Ichiro Is the Selfish One?
I know you’ve probably all seen Larry Stone’s piece where he talks to J.J. Putz, and Putz makes no bones about the fact that he doesn’t think Ichiro is a team guy. You’ve heard this criticism of Ichiro before – all about himself, all about the numbers, that kind of stuff.
Well, check out these quotes from Miguel Batista when talking to John Hickey yesterday:
“You don’t pay a guy $9 million to pitch middle relief,” he said Sunday, aware that he’s the second highest-paid pitcher on the team. “Well, maybe the Yankees do. My concern is to stay healthy and help the team and we will find some neutral ground.”
“I know we have kids here who have to pitch,” he said. “But if I don’t pitch here next year, I’m going to pitch somewhere. So I need numbers (either wins or saves). So for me, I’ve either got to close or to start.”
There’s a perception that Ichiro is all about gathering personal accomplishments at the expense of the team. Miguel Batista outright says that he’s putting his own statistics ahead of what’s best for the team. Think we’ll see any “Miguel Batista is a clubhouse cancer” stories?
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Quoting Batista:
Sort of reminds me of this.
I guess Miguel didn’t get the memo that most of the under-achieving veterans of the past few years have been let go, and now he’ll have to actually compete for a job. Old habits die hard, I suppose.
I think that Ichiro could do a better job of closing than Batista.
It sounds like Batista is thinking in terms of self preservation, rather than numbers for numbers sake. If he pitches reasonably well, but has no flashy numbers to show for it, then the percentage of GM’s that rely on such numbers will have no interest and his market is cut in half (or worse).
It’s ultimately his own doing (ie. reaping what he’s sown), but a little different from the implied arrogance.
So…Putz implies that Ichiro puts himself/numbers first, yet he was pissed because he didn’t get to close and get $aves. Whatever. Clubhouse chemistry has to be the most overblown thing in baseball.
Stark Raving,
I don’t disagree with you, butI think that the ultimate purpose of Dave’s post is to point out what the reaction would be if Ichiro said anything along those lines. After all, all players are selfish. Ichiro likes to play RF, Raul wants to play LF, Griffey wants to play OF, Putz wants to close, etc. Some, however, are called competitors and others are labelled selfish.
When you have a full roster of players who are way overpaid compared to their abilities, it really makes sense when Putz was talking along the lines saying in Seattle we were expected to win, and in New York we expect to win.
Miguel, Carlos, Jarrod all get paid more than most of the roster, so of course they think they’re better. Its going to take a good reality check to get this roster to play together. These guys need to take their money, shut up, and play their butts off.
Batista gives quotes.
In what crazy, bizarro world could he be considered a clubhouse cancer?
It’s the standoffish ones that are the classic cancers.
Hmm… Miguel Batista is still on this team? Wow.
I would guess that the majority of players know where they stand with the traditional baseball numbers, even if they profess modest surprise when asked.
I would also guess that those of a certain level of achievement have a very good sense of what their career numbers are, and what they have to do to maintain them.
As we’ve all mentioned in the past, there are things that Ichiro does in the clubhouse and on the field that likely rub fellow players the wrong way– doing them on a (consistantly) losing team would just exacerbate the irritation.
Two things, with regard to JJ– I’m guessing that last spring (before he got hurt) he also thought the Mariners clubhouse was an optimistic, ready-to-win kinda place. That is what spring can do to you. I am also surprised that he was surprised that some players on a team get ‘special treatment’.
ah well, you do have to like that he remains consistent in saying what he thinks.
Does anyone else find it a bit hypocritical of Putz to be claiming that some players aren’t “team guys” when at the same time he’s stating that he’s pissed off that he doesn’t get to be closer? That sure makes him sound like a “team guy”…
I think this whole blame game is mostly venting frustration after a tough year in the clubhouse. I don’t think Ichiro is any different than he has been the last eight years, but only now others are complaining.
Bad teams always blame their star players. JJ just proves this.
We won’t see anything about Batista or any other member of the M’s in terms of a negative clubhouse image cause that is not how Baker Rolls, he needs to keep his contacts in a semi favorable light.
Personally I’ve always hated Batista, all the excuses he made for his performances, like tipping his pitches against the Yankees just made me dislike him more.
Oh, that selfish Ichiro — he insists on getting hits instead of grounding out to first base.
. . . Seriously? Do people not realize that this is baseball? Basketball, sure, you can pursue personal accomplishments at the expense of the team — you can play in such a way that your stats are better but the team as a whole is worse. Football, you can do that at some positions (or sulk if you’re not getting the ball, etc.). But baseball? If you can make the case that Ichiro insisted on playing RF when it would have been better for the team for him to stay in CF, okay, you have something you can say against him — but at the plate, the better you hit (and thus the better your stats are), the better the team is. There’s simply no way that you can hit well at the expense of the team — the sport doesn’t work that way.
Unintentional Irony Alert!
versus
Some advice from Lincoln on Presidents day:
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”
What bothers me the most about Batista’s comments is the sense of entitlement that making $9 mil means he deserves to start or close. Then he refers to “kids needing to pitch”.
WRONG Miguel!
You deserve to pitch if you can get hitters out but if you roll out another 5-6 plus ERA and can’t get anyone out, you don’t deserve jack squat on this team!
You got a joke of a contract during good economic times by a GM that didn’t understand how to build the back end of a starting rotation on the cheap. You won the lottery so shut up and cash in your paycheck and stop talking to us about what you need for your next fraking contract!
I am so sick of veteran player thinking they are entitled to spots on the team. So glad the new regime is here and that they believe in competition, not entitlement.
I’m so glad to have seen the last of Mr. Putz. You could cut the slack jaw stupid in that interview with a knife. Ichiro was 6th in the major leagues in 2008 in stolen bases (and had the second best season of his U.S. career) but to Mr. I Can’t Hit the Strike Zone Anymore, it “seems” like he could do more and that’s the reason we lost 101 games. Keerist.
I could be sitting in the nosebleeds with a bunch of drunks from Puyallup and get better analysis than that.
Other than Stephon Marbury you’ll never hear “clubhouse cancer” stories about guys sitting on the bench. That’s because they’re on the bench and no one cares. It doesn’t mean that the guys who don’t contribute as much as the star players don’t have ‘me-first’ attitudes.
