Alex Alex Alex
DMZ · February 9, 2009 at 2:15 pm · Filed Under Mariners
I updated the previous post, but… so now he’s everywhere in the news, again, having admitted that he used banned substances after going over to the Rangers from 01-03. He previously has denied ever using anything. I don’t know why we’d particularly believe this limited admission any more than we should have believed previous denials. I’m sure in a couple days someone’s going to ask “hey, wait, then what happened when he moved to third and put on all that…” and we’ll be in for yet another round of attack-denial. But whatever.
M’s fans can take some small consolation that his time with the team is not currently tainted.
Hmmm…guess what he really wanted all along was to go to a flying organization.
It is, to me, completely implausible that he took PEDs for three years, saw huge statistical gains, won an MVP, and got to move to the Yankees, and then magically stopped on his own. And coincidentally, right before he would’ve been punished for being caught.
I have no doubt he’s sincere when you see how emotional he is in the interview, but I feel it’s mostly due to the shame of being caught than anything else.
We may never know, and we’ll no doubt be arguing it for all eternity, but as in most circumstances the logical conclusion is usually the right one.
I’m just glad he wasn’t on anything as a Mariner.
His mea culpa was, frankly, a little lame. He was “naive”? Come on, I wish just one player — I don’t care who, McGwire, A-Rod, Clemens — would man up and be frank and direct about the issue.
I really believe that had A-Rod done that, he (and the game) would be much better off. Just say you did it, unequivocally, it was your fault, you used during this period, and I am now moving on without steroids. That would, I think, go a long way to putting the tiresome issue to bed. But we have yet to hear that. (And I don’t think that fear of prosecution is a big concern stopping anyone from doing this.)
I felt strangely empty when I read that story. He said a lot of the right things about making a mistake and all that plus a couple of strange things (“I’m a high level professional athlete but I didn’t know what I was putting into my body.”) I’m glad he probably parsed the story by confessing instead of going into denial mode and stringing it out. I didn’t like that he tried to blame “the culture” but totally understand the pressure from the 1/4 billion dollar contract. (Of course, he could have signed here for less but I won’t boot that deceased ungulate.)
Now that he admits it – does he pay a penalty?
Why would he pay a penalty for something that wasn’t against the rules?
I think he is at least above the mean on the “man up to it” scale. Below Pettite. Above most others.
I could see him kicking the habit when the steroid fire got too hot in ’04.
So anyone admitting steroid use in the past is off the hook? Unless it’s HOF?
Mmmm…he did have that one year (1996) that seems to just jump out there ya know.
No, he can’t be punished for something that wasn’t illegal at the time. That’s called a de post facto law. We fought a revolution to stop that kind of thing.
Below Pettite.
If you believe Pettitte has owned up to the full extent of his usage. Not saying he has or hasn’t, or that Alex has or hasn’t. Just saying it’s all about what you choose to believe.
Emphasis on “currently”. I’m finding it really hard not to take all the roids talk without assuming the worst.
I think MLB needs to issue a rulling similar to the Black soxs that puts this issue to rest. A-Rod put HOF numbers up when he was on roids and off roids. He was on for 3 years, so should the hall take off those 3 years?
Actually…Baseball has, for a very long time, had the “no illegal drugs” clause in your contract. All though steroids may not have been on the specific banned sustances list called out by baseball, they are/were still against the law without a valid prescription thus making them an “illegal drug.”
But, we don’t know that it was only 3 years. That is what he says, but he lied before (and has now admitted lying).
Now here’s an interesting question – what’s the statue of limitations on illegal possession of steroids? It’s a felony after all. I wonder if any prosecutors in Boston are looking that up.
Uh, it’s called position of a controlled substance.
What, and give NY prosecutors ideas if/when Ortiz gets named in a year?
And that will be the entirety of my posting on the subject of steroids. Good night and good luck.
Like Jose Canseco, you mean?
I’m sick of it. Sooooo sick of it. My entire childhood has more or less been tainted because some of the guys that I really, really looked up to and loved, took steroids. A-rod was, despite all of the hate from M’s fans and abroad, he savior that was going to break Bond’s all time record and do it without steroids so we could compare Aaron to A-rod and leave Bonds out of the discussion. Now it’s all fucked up. This story made me sour a lot faster and with a lot more intensity than I thought, but come on.
Next it’s gonna be the Edgar was on anabolics in ’95. It’s becoming impossible to parse the record books for years people took steroids, so how long is it going to be before no one gives a rat’s ass about who had the most HR because it’s assumed everyone was guilty? Hank Aaron is the only guy you can trust really…and that’s sad because I never saw him play, so his reputation is merely as a legend to me. It sucks that all the greats that I saw play when I was growing up were on steroids.
No more anonymity for tests. Everyone needs to be tested, regularly, and there needs to be HARSH pentalties. I don’t see what is wrong with a 1 strike you’re out rule, honestly Everywhere else there was probably some hyperbole, but seriously, guys should not get second chances when they cheat. If I cheat on an exam or a term paper, I get a 0, because I know it’s against the rules. I know you can’t ban a guy because there is much more to the issue than what is and what isn’t fair, but this really kinda was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I’m starting to not care any more. For all the hysterics about PEDs in sports, every commercial they run during the actual events are either for prescriptions meds or booze.
Hypocrites, all of them.
