Obvious question
This signing could be significant for the Mariners beyond the mere numbers Tazawa does or doesn’t put up. It used to be that Seattle was considered the destination of choice for Japanese players. At least, that was the perception. But I don’t think we can say that’s the case any longer. Whether it was Kei Igawa choosing the Yankees over the Mariners two years ago, Hiroki Kuroda picking the Dodgers over Seattle a year ago, or now Tazawa opting for Boston, it’s becoming obvious the Mariners can no longer rely on reputation or connections from ownership alone to lure Japanese players.
This team has taken a hit image-wise. And in the end, today’s modern Japanese players may be more like Americans than we think. In the end, they may pick the places offering the best money and the best chance of winning. The Mariners might do well in one of those aspects. But the other one has not been a factor in these parts for several years. One more thing at stake for Jack Zduriencik and company as they move forward. Because Tazawa, no matter what he turns into, was certainly not a bank buster.
Do you think that no-longer-sterling reputation has anything to do with the controversy generated by a blind-sourced story which alleged that the clubhouse fractured against the Japanese players, that Ichiro was so hated that his safety was in jeopardy and the team called a meeting over it*?
Because that seems like the kind of thing that would hurt a club’s ability to recruit talent from that country.
Weird it’s not mentioned there.
* oh and it turns out that didn’t happen
I think Tazawa just wanted to play for Boston. I can’t believe that 3-years, $3 million was the best offer on the table, but that’s what he took.
I’m not Japanese but I’m scared to enter the Ms clubhouse. It’s apparently a monumental rift-one that could destroy livelihoods and apparently one’s life.
Really, it goes beyond ethnicity-what player who values his safety would agree to join a clubhouse where he could potentially get inadvertently hurt in an attempt by a fellow teammate to do harm to one of the Japanese players? Wrong place, wrong time and poof!!!!!
Would you move into a neighborhood known for drive by shootings? Not if you have a healthy fear of stray bullets.
Ultimately it might not even be safe to take your family to Safeco.
This is super serious stuff.
It’s appalling that Seattle got the team laden with racist players.
Isn’t that Atlanta’s job?
Oh snap.
did any one really think the Ms were really in on the Tazawa? It sounded like Boston from the start (the way that it was NY for Matsui)
and how much does the fact that Seattle already has Ichiro & Kenji factor into a player’s decision-making? Haven’t there been examples of players not wanting to be in the shadow of another Japanese player on a team?
*Oh, but it wasn’t a team meeting, it was a series of individual meetings, and Baker got confused because a team meeting had been called in 2007, which, of course makes the initial observations about the team accurate because a series of individual meetings to address a situation equals one team meeting, and there were serious rifts in the clubs regardless of whether or not a team meeting was called.*
Just repeat this logic to yourself over and over and you will believe Baker’s initial story, or you might pass out. Either way, it is mind altering.
That doesn’t work with Tazawa and Boston though. There’s already Matsuzaka and Okajima there, so that can’t be the case.
I think if there is another reason players may have to go to a team other than their performance it would be the name brand. If you’ve noticed, the big star players have gone to historical teams:
Red Sox – Matsuzaka
Yankees – Matsui
Dodgers – Kuroda
Cubs – Fukudome
Perhaps the M’s were only considered because of Japanese ownership. But now, the players coming over want to show their stuff and prove themselves, and more often than not want to play on a winner. And that, the M’s aren’t right now.
Yeah, so. You’re claiming Ichiro wasn’t a big star player in Japan?
No, I’m not claiming that at all. Did you notice what I said after that?
no, Tazawa apparently has said Boston specifically because Matsuzaka was there.
Be glad that Igawa picked the Yankees over the M’s.
Doesn’t that conflict with your earlier argument then?
You can’t argue that Ichiro & Kenji being on the M’s deterred Tazawa because he’d be in the shadow of them when Tazawa chose Boston to be with Matsuzaka and would obviously be in the shadow of him.
Igawa was never the blockbuster pitcher while playing for the Hanshin Tigers. At best, he was an above average pitcher. And that, my friend, will generally not cut it here.
Boston is a contender every year…some athletes want to win more than anything else…
Like @bakomariner said –
Maybe Tazawa doesn’t want to go to a team that sucks, and which has frustrated Ichiro to the point of publicly hinting that he’d love to go elsewhere?
in that 2nd paragraph I wasn’t talking specifically about Tazawa, I was referring to the general discussion about Japanese players going (or not going) to teams.
Igawa didn’t choose to go anywhere. He was posted and the Yankees placed the highest bid for about $26m. Just like Ichiro didn’t choose Seattle and Matsuzaka didn’t choose Boston.
Ugh. Well, now I feel really stupid. I should’ve remembered that right from the get-go about the whole posting thing.
I suppose they could have refused to negotiate with the high-bid team if they wanted to, but that is highly doubtful.
That being said, there aren’t going to be many teams that would be able to bid for a player given the amounts big-market teams are willing to pay.
I think the argument for true FA still stands though.
Baker has been one of the most objective, up-front, straight-forward reporters I’ve ever read. He clearly explained his mix up.
I think he confused even himself with his explanation.