Now how come Ichiro never dives for balls?
Because he realizes that playing 162 games a year is more valuable to the team.
My favorite from JJ-
Umm… So it’s a problem that Ichiro only stole bases when he thought he had a great shot at getting it done? He didn’t run in situations where he was likely to get thrown out? WTF?!?!?! Ichiro should grow some balls and run even if they pitch out against him. That would be the gritty thing to do. Willy would run…
If you don’t go out there and do things that are stupid, futile and dangerous, you’re not a team player.
terry:
Sooo, what you think happens is:
“Ichiro just sits in front of his locker, thinking, before games. That’s why I (insert one: grounded into so many doubleplays; blew so many saves; got knocked out in the third inning; threw the ball into the stands; had to retire; couldn’t run fast; let the balls drop in front of me)”.
See:
Morse, Mike; Shoulder; 2008
Beltran, Carlos & Cameron, Mike; everything; 2005
Griffey Jr, Ken; Wrist; 1995
If you have a player who has racked up 33 Value Wins in 7 seasons – approximately 5 per year – do you really want him getting hurt diving for a ball? Or is he worth more to you healthy?
I wish Batista (9 mil) was the 2nd highest paid pitcher on the team (as the article says)…
…that would mean Washburn (10.35 mil) or Silva (12 mil) was traded last August…
I suspect Ichiro is playing as he always has, ever since joining the M’s. What I find humerous is that his approach to the game, whatever it may be, was very likely the same in 2001 as it is now. No one said boo about his play in 2001 because, by golly, they were steamrolling and had several leaders on the team. Now that the team sucks and there’s no leaders, Ichiro’s game is selfish? From my perspective, the FO has not stocked this team with guys to complement Ichiro’s (and others) play. There’s no cohesiveness. Now let’s see what Jackie Z can do. I truely think he’s (and his group) a better evaluator of talent.
There’s a difference here. Batista is saying, essentially, the only way I’m worth $9 million to this team is if I close or start (which of course is a major stretch, but still directionally true), and the only way I’m going to have a job anywhere next year is if I can post some impressive numbers (which is also a good bet). Maybe that’s impolite. But it’s hard to argue.
On the other hand, Putz went out of his way to blast a ballplayer who is no longer a teammate, and who is at least exponentially better than Putz will ever be. He remains what he’s always been–a classless act.
Aside from ‘gritty’, ‘clubhouse leader’ and ‘proven veteran’, it seems like the Mariners have always tried to quietly fill one more role that’s never been publicly declared–’redneck asshole’. Now that both Jeff Nelson and Putz are gone, whatever will we do?
I find Batista’s comments sad yet comical. Sad because he is obviously putting himself ahead of the team. Comical because he thinks he has value. We saw how many teams went after Vidro and Sexson when they were DFA’ed. I believe the same will be for Batista who is pushing 40.
Saying that only stealing when you know you can make it is selfish doesn’t make sense even from a traditional perspective. What stat is Ichiro trying to pat by not stealing? Stolen base percentage? Nobody (besides statheads) cares about stolen base percentage, only total steals. A selfish player would be out there killing rallies trying to reach 80 steals a year.
As for Batista, I’m sure Z would let him rip up his contract if he wants to try to start or close for another team. Even Batista knows he’s not worth 9 million. If he thought he was he would demand to be traded, but he knows nobody would take him at that price.
It’s a logical fallacy to use one player’s selfishness to dismiss or justify another player’s selfish behavior. It’s also wrong to say as a fact that Ichiro is worried about the “team” when he decides not to dive for balls: it’s a guess. I think it’s as likely, though still a guess, that he doesn’t risk injury in the field so his hit numbers don’t fall. I think it’s become clear from Baker and Stone’s reporting that Ichiro is in it for himself, for the hits. I don’t think this is to be admonished necessarily. Selfish motives can breed success.
I speculate (read: speculate), that his goal for the rest of his career is to get as many hits as possible, thus possibly getting enough to get into the HOF.
As pertaining to stealing bases, as someone that played team sports, it’s not necessarily when you think it’s good to steal a base or take a walk, it’s when your coaches think so. To go against the coach on a consistent basis would probably be considered a selfish move as well. Not sure if Ichiro is doing this, but it seems so from the reporting throughout the years.
“Now how come Ichiro never dives for balls?”
I also believe that Ichiro, who is fan of track and field, doesn’t think that diving gets you to the ball faster or more effectively. Much like Carl Lewis, of whom Ichiro is/was a fan, sprinted through the finish line to achieve the best time, Ichiro believes that running through the spot where the ball is headed is more effective than diving to the point where the ball will land.
“To go against the coach on a consistent basis would probably be considered a selfish move as well.”
Has Ichiro refused a direct order on a hit and run or steal sign? If he does that, yes, he should be admonished harshly.
When I read the first bit I thought this was going to be a post about how ridiculous it is for Miguel Batista to KNOW he doesn’t deserve what he’s being paid, but not make the TEAM FIRST offer to renegotiate his contract to clear some payroll space. An extra $7 million laying around would have gone a long way toward getting that impact LH bat we’ve all been talking about. Thanks dood.
But in the end I have to say I agree with JJ, I just hate that Ichiro sooooo much. You know what I hate most about him? The way he lies about being injured and then totally sucks for big chunks of the year. Also I hate the way he’s always blaming other people for his failures. And I especially hate the way we overpay him by a factor of 10. Damn you Ichiro! We would have been in the playoffs last year if not for your horrendous play and selfish attitude.
I think maybe we’re seeing J.J.’s true colors in Stone’s piece. I mean, he gets along with The Bus and Silva, the two biggest crybabies on the team last year. Ichiro is the least of this team’s problems. You can’t argue with 200+ hits and a .300+ average every year. So he’s not a big clubhouse guy. Who cares? Has anyone ever considered that it may be the difference in culture?
I love how Batista freely admits that he is being overpaid for no reason. He is not a closer or a starter and is being paid like one like he says. I’m so happy we have a new regime in town that realizes it’s not ok to pay $9 million per year for a mediocre pitcher with “veteran leadership”.