And just as a side note, when you look at the numbers it’s a Bonds like explosion and downfall, until he moved to 3B with the Yanks, where he had a couple of 03 type seasons. The thing is, if he said that he was under all this pressure to perform from a big contract, and apparently that is his excuse, then what would have stopped him from using again when he was moving into a much, much more stressful city, and resigned a contract as pressure-ridden as the first one? It’s such a slippery slope it’s not even funny. A couple of days ago I’m giving him a break for his years as a Mariner, and not being able to turn down 10/252, and he has pretty much moved up to my number 1 hated person. He was the guy I was gonna tell my grandkids about watching develop. Now he goes in the McGuire/Sosa/Bonds/Clemens box of steroid using cheaters.
statue of limitations
position of a controlled substance
Please make it stop…
Haha, position. Sorry. Possession.
Well, at least Alex has succeeded in knocking Michael Phelps’ lil’ bout of herbal imbibage off the front page for a while.
Meh – I can’t judge him too harshly. I’d have taken them too for millions of dollars. And granted, that wasn’t really the case for him, but for someone like Ryan Franklin and other marginal major leaguers it was.
Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn……….
OMG, even Ron Reagan is playing A-Rod soundbites on his show at the moment — and he’s not even a sports guy!
Since this is one of the first “great” players to actually get caught doing steroids during the prime of their career would it be possible to do some analysis on the effects of steroids on a player’s performance?
I will admit that I don’t know every single advance statistic. But, it seems that his numbers were down across the board in 2004. I’m sure most people assumed it was him adjusting to a new park/position. However, can it be quantified how much of this could’ve been due to his lack of steriods?
Also, in 2005 his stats shoot back up to amazing levels. It seems like a reasonably logical argument can be made that he got scared in 2004 and stopped using. Did not play very well…and decided to use harder to detect steroids to return to form. Just in time of course to get that contract of his extended.
What a time to be a fan of baseball.
Well, he was kind of an outlier. I mean someone who has some credibility and who could end this whole issue with a full mea culpa.
Guess this makes one more thing A-Rod and Canseco had in common…
The thing that bothers me most about ALL of this, but perhaps Arod in particular, is that their actions make me have doubt.
Looking at the 2001 Mariners, a magical yet ultimately dissapointing season, I have doubt about whether or not it was legitimate. Edgar had a career year, his RBI were insane that year. Was he juicing? Boonie, people assume was, but he hasn’t popped up on any list I’ve seen. How about Ichiro, or Olerud? Who’s to say, really.
What about Griffey? He’s suffered some odd injuries over the years… ones that would be typical of a person on steroids.
How can we not at least question Arod’s Mariner years? What, he wasn’t “under pressure to perform” in ’96? Come on.
I’m not pointing fingers at any player specifically. Perhaps its not fair to even suggest one juiced over another.
The point I’ve been trying to make, albeit in a meandering fashion is this… these good memories I have about a team and my favorite players are now tainted in a way that can’t be undone. I have doubt. That’s what sucks the most about all of this.
Please use caution in being selectively skeptical of A-Rod’s admission, i.e., we shouldn’t be so willing to accept his denial about usage during his Mariner tenure, but question his denial during his Yankee stint. If you think about it, A-Rod may-MAY-have reason to not admit to prior usage for fear the Rangers could claim he misled them or misrepresented himself when Texas signed him to the big contract.
That’s called a de post facto law.
No, it’s called an ex post facto law.
And his punishment will be a hearty debate about whether he should get into the hall one day (actually from now until he either does or does not make it finally). We’ve never had a player of this ability, with so many productive years before him, admit using. He may be able to claim a hall of fame career without the years he used (even if he started when he said he did and only stopped within the last couple of years). Time will tell there, but his position as baseball’s savior just went down the tubes. His ability and where he is in his career makes the sportswriters feel more betrayed than they ever have. He came out and said he did it after 2 days of SI’s report, so time may well work in his favor as new blood enters the voting ranks. We shall see.
Make no mistake, here, though, this isn’t about fines, or penalties or suspensions. This is about taking one of the great careers of all time (still in progress) and putting a cloud of doubt over all of it. There is no need to mete out additional punishment. What this guy faces in the mirror should be enough for those who want him to feel like a tortured soul. If he’s smart he becomes the leading advocate to keep kids off PED’s. Starting that crusade and meaning it might give him a chance as a person and a HOF’er. Though the former should matter a whole lot more than the latter.
The story is 10 out of 10 for convenience and 0 out of 10 for consistency.
Alex says he started roiding when he got to Texas because of the pressure of the new contract and then stopped when he got to New York. And we’re supposed to believe that moving from Texas to New York somehow took the pressure off him?
What I see is someone who doesn’t want the Steinbrenners’ lawyers to start looking into voiding his contract, not someone who is coming clean.
[no]
Like crashing into the outfield wall and breaking his wrist?
In reality, Junior started injuring his legs regularly in 2001 – the year he turned 32. That’s called the normal aging process. Remember, he had been playing on the Kingdome rug/cement for over ten years.
It’s normal for a guy in his early thirties to start getting injured. It’s abnormal for roid freaks like Bonds to stay healthy and keep improving into his late 30s.
According to the SI book about Bonds’s decision to take steriods, Junior specifically was apolled and declined to go down the same path…
There has been ZERO connecting Junior to roids. The evidence points to him aging normally in an era of abnormal aging…
Joe Jackson was acquitted, true.
But his involvement with the other 7 was confused enough to keep us from “almost certainly” innocent.
Oh for god’s sake people….
Why do people care sooooo much about all this steroid crap?
Yes, it should be outlawed for minors, just like alcohol is.