Aaaaahhh. Can’t help but put in a cheap shot against Baker, can you, DMZ?
Yawn. This has been explained several times before, and you look petty by trying yet again to make an issue of it.
And I find it utterly laughable that you even imply that Tazawa’s decision had anything to do with Baker’s article.
Further, your “theory” is incredibly shallow, since Igawa, Kuroda, et al. signed BEFORE Baker’s story.
Keep fishing. For all the “love” you guys have for Baker, it’s really hard to see it sometimes.
That story was reported in 08 and would not have affected the signing of Igawa or Kuroda. And if I were Tazawa, given equal offers from Boston and Seattle (which reportedly they were) I would choose Boston 11 times out of 10.
You don’t think that a story that got national play here and in Japan about one of Japan’s most prominent players having his safety threatened plays a part in players considering coming to the team or not?
At all?
Really?
I don’t see that as a cheap shot at all. If you want to talk about why Seattle might not be an attractive destination for Japanese free agents, how can you not mention this?
I find THIS comment laughable.
Y’all don’t think Japanese players think about this? Or talk about this? Remember, this isn’t just one story, but one of several that have been floating around the media over the past several years, talking about resentment of Ichiro in particular and Japanese players in general.
Not thinking it through.
I swear, there are trolls who only appear when the word ‘Baker’ is written.
If by objective you mean that he ALWAYS thinks he is right because he would know with his “inside knowledge,” or how he very rarely admits he is wrong, then yes, he is. And I am not sure that even Steven Hawking could have understood his “explanation,” which is funny considering that it has to be really hard to be thick enough to report on an issue as serious as this if you didn’t know all of the information…
It could be many reasons DMZ but it’s obvious you feel it’s about the ONLY reason. Sure you will deny this but your obvious dislike for Baker makes it obvious.
As I stated though – could be many reasons and that’s just one of them. Could also be exactly what Baker said – japanese players are just like American players and want to go to a winner – and lets face it – the last 4 years we’ve been anything but a winner. Could be that Boston/NYY is just as big there as they are here as far as high-profile places to play. Could also be that nobody even in Japan wants to play with Ichiro because of his attitude problem. Could be that they want to go some place they can shine and since Ichiro is the biggest Japanese baseball player that they feel they will always be in his shadow.
Many many reason abound – taking cheap shots at one writer is a waste of time. Many cheap shots could be taken at this site but what’s the point? won’t change anything here or on Bakers blog. And Yes Malicious – just as this site and the people who write here always think they are right all the time. You will find ego’s aplenty in the blogoshpere.
I still don’t see how that’s a cheap shot. You’re offering two more Ichiro-related reasons they might not come here — but you don’t think that widely-reported stories about Ichiro’s safety and the anti-Japanese clubhouse rift might be important?
Also, to a larger point, I don’t understand why you think I don’t like Baker, or why you’d say we always think we’re right all the time. I think we’re pretty good about that. I’m not sure what you want to see out of us.
And Yes Malicious – just as this site and the people who write here always think they are right all the time. You will find ego’s aplenty in the blogoshpere.
More correctly, we think people who write as poorly as you do are likely to be wrong most of the time.
I think rehashing the “you guys should stop picking fights with Geoff Baker” fight for the ten millionth time is a fabulous idea.
What evidence is there for this… at all?
Oh wait, are you referring to that story about teammates disliking Ichiro and wanting to hurt him? Either you’re indulging in baseless speculation, or you just contradicted yourself. Sounds to me like that story IS kind of a big deal, which justifies Derek’s question.
Hmmph. This website has claimed that clubhouse chemistry is of little importance, because amongst other reasons it does not affect “what players are willing to sign with that team“.
Although we don’t know what’s really going on in the Mariner clubhouse, the players certainly do, and it’s no great leap to deduce that Japanese players thinking about jumping to the Mariners will ask Ichiro or Johjima what it’s really like. Maybe it’s actually fine. But if not, then we’ve got a chemical effect par excellence, from reagents to reactions.
There’s a huge difference between “this is a happy clubhouse versus this is a unhappy clubhouse” and “this is a clubhouse where one nationality of player is so resented it’s been reported the team feared for their safety.”
As long as we’re being pedantic, my argument here is not about chemistry — it’s about whether or not, when advancing the case that the M’s have a reputation problem recruiting Japanese players, it’s odd to not consider the Ichiro-is-being-threatened-and-there-was-a-team-meeting controversy.
And as I stated before, laughable.
Given what BAKER has written before, you’re not making a whole lot of sense with your hypotheticals. See for example, Ichiro’s leadership of his team during the World Baseball.
May help to do some research before writing?
Um, define chemistry? I think chemistry is so ill-defined that trying to lump this into “chemistry” isn’t helpful.
To me the issue isn’t why a specific Japanese player declined to play for us. The issue is that the local newspaper published (if only on the web) an account of racism and imminent violence in a major league baseball clubhouse based only upon anonymous sources.
I think too many journalists, including sports journalists, imagine they are Woodward and Bernstein and will win the Pulitzer for their latest expose. They end up using anonymous sources thinking that will add gravity to their reporting, implying that the information is so important that the source could be seriously harmed if he or she was identified.