Batista’s onto something – he’s impossible to move before the season’s up unless he’s achieving some level of success in an important role – closer or starter. If the team were to trade a pitcher in the first months of the season I’d rather it were Batista than Washburn and if that means giving Batista five starts to build value then so be it.
Of course, his being able to build value depends heavily on his being able to get outs, which… yeah when the league puts up a better line against you than Josh Hamilton’s it’s hard to make a case.
I think it’s become clear from Baker and Stone’s reporting that Ichiro is in it for himself, for the hits.
This is why I hate all these conversations. For whatever reason, people love to judge other people’s motives for doing things, then pass judgments on their character based on their guess about someone’s motives they’ve never met.
It’s ridiculously stupid.
If you find yourself doing this, just stop. If you feel like you can get to know someone by what the press writes about them, just stop. If you feel the need to take a shot at someone’s character, despite the fact that you’ve never met them, just stop.
Yea, Batista. Last year, this guy seemed offended that he was named the 5th started citing he had won 16 games before; Then he justified it by saying that the rotation was really going to be good.
Batista is the one that lost his spot last year.
Now he thinks because he’s getting $9 Million he should be closing to get saves or starting to get wins so he can look good for another team.
Of course, this douche could have possibly gone to another team THIS year had he not completely tanked it. His last season made him completely untradable.
Meanwhile, people want to “knock out Ichiro” for not going the “extra mile” because apparently, Ichiro adding 4 to 5 wins to his team by being himself is not enough.
JJ learned so much form his blow hard mentor Eddie: the ‘funny’ pies, the gritty ‘I must pitch even when I’m injured and will hurt my team’, the post team comments ‘they screwed me with the trade’, and the cowardly ‘in your face but I’m outta site whining’. Too bad, he had some good times here, SEE YA!!!
JJ learned so much form his blow hard mentor Eddie: the ‘funny’ pies, the gritty ‘I must pitch even when I’m injured and will hurt my team’, the post team comments ‘they screwed me with the trade’, and the cowardly ‘in your face but I’m outta site whining’. Too bad, he had some good times here, SEE YA!!!
I read Putz’s interview as a sterling example of the veteran entitlement days of the Bavasi era.
Batista’s quotes seem to support that.
Funny how the Mariners like to trumpet how important character is in the hiring process. Given the comments from Putz and Batista, upper management’s ability to discern character and leadership was on a par with their ability to judge baseball talent.
“It’s a logical fallacy to use one player’s selfishness to dismiss or justify another player’s selfish behavior.” -mattiemc
You’re misinterpreting the post. Dave isn’t trying to dismiss or justify Ichiro’s “selfishness”. He is pointing out that Ichiro gets a totally unfair amount of public/player/media criticism for being “selfish” when other players (like Batista), who also exhibit behavior that may be subjectively judged as “selfish” don’t get criticized at all. The argument is that Ichiro gets criticized far more than is warranted.
Is it likely that Batista or Washburn turn it around? I think Dr.Z should have both of them on a short leash. Give them until the all-star break, then trade them both(i know highly unlikely) or just relase them both and just eat the contracts. This would show everyone that things are going to change. Get the selfish players off the team now! These two knuckelheads are making $20million, thats freaking nuts. ATTITUDE IS CONTAGIOUS.
And his new best bud in the Mets clubhouse will most likely be none other than Billy “I’ve-NEVER-thrown-any-of-my-teammates-under-the-bus” Wagner…
In this quote, you’re making a judgment, as if you knew his motives. I, for one, don’t think you were being ridiculously stupid.
If people haven’t already, there is a wonderful article by Michael Lewis about basketball in this Sunday’s NY Times Magazine: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html
It’s great all around, but here is a particularly relevant quote, explaining the differences between the different sports:
Even though it’s mainly about basketball, it’s very much worth reading.
Yup, Putz is better off gone, and we’re better off with Ichiro(!). Batista is going to be unhappy, it sounds like. The things the coaches have to say at the end of that Hickey piece make it sound like they’re pretty doubtful that he’s going to be the closer. Putz suggested Corcoran for the job. That could be the first smart thing he’s said in a Mets uniform.
Now how come Ichiro never dives for balls?
Because perhaps he figures having Ichiro in the field and at the plate 160 games a year is more valuable to the team than a couple of extra outs combined with 30 or more games missed on the DL (see Michael Morse). That’s the net effect, even if the reason he does it is because the style of play he’s developed / adopted is one that doesn’t involve dives. Even if he’s just terrified of hitting the turf, and thinks his body is a temple that should not be violated by grass stains, the net effect is the same: a healthy Ichiro makes for a better team.
Honestly I haven’t seen many balls where diving would’ve made any difference to catching them or not. Maybe two or three a year (and the guys who dive a lot don’t catch all the balls they dive at anyway). Raul never dove for balls either — he did that feet-first slide thing sometimes, but never a head-first dive — but nobody seemed to criticize him for it (maybe because he was such a mediocre fielding talent in the first place).
thank you.
It’s still ok if we do that stuff in regards to Batista and Putz right?
I still don’t get the whole “selfish” thing. What’s Ichiro doing (or not doing) that’s perceived as selfish? Moving runners over? Not hitting home runs? Slapping singles when a double into the gap is what’s needed? Not being a vocal clubhouse leader when no one else seems to want to take on that job? As several have already said, no one said anything about selfishness when the team was winning 90+ games.
Mattiemc accurately points out that Ichiro may be blowing off the coaches when it comes to following instructions at the plate. If that’s the case, then the logical course is to reprimand/bench him, as Tek Jansen suggests, as you should any player that’s doesn’t toe the company line. And because of Ichiro’s high status with ownership, perhaps no one has had the balls to do this yet.
As for Batista, he should not be allowed to talk about his role on the team until after his ERA is lower than a Boeing model number.
Anyone have an archive of last season’s games? People should go back and review the games in New York. I think that there was a game where there was a fly ball to CF and Matsui was able to take 2nd on a poor throw. After that I believe he scored on a hit to the RC gap. I believe you’ll see the pitcher glaring out into CF during that sequence, and if I remember correctly the pitcher was JJ.
After that, I wasn’t surprised that JJ was traded this off season. Hidden in the clubhouse? These things were happening right out on the field.