But as for adult athletes? Test them. Regularly. If they test positive, punish them. I think the rules baseball FINALLY put into place (the 50,100 games, then lifetime ban thing) are more than adequate.
Think about it. Suspending them cuts their pay, reduces their stats and is a pretty big social slap in the face. What more do you want?
It’s not like these guys were killing dogs or beating up their wives. They took a drug that was widely known about and not banned within baseball at the time.
I like wabbles’ comment:
He admitted it. It wasn’t legal at the time. Now let the damn thing go. If he tests positive for it tomorrow, then that’s a completely different story.
As for the records, if they test positive AFTER the ban on PED’s was officially put into effect, then yeah, put an asterisk next to their name in the record books. Dole out their punishment and let them move on.
And as an end-note:
Why is the media hellbent on making baseball the posterchild for steroids when the use of PED’s, I assume, would be much higher in many other sports?
Really, it’s like baseball is too boring to them if they don’t have something to sensationalize.
It’s not the player’s fault this thing is being made so huge. If ‘roids had been as prevalent in the 50′s as it is today, is anyone really naive enough to think that all of this wouldn’t have happened then too?
And we’re supposed to believe that moving from Texas to New York somehow took the pressure off him?
Well, sure, Jeter was already there to be the face of the franchise and the focus of everyone’s attention.
Suppose that it was against the rules to throw a spitball, but that there was no penalty for doing so. You, as a pitcher, want to win as many games as possible–that’s what you are paid to do. You also know that you can win more games if you throw the spitball.
Would you then be an idiot for using the spitball even though there is no penalty for using it and it increases your chances of success?
If anything, there’s a brutal logic to using steroids in the 2003 season. The tests were supposed to be anonymous and juicing helps you earn more money and win more games. It would still be unethical to use PEDs and probably naive to believe that the results would remain sealed, but I wouldn’t say that it was idiotic.
“Suppose that it was against the rules to throw a spitball, but that there was no penalty for doing so. You, as a pitcher, want to win as many games as possible–that’s what you are paid to do. You also know that you can win more games if you throw the spitball.
Would you then be an idiot for using the spitball even though there is no penalty for using it and it increases your chances of success?
If anything, there’s a brutal logic to using steroids in the 2003 season. The tests were supposed to be anonymous and juicing helps you earn more money and win more games.”
You’re missing the big picture. The 104 players who tested positive in 2004 were idiots because that testing, although carrying no industry or legal penalties with it, was a pretext/precursor for making PEDs illegal. If those players didn’t know that, they should have. I don’t know how long those things stay in your system but if they had stopped in time and no one has tested positive, there would have been no problem to fix/solve. There would have been no Mitchell Report and no current 50-game/full-season ban. But 104 players got caught despite advanced warning and now fans are looking over their shoulders at ALL 1,200 players (30 teams times 40 man roster).
Bud Selig needs to step down immediately. He should know what is going on in his league. He makes more money than 99% of the players and falls asleep on the job. MLB would have been better off with the man who originally wanted the job, but because Selig took over after his interim, George W. Bush went on to run for governor of Texas, and the rest, how we say, is history.
[long link]
Yeah, seriously, people need to get over it. I’m hugely disappointed, for sure, but I feel sympathy for the poor guy too. And (logically or not) I’ve been in the “Screw A-rod” camp for a while.
He absolutely is responsible for his actions, but I don’t believe the whole “that was the culture then” thing is a cop-out. The only way steroids in baseball has turned into such a black-cloud issue is because EVERYONE f***ed up. Everyone. They need to impose clear-cut rules, testing procedures, and punishments, and then let the past go.
With guys like Alex, or even Bonds, it’s not fair to go back and question every great season they had. Alex was recognized as an elite talent from early on. Steroids or not, he’s one of the most gifted baseball players we’ve ever seen. Yeah, his rep is somewhat tainted – all of baseball is somewhat tainted. Sucks but it’s the truth.
As the wise sage Ichiro once said:
Bud Selig’s job is to make more money for the owners, and he does that astoundingly well.
He didn’t fall asleep on the job. Ignoring steroids for as long as possible helped maximise profits.
Bud Selig has, I think, been bad for baseball, but he’s been good for baseball’s owners, and that’s what his job is.
Though if they did, I would want my entire team on steroids all of the time.
Because that would be super cool.
Performance Enhancing Drugs in baseball (and American society in general) are nothing new; it’s just that today’s versions work better. Amphetimines, both legal and illegal, have been a rumored part of baseball culture for years (see McLaren’s recent comments on A-Rod in the Times) and they are, without question, performance enhancers. Consequenlty, the assertion that records from an earlier era are “clean” while more recent records are “tainted” may be more of a matter of degree than of black and white.
The comparison of records from era to era is always an arbitrary exercise. A large number of factors influence success in any given era and you can find some argument–season length, exclusion of players based on race, free agency, expansion teams, drugs, war, etc.–to argue that a given record should be discounted. Steroids and their ilk are no different, and our desire to treat them as such reflects more on our human tendancy to over-value recent events than on anything else.
Egreenlaw….why do we care so much?
It’s about the integrity of the game and he is the FIRST high profile player to actually admit it was happening. Yet, I still think he is lying.
I understand that the union and owners could have stopped this long ago, but it was more about the cash cow that was HR totals. Now when I make my yearly visit to Cooperstown…what can I believe? When my son is old enough to understand the game and I take him there, I can only hope I am not as frustrated, angry and yet disapponted as I am right now.