The reality is, I suspect, that most anonymous sources are nothing more than disgruntled individuals seeking to gain advantage or settle scores by slandering their opponents. In addition, I think some anonymous sources are inventions on the part of the journalist – a way for the journalist to insert his own observations or opinions into the piece.
In a sports setting, a writer may run into problems in the clubhouse if they baldly proclaim that player A is a jerk. Similarly, he will run into problems with his editor if he submits copy that says “I think player A is a jerk.â€
If, however, he cites an “anonymous source†for the proposition that “other†people (maybe even “many†people) think player A is a jerk, then he can probably get away with it. It is even possible he may be lauded for having such important sources.
So, if I were a Japanese player, I might wonder if: 1) the Mariners players are racists; or 2) if the local press will publish anonymous slander about me. Neither is something I would want.
Baker is a fine writer. He made a mistake, however, and needs to learn to avoid basing stories only on anonymous sources. Derek and Dave were, and are, correct to call him on it.
Who’s Jeff Baker? Is he the one that wanted to beat up Ichiro?
Great post and point, Derek.
I think the Seattle Mariner’s reputation has taken a big hit thanks to Baker’s garbage which was featured prominently on the national sites.
Indeed what Japanese player would want to come here?
As someone summed up above:
So, if I were a Japanese player, I might wonder if: 1) the Mariners players are racists; or 2) if the local press will publish anonymous slander about me. Neither is something I would want.
All Baker’s longwinded torturous explanations/lame excuses and all the ridiculous attacks from anonymous internet Baker apologists (some popping up here, sadly) won’t bring back a smidgeon of the credibility Baker lost as a reporter, or prevent people from calling him out on his trashy article.
But even so, I suspect from his track record that it was “mission accomplished” and some satisfaction for Baker in getting Ichiro’s name dragged through the mud on a national scale.
Of the handful of teams he was looking at, and all of the factors involved ($, ballclub, ballpark, weather, city, coaching staff), I find it very hard to believe that Tazawa was scared off by Baker’s report. I really do.
Maybe, just maybe, Japanese players don’t want to come here, like most players, because the organization has been a mess for a while.
And besides, who gives a flying you-know-what about Tazawa? I’d take Affeldt over him 8 days a week.
I don’t know if anyone would recall this, but the entire “Tazawa to the majors” was originally started as headlines of “The Red Sox want to sign Tazawa! OMGWTF?!”, right at the start of the Intercity Baseball Tournament in the first week of September, which was probably long before any of you guys had ever heard of him.
The Mariners (and other teams) pretty much jumped in way after the Red Sox scouts had their hooks on him, it seems. I’m surprised he even bothered to listen to any other offers, since he was pretty gung-ho Red Sox from the beginning from all the reports in Japan.
I think the big fuss was that there had been a gentleman’s agreement in place about MLB scouts not talking to top amateurs before they were subject to the NPB draft, which was violated here, thus everyone went all up in arms. I have a feeling if he didn’t know there was MLB interest in him, or if there hadn’t been, he would have entered the NPB draft, being as he was listed in all the draft magazines as a top pick in the draft this year. (Oddly his player page on ENEOS’s team site said, to answer “where do you see yourself in 20 years?”, simply “I want to be filming commercials for ENEOS”.)
I don’t think the Mariners’ team image had anything to do with this, though to be fair, they aren’t anywhere as popular in Japan as the Red Sox right now, pure and simple. Ichiro’s kind of old news now, I think 🙂
Deanna!!!!!
I’m going to chime in with what some of the early posters said – something that might be discounted since it’s less glamorous than the race issue: Players want to join a winner. Or, maybe more accurately: when the money is relatively equal among suitors, players want to join the suitor that’s a winner.
And isn’t that precisely an example of an “unhappy clubhouse”? What are the classic examples of “bad chemistry”: jerkwad individuals who call out their teammates, or who threaten to (or actually do) get into fistfights with them.
For examples of bad chemistry, see above. There’ve been plenty of examples throughout major league history, including not just personality conflicts, but tension over race. (This bad chemistry of course may not have hurt them in terms of wins-and-losses, e.g. Yankees/Billy Martin/Reggie, but in some cases, such as possibly the Mariners, there may be an effect.)
For a definition: “actions, words, or attitudes — off the field, so not including hitting, pitching, defense, or baserunning — which affect a team’s ability to win”. (Yes there are still loopholes in that definition, we have to add this does not mean stuff like stealing signs or better scouting, but rather stuff not directly related to on-the-field action.)
I agree with most others on this site that most of the so-called chemistry examples are probably bogus. The notion of some clubhouse chemistry that causes players to play better or worse is probably bogus in almost all cases.
But the notion that a hostile or negative workplace environment is not the kind of place that people will want to work at, and that it thus becomes harder to recruit good employees — that’s just an elementary human resource principle. And that will affect a team’s ability to win just as surely as brilliant or lousy drafting and trading will.
If you refuse to call this an example of “clubhouse chemistry”, then what do you call it? “Clubhouse climate”? “Hostility directed at certain players”? “Workplace negativity”? If that’s not bad chemistry, then what is?