At least he doesn’t do the ultimate in selfishness-draw walks.
Ichiro runs down the balls and catches them while staying on his feet. Most other guys diving all over the place don’t have the speed or recognition that Ichiro does.
I work with a lot of Japanese men (Shimano) in Asia and their personalities are often more blunt and tot he point. I can easily see a bunch of guys from outside Japan assuming they’re selfish but I’d take a Japanese team-member for work, for games or for battle any day. Incredible to believe that Ichiro can be judged harshly for trying so hard at Baseball while other guys can use drugs or over-eat or party too much, etc. and that’s just being a dude.
Actually, I’m pretty sure Ichiro has never sat in front of his locker thinking those things…
Larry Stone just posted his latest installment of “The World According to J.J.” Can you believe the poison J.J is spewing?
Beltre helped the team by playing injured. Sexson hurt the team severely by playing injured. Yet Putz can’t tell the difference. I’m sure Putz would say the same about any pitcher, like himself or Miguel Batista, who lied about his injuries to keep playing.
Ichiro, by contrast, though he’s said has no use for stats, understands intuitively what sabrmetricians know maximizes a team’s chances of winning – making difficult outs look easy, playing everyday, bunting very sparingly, etc. His otherworldly work ethic, IMO, makes him a much better leader and example for his teammates (especially young ones) than most “team guys.” That’s why he became my favorite player when Mike Cameron left (though Felix, of course, is King).
People really do need to resist the seduction of the sports writers. It’s so easy to allow them to lead you by the nose into adopting their opinion of people you’ve never met. It’s like the old joke “I used to think the brain was the most important organ in the body, until I realized who was telling me this.” The sports writers are going to tend to like the guys who give them lots of interviews, who give them quotes to work with, who make their jobs easier. That’s human nature, and it colors their writing (though the best writers will recognize and resist that, you don’t find many of those). So they’re naturally going to be hostile to the guys who don’t answer a lot of questions or provide a reliable quote. And if you’re a writer, the best quotes are the ones that lead to more stories — quotes about other players, quotes that create a controversy, quotes that establish or propel a story arc. That’s especially true if you find (or create the perception of) a rift in the clubhouse, because once one guy has said something on the record the other guys feel compelled to defend themselves or each other. For the writer, each of those is another story finished and filed, another day’s work done. You’re going to be happy with anybody who gives you more to work with, and give them plenty of opportunity to lob something back to keep the arc alive. The only guys you’re not going to be happy with are the ones who refuse to play along.
Of course that’s not particularly good for the atmosphere in the clubhouse. To the extent “chemistry” matters, to the extent team morale matters, you’d really want all those guys to just shut the hell up, to stop lobbing quotes, to stop feeding the fires. From that standpoint, from the team standpoint, the best players are the ones who don’t give interviews, the ones who don’t talk to the reporters. So from the point of view of putting the team first, Bedard and Ichiro are most team-oriented guys in the clubhouse.
Ichiro may be the clubhouse cancer in some players’/media members’ eyes, but he’s not the one being traded for prospects.
In regards to Ichiro’s demeanor, I don’t know anything about the Mariners’ clubhouse or the players in it, but in general introverted people will typically be less popular with others because their lack of communication is seen as a sign they aren’t interested in interacting. Which is sometimes true. They are not interested in jocular BS’ing, trite cliches, and making sure everyone’s sensitive egos are kept soothed. They take care of themselves, and figure everyone else should, too.
From quotes from other players, Ichiro does not seem to be a popular man in the clubhouse, at least in the eyes of a certain group of players. All we really know from this is that JJ Putz doesn’t like the way Ichiro conducts himself, and since JJ Putz was a popular player who did things like put shaving cream pies in other peoples’ faces during interviews, the media and some fans will eat him up and believe what he says.
I don’t think it’s unfair at all to suggest that if Ichiro were more outgoing / spoke better English he’d be more popular with his teammates, but this is baseball and not a popularity contest, and we don’t need popular players. We need good ones, and Ichiro is that, so who really cares what the man is really like?
Batista, you are 100% correct. We shouldn’t pay someone $9M to pitch middle relief. So hey, let’s renegotiate your contract for $500,000 this year. Either that or, release the M’s from their contract with you no strings attached and see who takes you on the open market as a starter or closer for half that. What in the world are you complaining about? You are old and spent, you still have a job even though nobody wants you! Bavasi isn’t GMing somewhere anymore!
“the seduction of the sports writers”
I believe that this is the title of the worst soft-core Cinemax movie ever.
argh (sarcastically): If you don’t go out there and do things that are stupid, futile and dangerous, you’re not a team player.
That seems to be the mentality of football folks. See one Shaun Alexander for a prime example.
Could we also not assume that because someone is traded it is because they somehow offended the star or the owner or both?
Particularly if there was a good baseball reason for trading said player?
There may have also been some visibly peeved infielders on that play, but none of them got moved in the offseason.
Except that in his book, “Ichiro on Ichiro”, Ichiro clearly lays out the argument for why he does not dive more often.
Then there is the fact that he does indeed dive for balls when he feels it best serves the team…
Frankly the guy’s whole approach to the game is from a team context…
Dave is absolutely right about the foolishness of judging a player based upon the opinion of a sportswriter. It’s intellectual flatulence.
Man, that was quite the cohesive unit old Bavasi built and Mac managed. What a bunch of babies they were.
Regarding Ichiro not “diving” (I guess you mean headfirst) for balls, what is your problem with this? Ichiro slides feet first, where he is more likely to trap the ball if it hops, and he’s in a position to make a good throw. The ball is much less likely to get by him this way. I agree with the previous post: Ichiro behaves intuitively in line with sabremetric because he understands that baseball for a player is a game of probability. You take calculated risks based on reward and cost. I agree with his play: headfirst dives end up costing you in the long run, in missed balls. If it were a tie game, bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, a man on 3rd, a short flare just out of reach if he slides, I’d bet my paycheck he dives headfirst for it in that situation.
It’s funny when people in the ‘know’ start talking about chemistry. When teams are losing they blame the chemistry or lack thereof, but when teams are winning that chemistry is never mentioned.