One more thought . . . If we are going to discuss steroids use, lets gets some terms straight. Steroids are a controlled substance under federal law and their use without a valid prescription has been illegal for years.
MLB has no power to make something “illegal.” Thankfully, that power is reserved for government. MLB can, with Union agreement, ban the use of substances and impose penalties on players who are caught, which they had not done in 2003. A-Rod’s use of steroids may have been illegal if he didn’t have a valid prescription (which is a whole different discussion), but it was not a violation of then-current baseball rules.
“Next it’s gonna be the Edgar was on anabolics in ‘95. It’s becoming impossible to parse the record books for years people took steroids, so how long is it going to be before no one gives a rat’s ass about who had the most HR because it’s assumed everyone was guilty?”
Careful, now. I know you’re spouting some hyperbole to demonstrate your disgust for fallen heroes, but just in case…I’ve never seen Edgar linked to PEDs – ever. But your other point is well taken, in this sense. The guys ultimately most unfairly hurt by this are guys like Edgar, whose legitimate accomplishments do not look as impressive as they are because so many of their competitors were cheating. Maybe Edgar isn’t a great example, because even though I believe he achieve what he did clean, his numbers can hang with the best players of the 1990s, without doubt. But how much of how “borderline” a HoF case he is is simply due to the fact that he was “surpassed” by cheaters? And make no mistake, there is simply no way to make sense of the “steroid era” but to make player-to-player comparisons within the era either without regard to PEDs or assuming that ALL were on ‘em. Which, ultimately, really penalizes those who were clean (like, IMO, Edgar).
I guess what I keep coming back to is the legend/myth of the 8-year-old running up to Shoeless Joe Jackson and saying “Say It Ain’t So, Joe. Say Ain’t So.” and Jackson supposedly walking away.
Whether it actually happened (I doubt it) is irrelevant. What IS important that it was developed as a legend to convey the feelings of betrayal experienced by baseball fans from 8 to 80.
These days we want DNA tests and sworn affadavits and all that. Proof positive. That’s not the point.
We all thought these players had discovered weight training and nutrition and not using spring training to get in shape and all that. Now….maybe some did, maybe others didn’t.
I’m sure we all had the same “Say It Ain’t So A-Rod” reaction to this story. That’s the alpha and the omega for me. I feel genuinely betrayed. ‘sigh’
To your point, Pete Livengood, I support disclosing all 104 names of those who tested positive.
I know it’s supposed to be confidential, but the kitty is already leaving the bag. In fairness to the 600 or so players who were clean, and in the best interests of the game, the list should be published.
Every player of this era is tainted and the majority do not deserve it. See the Edgar speculation above.
Personally, I wish I could never hear the word “steroids” again.
Burkeforpres says:
“how long is it going to be before no one gives a rat’s ass about who had the most HR because it’s assumed everyone was guilty?”
For me it’s right now.
Then he says:
“No more anonymity for tests. Everyone needs to be tested, regularly, and there needs to be HARSH pentalties. I don’t see what is wrong with a 1 strike you’re out rule, honestly Everywhere else there was probably some hyperbole, but seriously, guys should not get second chances when they cheat.”
IMO nobody needs to be tested and there doesn’t need to be ANY “pentalties.” I have been following major league baseball, man and boy, for damn near 55 years now, and I don’t give a shit what drugs these guys do.
Mariner Fan in CO Exile says:
“We’ve never had a player of this ability, with so many productive years before him, admit using.”
We’ve never had a player of this ability, period. Leave him the hell alone. This whole steroid thing is just plain silly. Maybe we should take down Babe Ruth’s plaque from the Hall of Fame because he did an illegal drug — alcohol — all during Prohibition.
Tainted, my ass. He’s the best baseball player I have ever seen, period. He’s the best SS since Honus Wagner, and the only SS you could even mention in the same sentence as Wagner, and what he puts in his body is his own business, as long as he goes all out on the field. I have never seen him do anythhing but that.
skipj, the only person that would be “fair” to is Alex Rodriguez, because maybe then he wouldn’t be so singled out (because we know he wasn’t alone). The problem is, though, just because only 104 tested positive in 2004 doesn’t mean everyone else was clean. The players essentially knew the tests were coming, and when – not to mention those who had already moved on to “untestable” drugs like HGH or undetectable or exceedinly well-masked PEDs. Disclosing the others is unfair to them (as it is to A-Rod – but that ship has sailed) because the test was meant to be anonymous and not subject to discipline, and ultimately doesn’t prove anything. It just appeals to our salacious, slow-down-while-driving-by-the-accident need for “information.”
At least that’s the way I feel about it today. Ask me again tomorrow.
Steroids. Baseball. Which carries ads for Cialis.
Heh heh hehe heh……
Here’s the part I don’t get.
He says, I signed this big contract and moved to Texas, and there was all this pressure on me, so I took the PEDs. Um, okay. So then that move to New York, for the same money, took all that pressure off. And you magically become a beast around 2005?
This ain’t over. It’s probably going to eat up a lot of this season, at least. Whether it’s just another Bonds or a cycling-style meltdown is the big question, to me.
Pete, I follow your reasoning, and have considered your points; here is my main issue:
Is it more ethical to protect the anonymity of those who tested positive, or is it more ethical to protect the reputations of those who did not?
Surely, some who tested clean beat the game, so they would be unfairly in the clean group. Is that reason for all players to have the taint of suspicion? I think not.
Alex’s ship has sailed, but I’ll bet you an Ichiro russian doll that the four sources who got his name and leaked it, have the full official report, with all of the other names.
