
Comment quality has taken a drastic downturn over the last week and a half or so, and while the mods dislike deleting posts, we will if you all can’t abide by a relatively simple set of rules and in particular show a bit more respect towards the authors.
If your only possible response to some (pretty mild) snark from Dave is to try to out-snark him, a) you’ll lose and b) you’re not contributing to the discussion here.
Is it a double standard? Absolutely. But it’s not a double standard that’s open for debate.
(and no, none of this is an invitation to debate me about comment guidelines or moderation policies; posts to that effect will go bye bye)
gwangung:
Well it certainly would have saved us from this ridiculous comment thread….
I’m guessing this gets no play at all in the media. If anything I’d guess talk radio will say this shows Z is tough, taking charge, and that this shows that the M’s are taking on a bold new direction.
Play nicely, children, or you won’t be allowed to play at all.
On one hand, I’m disappointed that a good guy with proven skills is shown the door when we need more good guys with skills, not less…and I’m less than enthused that it was done with such a fell swoop.
…but, on the other hand, perhaps we have to consider the analogy of how you beat the hell out of the toughest guy in the prison on your first day, so nobody messes with you.
So, Z doesn’t make his first personnel decision someone who doesn’t matter–but he makes it clear with his first decision that HE’S in charge and that he’ll do what he feels is best.
And yes, I realize that I’m comparing the role of Mariners GM to that of being in prison.
Allow me to link this move with a worry Derek expressed in a post last week, to wit:
So, the worry is that the M’s hiring of Zduriencik indicates they think they had the right strategy all along, just the wrong guy (Bavasi) for executing it. By making his first move the replacmeent of Bavasi’s scouting guy with his own scouting guy, Zduriencik reinforces that worry.
Maybe it’s just a case of him getting his guys. The M’s grade on the Zduriencik hiring is still “Incomplete” but this move doesn’t bump the needle towards the “A+” direction.
Well…isn’t it?
It’s called The Magoo Effect. Prepare for many more years of Perpetual Mediocrity.
Is he going to bring over the sausage race too? Maybe he and Chuckie can sponsor a cigar race?
so which version of ‘the Magoo effect’ is it that you keep bringing up?
Stone has an updated version of his piece, and the press release is up.
So Stone has Macha as the front runner for manager huh? They could do worse…
The way I read it, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel is saying he’s the front-runner for the Brewers job.
Stone says Macha is the front-runner for the Brewers’ job. He only says he is “likely to be on Zduriencik’s list of managerial candidates for the Mariners’ job,” which isn’t really the same thing as saying he’s a front-runner for the M’s job. For reasons Derek has already detailed, I’d be surprised if the M’s hired a former A’s skipper.
Hey Bob, on the way out could you take Lee Pelekoudas, Benny Looper and the rest of the old guard with ya?
Thanks.
Too bad he can’t fire Chuck Armstrong.
RE: Macha
Yep…I read that wrong…
I’m reminded of Socrates in The Apology where he says that he discovered one group of people in Athens that had knowledge: the craftsmen. Their fault–the reason that they weren’t wise–was that, because they knew about one thing, they believed themselves to have knowledge about a great deal more. There are a lot of people that read and comment on this site that know a lot about baseball statistics and player assessment. But that’s not the same thing as knowing about hiring and firing in a front office. I’m not defending Z, but I am saying that most of us aren’t really in a position to make these criticisms.
The view that you can somehow assess Zduriencik’s managerial style from this one decision is about as silly as projecting a baseball team on the basis of their first series in a season.
Do any of you personally know Fontaine or Blengino in a professional capacity? have you seen their resumes? How many of their professional decisions can you name? Do you know how well they get along with Jack Zduriencik? Baring the right sorts of answers to these question, you are not only ill-poised to assess Z’s managerial style, you aren’t even in a position to assess this particular move.
I’m not saying that the conclusions being reached here are wrong, but I don’t feel that I’m seeing anything like convincing reasons for accepting them. We are too far from the day-to-day workings of this organization (or any professional baseball organization) to make these judgments.
[deleted, meta, name-calling]
Reaction while reading that line:
HmmmmmohforcryingoutloYAAAAAAAY!
you know Lee isn’t going anywhere until he is ready for his Official Mariner Gold Watch.
OK, so Engle gets kept, good.
Lee P, meh, don’t care very much one way or the other (as long as he’s not the GM). If Z needs someone to help with the waiver rules and contracts, fine.
I’ve got no problem with sacking Fontaine (and the retention of Engle), but I am disappointed that Pelekoudas isn’t getting fired. I guess Jack decided he wanted to keep the guy around who “knows where the bodies are buried”. Hopefully Lee will get the ax once Zduriencik realizes that he’s below replacement level at making coffee…
Found this quote of the day online. Thought is was timely:
“Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact.” – George Eliot
I’m totally fine with this move. Z-man is a proven scouting evaluator that has picked a lot of good ones. I trust him when it comes to his specialty – the scouting department.
Fontained was good but this decision won’t make or break the franchise. When it comes to making decisions on players I trust Z-man’s decisions as much as Fontaine, if not more.
Hickey has quotes from Fontaine’s conference call
Unfortunate for Fontaine but a necessary step for JayZ to put a stamp on his team. Clearly Jack had his guys in mind with the move and cherry picked his lieutenants to come aboard.
Good news that LP and Engle are staying on-potential areas where the org had potential exposure with the new regime.
Judgement day will be coming-my final grade on this move will come shortly after draft day this summer.
As initial moves go, I have to say this was a curious purge.
More so HOW it came down than WHAT came down.
winning solves a lot of chemistry issues
Just read the news and I have to say that it took me by surprise–not that I thought it couldn’t happen, but I was convinced that one of Lee Pelekoudas or Benny Looper would be shown the door first.
Then again, it may be a condition given to Big Z that those 2 stay on in their current roles(or, at least some role) and can’t be removed.
Which would be somewhat of a disappointment to me, as I think some, if not all of the “old guard” needs to go for a decent rebuilding to take place. Of course, the fact that Chuck Armstrong still has his job means a true rebuild(in my estimation) can’t happen.
Ahh, well. Good luck to Bob Fontaine–although I’m sure he’ll catch on with another team fairly quickly.