Ichiro’s perceived selfishness is a story because it’s Ichiro. Batista is just some overpaid schmuck so his selfishness and putting his numbers first ahead of the team won’t garner any stories because nobody cares about him. I don’t understand how anyone can look at a guy like Ichiro and not see a guy who goes out and gives 100% every day.
Oh well, I’m just glad we have him.
Whenever I read anything about Ichiro’s alleged difficulties in the clubhouse, I’m always amazed at how easily people forget how popular he was in 2001 when he first arrived. This article in Time provides a couple of choice quotes:
and
Of course, then there’s this:
Ichiro’s still the same guy he was in 2001, but all of his teammates have changed. So who’s to blame for the lousy team chemistry that’s apparently developed since then?
Baker’s most recent piece illustrates the kind of guy a good clubhouse needs; one that will keep sensitive issues in-house and not spew personal matters to a story-hungry journalist.
I wish we had more Adrain Beltre-type players on the team, and not just becuase he kicks ass on the field, but he knows how to handle clubhouse business as well.
Baker also leaves out a quote that Hickey gets: “I think you guys are making too much of this.”
Yep.
But what about that old adage: where there’s flatulence, there’s beans?
Baker mustve been up against space limits.
“That’s a good question because we had a good lineup. We had a good lineup one through nine. We had five solid starting rotation guys and we had a good bullpen.”
Thank goodness we don’t pay Beltre to understand what a solid roster looks like.
I really dislike Baker…his style of reporting is really getting annoying, it’s like he’s skimming the shallow end of the dried up pond in terms of depth of topic.
The problem is that Ichiro makes things look easy. He’s such an incredible specimen that I think a lot of people, even other professional athletes, expect more out of him. Potentially too much. If he doesn’t put up a highlight play every other inning, they assume he isn’t trying.
He goes out there, works hard, does what’s needed to win games, and doesn’t cry to the media when things go poorly. If he’s just in it to pad his stats, then I don’t think he would have signed an extension with us. He would have gone to a team with real power where he would get more runs in addition to his hits. Where the line up posed some threat (other than Raul), so they had to pitch to him rather than around him. His numbers would probably be significantly better if he was on a decent team the past few years.
But, it’s spring! and we don’t have anything more to say about Griffey until tomorrow! And everyone knows it had to be chemistry that made them lose!!
One does kind of get the sense that Baker was wetting himself this off season anticipating a chance to ask Beltre “the question that had to be asked”.
Well, JJ might have been right about Sexson “hurting more that anyone even knows”…
Probably because he was already washed up and knew it.
I think Batista stinks, but I hope that he thinks he can win the Cy Young this year. I don’t want a player on my team that thinks he has the potential to be mediocre or the potential to be maybe a middle reliever. I hope Batista throws so well that they can’t keep him out of one of the roles he wants, but if not, who cares? If he pitches well, he’s traded. If he pitches poorly, he’s cut or pitches middle relief.
Or, as Sammy Hagar once put it, “mental masturbation”.
Oh, Baker. You are a complex and divisive figure.
I love how he throws an e-pissy fit about the Griffey story, basically telling us that it’s not worth covering, and then he turns around and promotes the same non-story that he’s been pushing for the last year.
One step forward and two steps back….
Drayer weighs in on it.
great job Geoff. Watching Ichiro over the years, I wondered why he didn’t steal more, why he bunted with two outs, and why he didn’t try to hit the home run when it was needed. As much as he brings to the table, I hope Wak and Jack sit him down and talk to him about TEAM play. Maybe he will not conform and go back to Japan, because there is no way the M’s would trade him .
go M’s
“Watching Ichiro over the years, I wondered why he didn’t steal more, why he bunted with two outs, and why he didn’t try to hit the home run when it was needed.”
Yes, it certainly is selfish of Ichiro to not be a combination of Babe Ruth and Rickey Henderson.
I should run a correlation between people who don’t capitalize and people who think Ichiro is selfish.
Dave, you would have to factor in those who use ALL CAPS and lots of exclamation points!!!!
TRADE ICHIRO!!!! NOW NOW!!!!11!!!!one!!!!
LONG LIVE RAUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!11!!!!1!!!!
I read a lot of clubhouse myopia in the intensely stupid comments from JJ Putz here.
Some perspective might have helped. Maybe not.
I’ve got to say, I’ve lost some of my affection for JJ after this.
And for all of the M’s players and all of the M’s fans…repeat after me…ICHIRO IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
I always look forward to insightful and valuable analysis on USS Mariner. I really do and I am not just saying that. This is a great site. But when it comes to #51 – there is a blind loyalty bordering on fanaticism here that is a huge contrast to the rest of your intense fact based commentary.
You cite Batista as your straw man to defend Ichiro? You guys are getting desperate. Batista is finished and worthless. May be he can contribute on the margins in the bullpen this year if we are lucky. But this is the last year he draws big $ in MLB. He knows it (but doesn’t want to say so in public), we know it, the Mariners know it and so does everyone else is baseball. Selfish? No, he is just either delusional or too proud to admit in public that he is at the end of the road.
Does Ichiro suck? No, he is good ball player. Can you win with him on the team? Sure, they have done so in the past. Is he worth anything close to $17M a year? Not even close. Is there a problem when you give that kind of cash to a player who insists on batting 1st but refuses to look at pitches or walk and who you gives you the kind of offensive production that he did in 2008? Yes, a big one. Is that problem magnified by the fact that there seems to be two sets of rules on that team that breed resentment towards him by the rest of the team? Yep, in a big way. Lou, Edgar, Dan, Jay and Jamie are long gone and the inmates seem to be running the asylum now.
Baseball is still team sport and there are winning cultures and losing cultures in any organization or business. Anyone who has played team sports or worked in any organization knows this. Does this have something to do with the sad state of Mariners the past years? Absolutely. It is certainly not the only issue, but it is an issue. Ask yourself, what would the reaction be here to any other player making $17M a year who throws up a line of .310 BA,.361 OBP, 103 Runs, 6 HRs, 42 RBI? Sure it looks good as compared to what Sexson gave us for $14M last year – but that is hardly high praise.