I go round and round on this. What is the right thing to do? I say full disclosure. This ain’t an easy one though.
When it boils down to it, this is the main sentiment by those who keep freaking out about the steroid thing (as said by Mustard above):
Here is what you believe.
All those players DID what they did, as recorded by official MLB scorekeepers.
Yeah, you’ll know some of them used steroids, and some of them might not have (there is no definitive way to call anyone completely ‘clean,’ even dead/retired players).
You accept that things change, people make choices, and everything is not always exactly as it appears.
Then you move on.
Or you go hide in a geometrically perfect world where anomalies don’t exist.
interesting to read Heyman’s take on Orza and the Union’s culpability
I am neither surprised nor disappointed at the revelations about Alex.
What does surprise and disappoint me is the general consensus that a “ban” was not clearly made by baseball until the Bud Selig years.
I have had my suspicions since watching the inhuman 1989-1990 Oakland A’s beat the hell out of my beloved M’s, but there was never proof, so it was just speculative grumbling on my part.
As far as I am concerned, the Fay Vincent memo in 1991 was late in coming, but ought to at least be recognized as the date when it was officially banned.
More than anything else, one thing sticks with me from my teenage 80s: Lyle Alzado. Late in his short life, he told the Rocky Mountain News –
His body is buried in Portland, but his message resonates to this day. The HOF is not nearly as much fun when your induction is posthumous. No athlete can know of the slow, painful, and senseless death of Alzado and still plead ignorance.
A direct casual link between steroid use and RBIs. Oh, the humanity.
I just came up with a great way for the players that tested negative to clear their names without impinging on the anonymity of those who tested positive.
Players union: “Any player who wishes their results made public may do so, and we will verify the results.”
Um, you see the flaw in that, right?
I can’t conjure up the smallest iota of curiosity about who was and was not using steroids, no matter how hard I try. Is there something wrong with me?
No Derek, it seems fair?
What am I missing?
msb, thank you for this:
For all the knee jerk idiots wanting to lay all this on Bud Selig’s feet (and believe me, that guy is both creepy and successful in unpredictable ways) read that link before opening your mouths. Learn something.
For those who say it doesn’t matter…I say, what a shame–when exactly did you stop being a baseball fan?
To those who feel any sympathy at all for Rodriguez–my condolences–you have clearly left the land of rationality.
Only one?
I think it’s amazing the variety of topics to which this ridiculous line of argument can be applied.
I’m a fan of the sport of baseball, not the cultivated images of the people who play it. Is that weird?
Because if all the players who had negative tests share, who’s left??
I don’t blame Alex too much, nor Bonds.
I think back to the Summer of Love in ’98 when both McGuire and Sosa were chasing Ruth. Both of them were juiced to the gills, maybe Sammy’s bat was corked too. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t widely known in Baseball that both were on ‘roids, and yet you had the Commissioner flying in for all the key benchmarks for both players, you had the networks cutting away in prime time for coverage. And you had attendance going through the roof.
Q. What the hell are Alex, Bonds, and yes Bret Boone supposed to think?
A. The fans love it, the Commissioner loves it, and the Networks love it. And its not even against the rules.
Yeah. I’m gonna go ahead and ask that you dial back on the acrimony just a touch.
I met one of Jack Cust’s best friends recently, and the rumor passed down to me was that, per Cust, 80% of MLB/organized baseball is juicing. There are probably very, very few clean players (Griffey may be among them) out there of any account.
Breadbaker,
Can you break it down for me?
What am I missing?
+It is, to me, completely implausible that he took PEDs for three years, saw huge statistical gains, won an MVP, and got to move to the Yankees, and then magically stopped on his own.+
Those “huge statistical gains” are mostly the difference between safeco and the baseball park at arlington
skipj,
If MLB does what you propose, then all the players who tested negative and KNOW they did come out and say so that only leaves the players who tested postive (well, positive for whatever is being tested, not positive from a PR standpoint). See where that gets you? The players who say nothing are guilty in the court of public opinion.
galaxieboi,
Those who choose not to announce their results, and make excuses.
‘It wasn’t banned…
‘I didn’t know…
‘Vitamins…
Entertain the possibility that some guys just said no.
Okay, so that’s a flaw in the plan that starts with the assumptions that the Player’s Union and the players are aware of everyone who failed and passed, that they can verify the results, that they would verify the results, and that players would selectively self-identify as clear or not.
That’s not the one I was thinking of, and I don’t think one of the ones Breadbaker was thinking of.
Seriously, skip, on your own now: what’s one huge flaw in your plan besides the one we just covered?
That is precisely what I want, galexieboi.
That clears the innocent without violating the confidentiality of the testing agreement. Ethically, it’s the best solution that I have come up with.
Derek, any time I get into ethics I find I am shot down for all kinds of good and practical reasons. By people smarter than I am.
So help me out here.
Isn’t that kind of like saying I won’t tell you what I promised someone I wouldn’t tell you, but if you can GUESS it — then I never told you?
I remember doing that when I was five…
And I’m pretty sure that logic wouldn’t hold up in any court of law.
The first flaw is that the union doesn’t make decisions for players; they are its boss, not the other way around. That’s elementary labor law. Don Fehr and Gene Orza have to represent the best interests of the entire membership of they get into legal trouble. So unless they are instructed to do what is proposed, they can’t do it. And that’s frankly not going to happen.