Ichiro will never be traded and he knows it and uses that fact to his advantage. First, the Japanese ownership would never allow it. Exhibit A – the Kenji contract that was dictated from Toyko. That fact is not even questioned now and the front office does not even try to justify it. Second, there are his casual fans who show up with their 51 hats and jerseys. Ask yourself, what would the reaction be to anyone other player who insists on dictating where in the order he hits and where in the outfield he plays? You think Joe Torre, Ozzie Guillen or Terry Francona would put up with that BS? You think it is a coincidence that he is the one player who insists on putting his first name on his uniform? If any other player did they would be castigated for it. With Ichiro, “it is part of his charm”.
I’d like to see Wakamatsu show some stones and walk up to him and say “you are hitting third – I want you to hit 20 HRs and drive in 110 runs with all of the singles you hit. If you won’t walk I will find someone who will and they will be on second when you get up.” Needless to say I am not counting on that since I am sure he would fear he would sulk and/or undermine him with ownership. That my friends, is one reason we got to where we are. Not the only reason mind you – Bill Bavasi saw to that. But a reason.
Go look at what Beltre had to say today. He is trying to be nice and start fresh – we’ll see if #51 decides to do the same and change his ways. I am not counting on it. Beltre is a warrior and I love how he plays hurt and never complains. He is the type of player great teams have on them. He is a leader and if forced to choose between the two, the decision would be obvious to any objective observer.
In the short term, this is really an issue for Wakamatsu – he’s the one that needs to make clear what his expectations are for “how to play the game”. It’s his job to define that for the team and make sure that players understand his philosophy and adhere to it, and deal with players that don’t follow his instructions or undermine him by promoting different philosophies.
In the longer term, this is an issue for the sport itself to resolve – what really is the best way to play the game “right”. I think this is a by-product of the fact that baseball is the least team oriented of the major sports, and yet there is such a premium placed on team play. To resolve this inherent disconnect, many players and coaches over emphasize things they see as “team play” that in fact have little positive value or in fact have negative value.
Please click on the link in my original post above to Ichiro’s Fangraphs page which shows his Win Values per year as well as the market based cost of those Wins and his actual salary.
Last year, in his 2nd worst year as a Mariner, he contributed 3.9 context-neutral wins. At a fair market price, those were worth $17.5M. Ichiro was paid $17.1M. He actually slightly out produced his salary. For his career he has produced 33 Wins at a fair market value of $113.8M while the M’s have paid him (not including Posting fee) $69.5M.
You talk about being fact-based and neutral; yet your core argument “Is he worth anything close to $17M a year? Not even close.” rings hollow when it is factually untrue.
“you are hitting third – I want you to hit 20 HRs and drive in 110 runs with all of the singles you hit. If you won’t walk I will find someone who will and they will be on second when you get up.â€
Hey, why stop at 20?
Why not command Ichiro to break Bonds’ single season home run record and Hack Wilson’s single season RBI record. That’s the secret of managing. Wak should also command Wash to strikeout 314 batters and post a 2.24 ERA.
Ichiro doesn’t dicate where he will play in the lineup and the field. He has his preferences, like all players, but he was moved to center and has batted third before.
But when it comes to #51 – there is a blind loyalty bordering on fanaticism here that is a huge contrast to the rest of your intense fact based commentary.
Ichiro, Dollar Values by Year since 2002:
2002: $10.3 million
2003: $14.2 million
2004: $20.3 million
2005: $10.2 million
2006: $18.4 million
2007: $23.0 million
2008: $17.5 million
Take your claim of bias and shove it.
Ichiro, Dollar Values by Year since 2002:
2002: $10.3 million
2003: $14.2 million
2004: $20.3 million
2005: $10.2 million
2006: $18.4 million
2007: $23.0 million
2008: $17.5 million
Take your claim of bias and shove it.
Amen to that!
This guy’s a plant, right? I mean, it’s too convenient for someone to come in here and rehash all of the anti-Ichiro stuff, and then quote HR’s and RBI’s from last year. Right? Please? I feel bad for Dave and DMZ. This offseason is getting realllllly long. I’m tired of reading this stuff, I’m sure they are really tired of it.
Seriously, though, Ros, if you want to know why we say Ichiro is good around here, check this out. His numbers are down a bit since then, but only a bit. There are just better ways to measure contribution than walks, home runs, team chemistry, batting average, and the name you choose for your jersey. It’s a little complicated, and takes some time to learn, but that doesn’t make it less real.
yeah, the way Torre put the best player at SS.
BTW, didn’t we hear that Ichiro was playing with a bad hamstring last year? So, doesn’t that mean he is a warrior, too?
Yeah I’m pretty sure RosanjinScholar is just Dave throwing himself lob balls in the backyard.
Telling Ichiro what to do reminds me of the “Homer at the Bat” Simpsons episode.
Burns: Hey Strawberry! Hit a home run!
Strawberry: Ok Skip. {Hits HR onto freeway}
Burns: I told him to do that.
Larry Stone gets Jim Riggleman to chime in on Ichiro.
Great work by Stone and some great quotes by Riggleman.
From what I have read about Beltre’s remarks, I respect his position that this stuff needs to be handled in-house, rather than through the media (unlike JJ, who threw Ichiro under the bus right after claiming he doesn’t do that sort of thing). Beltre then goes on to explain some examples of what can be termed “playing the game right” or “team-oriented”. The examples include bunting, walking, not free-swinging, throwing to the right base, etc., the kinds of things that “help a team win”. Now the fun begins, because the media, understandably, will sort through these examples to see if Beltre has any teammate(s) in mind. Betancourt? Lopez? Ichiro? Drayer offers some clues–she says that Beltre confronted Ichiro (privately) after he threw to the wrong base “one too many times”. WTF???? Now, through dribs and drabs, we learn Ichiro is regularly trying to throw runners out who he has no chance of nailing? So much so that Beltre is calling him out (albeit privately)? Have I missed something (despite following the M’s closely since 1977)? So Ichiro is not only selfish at the plate but also in the field? [Note to self: Figure out how Ichiro benefits personally by throwing to the wrong base.]
Stone gives an update from Riggleman (he talked to him at the Nationals camp.) It’s classic Riggs:
I kind of miss that guy.
“You think it is a coincidence that he is the one player who insists on putting his first name on his uniform? If any other player did they would be castigated for it. With Ichiro, “it is part of his charmâ€.