The second flaw is that it doesn’t prove a damn thing. It’s one test at one moment in time (and they all had notice it was coming). There are false positives (which are pretty darn hard to argue about unless you have a control sample somewhere that was preserved six years ago). There are false negatives (some of the steroids we can test for today we couldn’t test for then, and that makes it pretty certain that there are still some that can’t be tested for today). So the only thing you’d conclusively know by being on the “good list” is that someone’s test, taken on one day in 2003, was negative. That doesn’t make him clean, it just means he beat that test. Ask Lance Armstrong how conclusive a negative test is in the court of public opinion.
Which leads to the third flaw: is anyone going to believe the union’s certification? I don’t mean they’ll flat out lie but would it put to rest rumors about anyone who bulked up? Take Bret Boone, who was listed in Canseco’s first book (and the anecdote he gave was, as I recall, conclusively proven to be untrue). Would having him on the clean list stop all the rumors? He’s a guy whose OPS+ from year to year had wild swings, up or down 30 to 60 points all over the place. Are people going to stop looking at the record and just look at the union’s certification?
Finally, there’s the public policy of the privacy of medical records. I seem to recall someone got in big trouble peeking at medical records of a presidential candidate last year; I think I care about the medical history of the President more than I do about any baseball player. If I’m Ichiro Suzuki, an intensely private man in many ways, why would I want my medical records, even in this one instance, to be public? It could be the leading edge of the wedge. If there were rumors that some player had AIDS, would that be next?
Practical and well thought out. Thank you.
But what is the right thing to do? Canseco, forget his BS. (Stopped clock is right twice a day…)
I very much appreciate your input on this, as I wrestle with ethics in the sport that I love.
At what point do we (fans or management) have a right to a players’ medical history? It does rather dehumanize the player. Can we fairly do that to an athlete in exchange for money? As an owner, coach or fan?
Your one test at one moment comment is irrefutably true. Yet it leaves the question why test at all, ever? or, every day? What testing schedule can’t be discarded? Should we test at all?
The court of public opinion is, I guess, the final judge. Yet so frequently wrong.
Thanks for your input, and kind response.
Management? I don’t know. I suppose it depends on the nature of the contract the player signed, and possibly the collective bargaining agreement.
But the very idea that the fans have the right to know medical history, even as a rhetorical question, is ridiculous and frankly creepy. I’ve given up understanding why you care so much. But why do you think there’s some duty to find away around individuals rights to privacy to have your curiousity satisfied?
I very much appreciate your input on this, as I wrestle with ethics in the sport that I love
Unfortunately, unethical play (being it by drug or other means) has been in this game for many, many years. Gaylord was a master of the spitball( against the rules for almost a century) and he’s in cooperstown.
He’s just the most recent. Whitey Ford (notched most of the balls he threw) was an earlier, though different, version of the same thing.
I find it very difficult to see the bad in todays baseball players when their predecessors set such an example.
djw,
Your comment,especially your last sentence, indicates that I don’t express myself well or you don’t read well. If it’s the former, I will try to do better; if it’s the latter perhaps you will.
tranquil,
Hey, I know what you mean, but there is a difference between a catcher ridiculously framing a ptch hoping to fool the plate ump (cheating) and massive drug use Cyborg type(CHEATING!!!).
If only someone would write a book on the spectrum of baseball cheating.
I can lend you a really good one. But I want it back.
Some guy with an unusual last name, seems to know his stuff.
Hey, I know what you mean, but there is a difference between a catcher ridiculously framing a ptch hoping to fool the plate ump (cheating) and massive drug use Cyborg type(CHEATING!!!).
Unfortunately, it’s all still cheating. Can you quantify the difference between a notched/spit pitch and a juiced batsman? I’d really love to see the balance you come up with. (please show your work)
I’d only buy it if I could see a picture of the cover without having to leave this particular page of the internet.
Interesting challenge. I think that the stats for notched/spit pitches will be more difficult to find than the stats for known/admitted juiced batsmen.
I’ll consider your pitch. (Although you, I, and God, know it was notched.)
I’d only buy it if I could see a picture of the cover without having to leave this particular page of the internet.
Judging by your previous posts on many other threads, and the understanding you obviously have, You already know all you need to. (though it might be rather humorous to see the cover on this site)
I just read the NY Times article about Primobolan, the drug A-Rod was allegedly tested postivie for. If it is taken in tablet form, it is only detectable for less than a day and you are juiced for months with few side effects! I am surprised by how effective the drug is. Wouldn’t many athletes be using it then?
Skipj, I think the reason you got the response you did from djw is because you’re essentially begging the question. The real question is, what is needed to restore your sense of trust in baseball as a legitimate sport, which has apparently been shaken by the revelations about PEDs.
Nearly everything we do involves a level of trust. When you cross a street with the light, you trust the drivers not to plow through the light. When you eat food that is grown, processed and prepared by others, you trust that it is not poisoned. When you perform labor for others, you trust they will pay you, trust that the funds they transfer to a bank in your name will show up, that the bank will be there in the morning or if it is not that the FDIC will make good on its promise, and trust that U.S. currency will have meaningful value. As I’m sure some who are reading have all been thinking, all of this trust is, at various times, mistaken. People get run over. Peanuts are killing people. Banks are failing and who knows where the dollar will be in a week let alone a year.
And thus to baseball. In 2008, baseball had record revenue and record attendance. It did not have record ratings, and one wonders if the revenue will continue as it is if fewer people are watching baseball on television. But if I’m a ballplayer, or an owner, or Bud Selig (please, no!), the record revenue and attendance does not tell me I need to bend over backwards to prove the integrity of the sport. I may want to argue that someone else does (if I’m Bud, I’m arguing the players do), but I do that as an attempt to shield myself. It’s only when everyone sees the whole house of cards collapsing (as the union and the owners did after the Congressional hearings, when they agreed to the increased penalties for drug use) that they will work cooperatively.
As to what would create that semblance of integrity, I don’t know. I am not a huge fan of drug testing. The methods of sample collection are not exactly dignified. We’ve already seen that the security of the process is subject to huge holes. And, as I said above, I don’t think a negative test proves much.
If I had to venture a guess, I’d think the best thing would be a true commissioner of baseball, not someone who was as clearly the owners’ commissioner as Bud Selig. Someone who could talk to players, owners and fans from a position of strength (thus, someone with a public presence and some public clout), but who also understood the game. The role would not necessarily be as CEO of the game from a business standpoint (at which Selig, frankly, excels), but only the game from an integrity standpoint.
I don’t know, is Clint Eastwood a baseball fan?
Am I the only one who is upset about the Hyperventilating coverage on ESPN? Boy has that network fallen.
“A-Rod’s legacy is forever tarnished” – talk about creating the story! They’re actively setting the agenda of the debate over steroids. I guess that’s the path that modern teevee journalism is on… but if definitely stinks.
Only way to clean up the sport is if the fans are outraged enough and stop attending games. That along with a IOC caliber drug testing program and punishments that arent laughable like the MLB has now. Difference between old fashioned cheaters like Perry and Roiders? When on steroids you are cheating 100% of every single second you are in the ball game. You are cheating with every at bat, you are cheating for each second you are in the field.
And the argument about steroids are ok because opposing players are using them is absolute rubbish. If half of all players are roiding, half of their competition is playing clean thus giving the roiders the clear advantage. And it being ok to use steroids because they wernt against the rules at the time? What a total crock of shit. Its not against the rules to pay someone to break the knee of the opposing pitcher. Its illegal (like anabolic steroids) but not in the rulebook.
The tested players were promised anonymity. The league had a reasonable plan in place for protecting that anonymity. My understanding is that the data got linked up when the feds got involved, and now A-Rod’s anonymity has been compromised. The most unethical thing, from a human subjects standpoint, that the league could possibly do now would be to reveal the other 103 names. how could the players union ever deal with the league offices again?
The only thing that could knock me for a loop right now would be if Cal Ripken Jr. tested positive.
And I agree with RoninX, more appalling to me than A-rod testing positive is that test results that were supposed to be anonymous have been leaked. There is no way names should ever have been linked to test samples and I hope the union uses this to smack down the owners.
Frankly, every time I see a player bulk up I just assume he/she is chemically enhanced. It keeps my disappointment level low.
[name-calling]
I’m with Gustafson, all the injuries are the best evidence that Griffey is clean.
I think one of the things ‘roids have done is skewed the age decline, Griffey is a reminder of what it normally looks like.
Clint Eastwood isn’t exactly the poster boy for integrity. He’s been a serial womanizer since he left “Rawhide”.
And he’d appoint Gene Hackman and Morgan Freeman as deputy commissioners.
/tongue-in-cheek
——————–
IMO it’s foolish to believe Alex Rodriguez’ claim that he used steroids only while he was a Texas Ranger player. Why?
Scott Boras is still his agent.
Rodriguez can afford every masking agent and new-age designer steroid available.
Both Rodriguez and Boras have made it clear that accumulating record-breaking production numbers leading to HOF induction is the be-all and end-all of his career; and being a player on the most well-funded, well-publicized team in baseball is gravy for his HOF credentials.
He’d be stupid to STOP using PEDs once a member of that coveted team, and all it takes for Yankee fanboys to “forgive” him is a weak confession of the kind he just admitted, one that doesn’t impugn THEIR team, just the one no one but Rangers fans cares about.
Obviously Rodriguez and Boras took a risk in 2003, and it backfired on them; it’s all about damage control now.
The one thing both of them know is Rodriguez’ fragile psyche — that’s the only fly in the ointment, the only factor that could adversely affect Rodriguez’ future Yankee production numbers. If he trips over his shoelaces again, figuratively speaking, Yankee fans will let him have it, and won’t let up.
It goes without saying what OTHER teams’ fans are going to do to him this season, and hereafter.
I doubt our normally quiet, mild-mannered, polite Mariners fans will change THEIR attitude towards Rodriguez, either.
These steroid scandals are becoming tiresome. Now congress is pursuing Miguel Tejada?!?!? Please!
At least I don’t have to sit through ESPN telling me how horrible a person Barry Bonds is for about a week.
aaaaand I put in the earphones and a caller says this is reason one why they have to bring Griffey back, because he is now the only one who could be the clean HR hitter of all time.
I seem to recall a line in Bouton’s Ball Four to the extent that players would pretty much take anything that might help them.
Back then, it wasn’t steroids, but it was illegal drugs, and players ended up getting suspended. But certainly only some of the players were ever caught.
John Canzano at the Oregonian has an interesting perspective on this issue. I think this would help put the whole sordid era behind us.
Canzono’s plan, or something like it, has already been put forth here. Here is the response (if I can get the blockquote right)
I want to see all 103 names too, and we no doubt will eventually see them all, or at least all the ones that matter, unless the leaked is plugged. I find it difficult to believe that someone has some of the names but not all of them. But, MLB should never release the names. I think Selig should do everything in his power to find those responsible for the leak and shut them up.