Myth of Ichiro #112
“
I just assumed it was snark.
Ichiro doesn’t need to dictate where he hits in the order; his skillset does it for him. He’s the best player on the team at getting on base, and he’s the best base-stealer.
And I guess Ichiro agreeing to move to center to help the team was also selfish?
Maybe we should make Ichiro play shortstop and tell him to hit 50 homers this year. If he doesn’t do it, just get rid of him, because he obviously doesn’t care about winning.
Is the tail wagging the dog? So I click on the Beltre comments and now I’m curling my lip at him too. Good job, journalists. Maybe we shouldn’t know how these guys think; I’m losing respect by the minute.
If Beltre is the great clubhouse leader, why have Betancourt and Lopez regressed? Or maybe this clubhouse leader thing is crap, and each player should work with the people PAID to make them better, coaches and trainers, and be responsible for their own performance?
If there’s a problem with the way Ichiro plays the game, let the manager deal with it. That’s why there’s a manager, and this isn’t a plumbing company’s softball team.
Edited to add: All I had to hear was Raul was Beltre’s idea of a great player. If he can’t see how much Raul was hurting the team by playing left field, he’s not a judge of who should be throwing home instead of the cut off man.
Keep piling on – you are just proving my point. I knew what the reaction would be. But it is your site, fire away. It is just amazing the reaction that any, I mean any, criticism of this guy gets. As I said, I am not blaming him for all or most of the Mariner’s problems, but I am willing to look critically at the whole team, not just 24 of them.
“Why not command Ichiro to break Bonds’ single season home run record and Hack Wilson’s single season RBI record. That’s the secret of managing. Wak should also command Wash to strikeout 314 batters and post a 2.24 ERA”
Nice try. I simply ask that a free swinging singles hitter actually hit in more situations with men on base. You distort it into me asking that he lead the league in homers. See Riggleman’s quote on “you need to be Boone” – he agrees with me. I am not asking him to hit 40 HRs.
“Ichiro doesn’t dictate where he will play in the lineup and the field. He has his preferences, like all players, but he was moved to center and has batted third before.”
Not much I can say if you actually believe that, but I have some Florida real estate to sell you if you do. Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.
This outfield has no power – none – and that is a problem. I am not saying that defense isn’t important and I will not miss Ibanez’s play in LF (and no I don’t want Junior out there either) – but you need to score runs as well. Zduriencik is smart enough to pick his battles as the new GM and I am sure he figured moving him back to CF wasn’t worth it. To his credit he went out and got a good prospect for center – let’s hope so. But I would argue we already had a very good centerfielder on this team.
Sure – go ahead and rip Torre too. He must have found those 4 rings in a cereal box.
You made a claim that we lack objectivity when it comes to Ichiro. We pointed to the gold standard in objective systems for evaluating Ichiro’s value, and it shows that he’s worth every penny.
Now, you have two options – you can admit you were wrong and retract your claim of bias, or lose all credibility and continue to defend a ridiculous point.
That’s up to you.
A cereal box that cost $200 million.
Yes! Defending claims that we’re biased by proving we’re right ONLY PROVES WE’RE BIASED!
Clearly the only correct path there would have been to be wrong but agree with you. Sorry. We’ll do that immediately.
He’s right, everyone! I’ve seen the light! Ichiro sucks! He should hit more with men on base! And uhhh.. Joe Torre sucks, though I’m not sure why I’m saying that!
You said a manager like Torre would have “the stones” to confront a player who insisted on playing a position, when he would be more valuable elsewhere. I mentioned a position on the Yankees that has been filled during the last few years by the lesser defensive player, in theory because said player doesn’t want to move.
RosanjinScholar-
I responded and showed how the cornerstone of your argument was factually incorrect. You then claim that people are “piling on” by continuing to show you how you were wrong.
You’re acting like the people who say that Beltre is under-achieving because he’s not putting up the numbers he did in his walk year with the Dodgers. When Dave, DMZ, and posters here respond with something like “Beltre was paid $50.6M and contributed $56.9M worth of runs as a Mariner and has actually outperformed his contract” those people get mad because they don’t like being proven wrong.
Hey! Puckett & Furness must be Loyal USSM readers! They too have been irrationally hypnotized into thinking that Ichiro is worth what he makes, and that it is wrong to blame him for the team’s struggles when he is doing just what he did when they were winning, and not coincidently had a better team around him. There was also a comment about JJ and glass houses …
ok… i don’t feel bad for Miguel Batista, because he’s going to get paid $9 million this year to do whatever he does and not do it very well. I can understand the Mariners could and probably should not care less about what he gets paid next year, because they’re paying him for THIS year.
However, I can sympathize with Miguel on this a little. This is his livelihood we’re talking about. I think it’s easy to look past this as fans. He is going to pitch next year. Some team is going to want him to pitch for them, and rightfully so. He might not be great, but he’s also not the worst pitcher in baseball. There are worse pichers who will get paid more to ply their trade next year. Mariners fans all wish some other team was paying him $9 million to do whatever this year, but that’s why the Mariners have a different GM in place now than when he signed.
Some teams next year are going to base what compensation they offer Miguel on the numbers he puts up this year… and many of them only care about wins or saves when it comes down to it (yes, I’m looking at you, Jim Bowden). Therefore, pitching in middle relief will do absolutely nothing for Miguel, even if he excels at it. In fact, any GM worth their salt, is going to use that to offer him LESS money.
If the Mariners aren’t going to use him to start (which they shouldn’t ever have to) or close (actually wouldn’t be that bad, considering they could use their “better” relievers in higher-leverage innings), they should probably look to send him somewhere as soon as possible… and do it completely under the veil of “Miguel’s benefit”, making sure every potential free agent from here to eternity knows that’s exactly why they’re doing it.
I certainly want the Mariners to be able to sign players better than Miguel Batista, now that the Marinershave a GM who can spend wisely… and I would hate for the Mariners to lose out because, in the eyes of a young player coming into his prime, signing with the Mariners might mean a potential big pay day down the road.
I would either make Batista the closer or work him out as a starter and try hard to work out a trade… and if he goes out and sucks like last year, then it was his fault anyway.