I think Selig should do everything in his power to find those responsible for the leak and shut them up
I would be more than surprised if the leak came from the MLB offices. It’s most likely the feds that are leaking information. Do you think Selig has enough clout to seal off a leak coming from a governmental office? Neither do I.
The Numbers Guy from the Wall Street Journal analyzed ARod’s numbers during the Texas years and did not find a significant spike in power, or a “smoking gun.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/
That of course assumes that ARod only used steroids those three years.
I, like him, am a little skeptical.
I still think it’s amazing that Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter while on LSD.
Since they gave the guy who leaked the Bond info almost 3 years in Jail…..
The guy who leaked The Arod news obviously didnt care about spending 3 years in jail…..So I have no problem giving him 30.
Bonds lied (allegedly) …BUT the guy leaking the information….stole from the goverment, disobey a court ruling from a Superior Court Judge, broken over a dozen laws reguarding the information….
So why not the all out man-hunt for the person that leaked the info? He actually broke more laws than Bonds and Arod did together.
egreenlaw9 wrote, in response to the general sentiment expressed by many that the prevalence of PEDs over the last 10-20 years has destroyed their ability to find any meaning in accomplishments by players of this era:
I couldn’t agree with this more. Ultimately, relentlessly chasing down players who bought or tested positive for PEDs does NOTHING to prove that those you can’t catch were clean. The whole era was, and forever will be tainted because of this simple fact.
This DOESN’T mean, however, that none of these players should be elected to the Hall of Fame, or that we should disregard the accomplishments of all (or even many) of the players of this era.
EVERY era has its foibles, and reasons why the players of that era cannot be exactly compared to players from another era. The players of the 60s onward (maybe earlier) early were hopped up on greenies, and before 1969 hitters were pitched to from a mound that was anywhere from 5 to 10 inches higher than it is now. Players of the 50s and 40s played a game populated almost exclusively by Americans, and thanks to segregation, the pre-WWII crowd didn’t even have to face ALL the best of that even that limited group of people. The offensive explosion of the ’20s and 30s was brought about by rule changes that banned previously legal and popular pitches like the spitball and the shineball, and prohibited the use of a dirty and scuffed ball. This was also the era where MLB moved from the “dead ball” to the “live ball” and watched the game recover from its PREVIOUS “worst scandal ever” in much the same way MLB turned a blind eye to steroids because “chicks dig the long ball.” And before “the modern era,” in the 1800s – don’t even get me started. For a good portion of that era a foul ball wasn’t even a strike!
The point is, LOTS of things help to define an era and what a “great” performer in that era was. Performances across eras are not, and never were, directly comparable in the way people routinely claim they are, and the widespread use of PEDs has done nothing to change that for good or bad, except to help define an era.
All you can do is try to identify the great players of the era and give them their due. I’m sure some players will be penalized more than others for the perception that they are relatively more guilty than others, but honestly, it is way better to assume that NOBODY is innocent. Judge them against their peers, within their era, and stop pretending that the playing field across history has been even until we got to this point.
Sure, that is unfair to those who truly were innocent, but at the same time, they were all complicit (through their union) in trying to protect those who were guilty.
Which might very well happen anyway, since there’s lots of folks at the moment who don’t exactly have a ton of disposable cash lying around to spend on games.
Which in a way is too funny — not to mention probably far less dangerous than the cumulative effect of steroids over time.
I couldn’t agree with this more. Ultimately, relentlessly chasing down players who bought or tested positive for PEDs does NOTHING to prove that those you can’t catch were clean. The whole era was, and forever will be tainted because of this simple fact.
This DOESN’T mean, however, that none of these players should be elected to the Hall of Fame, or that we should disregard the accomplishments of all (or even many) of the players of this era.
Exactly what I was getting at earlier in this thread. Though I obviously wasn’t quite as well written as in his post.
I can’t think of any more obvious HoFer (in the REAL sense of the word, which has only slight resemblence to that ridiculous sideshow in Cooperstown) than ARod. And I am not really a fan of his, just an admirer of his level of play.
That said, has there ever been a great player who managed to produce a lamer public image? Such things can’t be helped, but still….
On the subject at hand, I feel no outrage and only some surprise/disappointment (his public persona, if true, would result in exactly the story that is unfolding).
But perhaps I would be more upset if most “professional sportswriters” were not so darn upset. Anything that makes their life hard is good, for baseball and the world, after all. Hopefully we will have videos of Daily News writers foaming at the mouth – literally.
I think the big issue that keeps the steriods scandal rolling is the MLB’s and the Player’s Union’s incessant strategy to try and pull the sheepskin over our eyes. First the attitude is steroids aren’t being used, then it’s just a few rogue players that are using it, then the issue snowballs so they call for a highly resisted and ineffective investigation (Mitchell Report). Clemens gets outed and thrown to the wolves and baseball hopes now that they’ve sacrificed some players they can put it behind them. Of course now with the Feds still smelling blood and leaks beginning to spring, we will continue to have a name lobbed at us every month or so. I went from being comforted in the fact that Arod would wipe alot of the dirty records off the books to hoping my heroes are among the clean (Edgar specifically). We have stories of the union tipping players off to when testing will happen and its no mystery the media wont drop the story. I bet if the union and commissioner would have just honestly addressed the issue we would be past this by now. Instead we get to spend more years wincing as our heroes fall and their HoF careers destroyed. This is getting to the point where my status as a major baseball fan is becoming seriously eroded.