Where could the Mariners send him? Right now, I don’t know if another team would take him even if the M’s ate $8M of the 9 he is owed this season. Maybe if he has a good start to the year as a “proven closer” the team can ship him out without eating the whole contract.
I don’t think any team in baseball would take him and his salary unless he doesn’t suck… it’s a win-win for the Mariners either way to make him the leading candidate to either close or stretch him out as a starter… that way he either is valuable to another team and you get something (anything) in return for him… or he sucks and you can do whatever you want with him and he can’t say diddly about it.
Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.
Which is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not Ichiro does what’s best for the team. For whatever reason, the team asked him to move back to right field. Ichiro said:
Maybe they think it will help him stay healthy as he moves into the later years of his career. Maybe they think he just wasn’t all that good in center. Who knows? But the fact is Ichiro was asked to move to center, and he obliged. He was later asked to move back to right, and he obliged.
If you’re looking for a reason to criticize Ichiro, you’re probably better off going with hearsay and rumors, because at least those aren’t demonstrably false. But criticizing him for doing exactly what the team asks him to do is running counter to what you’re trying to do.
How to lose 100 games in three easy steps:
1. Get no offensive production whatsoever from SS, 1B, DH, C, CF.
2. Get poor to abysmal defense from LF, SS, C, 1B, CF.
3. Get consistently mediocre to downright terrible pitching from over 1/2 the staff….Batista and Putz most certainly included!
Ichiro’s contribution to this collective of individual performances is what exactly?
Stat hounds feel free to correct me if I’m in error here……
I have read a few different analysis of base stealing that all the draw the same conclusions about the diminishing returns of the steal. Basically if you’re not 80-85% successful on steal attempts the outs you’re giving up are more detrimental to the offense than the gains from the bases you’re picking up.
Perhaps Ichiro understands this? I trust his baseball intelligence in evaluating factors like the pitcher’s move to 1st, time to the plate, catcher’s arm, and the overall game situation. Or to put it another way, he probably knows the craft a little better than Mr. Putz.
“Fact is that Ichiro is a more valuable player to the M’s in center with his speed and overall defensive ability and he should still be there.”
No he is not. Right now, he is not the best CF on the team. With the current roster, his skills benefit the team most as a RF.
Basically if you’re not 80-85% successful on steal attempts the outs you’re giving up are more detrimental to the offense than the gains from the bases you’re picking up.
Right, although I thought the break-even point was closer to 75%
“‘Ichiro doesn’t dictate where he will play in the lineup and the field. He has his preferences, like all players, but he was moved to center and has batted third before.’â€
Not much I can say if you actually believe that, but I have some Florida real estate to sell you if you do.”
Actually, I do believe that, and yes, I am certain that there is a lot of real estate in Florida that is for sale. You might not be able to sell it, but unsold or for-sale properties certainly exist in Florida and elsewhere.
Tango has a nice article about the controversy over Ichiro’s fielding stats, but whatever the rough stats are, it’s pretty clear he’s a better fielding right fielder than center fielder.
Undoubtedly, Ichiro as right fielder presents a challenge to a general manager to get power from less traditional positions. I think the strategy of starting with improved fielding and its likely effect on the morale of the pitching staff is a good one, given that fielding is underpriced in this market and there were no magic bullet upgrades offensively available this offseason. We’re not winning any pennants with one-and-a-half power positions (3B and RF when Branyan plays). I don’t think that’s Ichiro’s fault.
so he might know his capabilities better than others? Like he might know when to steal a base, or something? nah.
Wow. Those Riggleman quotes are great! He’s just proverbially kicking some folks right in the nuts. His comment here (referring to a talk he had with the “complainers”):
Some scathing stuff! He’s pretty much telling everybody that the ones who were vocal about Ichiro were the pitchers. He then goes on to specifically name Silva (who was already known) and then Bedard as well. With Putz’s comments and with Beltre’s comments (where it seems that if the position players did have a problem they weren’t vocal about it), and Washburn’s forked tongue on Jojima, it’s becoming clear which side of the team was really the cancer.
I also love this quote (about Ichiro’s place in the offense):
Someone call Greg Anderson, we need some clear up here STAT!
Several people here have referred to Larry Stone as a “sportswriter”. This is not only wrong, but rather nasty. Mr. Stone writes about baseball, but he is not a member of those ignorant, opinionated shit lapdogs known, in shorthand, as “sportswriters”..
Putz needs to talk to non-pitchers and people who weigh less than their monthly salary again.
I’m sure no one is still looking at this thread, but I’m sorry, this comment really bugs me:
You’d like him to get into more situations with men on base, or you’d like him to hit better when put into that situation? Ichiro is a lead-off hitter, so you’re either asking him to change his role on the team (which he’s quite capable of, but who do you suggest lead off instead, and why?) So criticizing him for doing what the team asks him to do seems rather lame. And it’s awfully hard for him to “hit in more situations with men on base” when 3581 (60%) of his 5929 career PAs have been leading of an inning; only 2085 (35%) of his PAs have occurred with men on base. By comparison, middle-of-the-order hitters get manny more opportunities: Manny Ramierez has had 4573 (50%) of 9006 career PAs with men on; Pujols has had 2643 (49%) of 5382 PAs with men on.
If you’re asking him to actually hit like a MOTO guy when he comes to bat with men on, well, he already does:
Men on:
Ichiro: .333
Manny: .330
Pujols: .337
RISP:
Pujols: .344
Ichiro: .341
Manny: .329
Bases loaded:
Ichiro: .434
Pujols: .378
Manny: .326
Bases loaded is a relatively small sample size, of course.
Now, Manny and Albert slug more so they’ll pick up extra bases in “clutch” situations, but the gap between Ichiro and Manny at least is not as large as you’d think — and Ichiro “actually hits” a lot more than Manny.
2 outs, RISP
Ichiro: .355 (.946 OPS)
Pujols: .329 (1.179)
Manny: .314 (1.067 OPS)
Late and close (7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.)
Ichiro: .336 (.830 OPS)
Pujols: .315 (1.055)
Manny: .276 (.901 OPS)
Of the three, you’d obviously want Pujols. But if you’re looking for a guy to “actually hit” in situations with men on base, you’d pick Ichiro over Manny.