Ichiro returns to fetid odor of Silva suggestions
With the return of our Japanese contingent, Baker at the Times finally got to ask Ichiro about last year’s chemistry questions. Ichiro: Time to act like “professionals” is the result, a long piece including much Ichiro-ness.
But I want to take a second and question the premise of this:
There’s been a whole lot said since Ichiro was last here and he had to be asked for a response to all of it. Doesn’t matter whether it makes us feel uncomfortable asking, or whether the timing would have been better two months ago. Ichiro wasn’t here two months ago. He was here today.
Wait:
he had to be asked for a response to all of it.
Does he? What happens if he isn’t?
Now, this is a fine follow-up, in which a story which was built, briefly caught fire, and was rekindled this spring is continued.
But at the heart of this is the fundamental disagreement I’ve had with the whole thing: that it must be reported, and followed. The whole thing operates on the premise that it’s important, which I obviously disagree with, and moreover that it was a cause of rather than result of the team’s poor fortunes last year. We’ve talked about that a lot: clearly Geoff believes that this was a key factor in last year’s failure, and it’s been something he’s talked about over and over (and included his reasons, so I’ll refer you there).
What you get then is this:
* Clubhouse chemistry is an important factor in a team’s success
* Therefore, clubhouse chemistry is an important story to cover
* Therefore, there’s a need to report stories which allege clubhouse factions, threats of violence averted by clubhouse * meetings, etc, even if that means using and protecting blind sources, and itself creates controversy
* When clubhouse chemistry is an ongoing controversy and topic of discussion, further stories following up on it are called for
Which made this exchange stand out
After asking me for specifics about what Riggleman had said about the other players, he then immediately asked if I had any specific examples of what he could do differently to make the situation better.
Since he seemed to be waiting for an answer to his question, I shrugged and said: “Talk to them?” (Refering, of course, to anyone with a beef). [sic]
Not really my place to be telling anyone in that clubhouse how to go about their business, but he was asking and someone had to fill the void, so I put it out there. Once I did, Ichiro finally did answer the initial question., but he was asking and someone had to fill the void, so I put it out there. Once I did, Ichiro finally did answer the initial question.
Wait, what?
Not really my place to be telling anyone in that clubhouse how to go about their business
This is where it all led. It is, by this logic, okay to judge that chemistry is bad, to advance the opinion that chemistry is important, use that to justify covering and later actively building a story from blind sourcing (later found to be of particularly dubious quality), creating a nationally-covered controversy about Ichiro’s safety in the M’s clubhouse, cover it through spring training again as a possible risk to this year’s team and so on.
Since he seemed to be waiting for an answer to his question, I shrugged and said: “Talk to them?”
I don’t want to get into the absurdity of that response, since obviously Geoff wasn’t prepared to offer a cogent analysis. I want to get into what went into that response:
In all of the reporting done on this, in all of the interviews named and unnamed, nothing came up?
Really? At no point in talking to Carlos Silva about what a jerk Ichiro was did the question “what do you want him to do?” come up? Or Putz? Or, assuming there were additional sources, those guys?
And if that was it, if the only thing Silva wanted was for the cool guy to come over and talk to him more often — doesn’t that destroy the premise of the whole thing, from start to finish? If the people who are complaining so long and so vociferously have complaints so trivial that they don’t even have a way to be resolved, there’s no reason this should ever have been a story unless it was one about what a moron the complainer was.
If someone’s leaving their towels lying around, that’s a specific complaint that can be covered and addressed. And maybe there’s even a harm we can address.
That’s not what’s going on here. Again, Silva and Putz and whoever else might have been in on this were anti-Ichiro for no reported reason, their complaints unaddressable. And yet the stories written weren’t “Carlos Silva is a jerk” but “Ichiro selfish”.
And we still don’t have an answer to the question of what Ichiro is supposed to do to heal a rift that may not exist now and which he never created.
I cannot wait for the season to start in the hopes that we can get past this.
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54 Responses to “Ichiro returns to fetid odor of Silva suggestions”
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While I agree with you that the story has garnered far more attention than it deserves I also think that given all the criticism leveled at Ichiro by former and current teammates it is only fair to give him a chance to respond. Now, Baker presses him harder than he should have but the thing I regret the most is that this interview happened now and not a year ago when the beast first reared its head.
Really, Ichiro’s response sums up what virtually everyone with a head on their shoulders had been thinking; they are MLB payers, they are professionals, they are all there because they play the game at the highest level each in their own ways, and that leadership is not an assumed role or an appointed role (certainly not by the media).
I really hope this is the death rattle of that particular storyline, and am encouraged by what Drayer reported about Griffey sticking up for ichiro in a passive way.
Geoff Baker is bad for clubhouse chemistry.
Good god this is stupid. Arrghhhh!
Here, I’ll save the mods some trouble with my next comment regarding Baker:
[no]
The Griffey-having-Ichiro’s-back thing is interesting. I really expected something about it on the front page here.
It’s all a bunch of BS…who is the real villain?
Would you rather have:
A) a player that is valuable to the team on the field and that is aloof to his teammates
OR
B) a player that is a detriment to the team on the field and threatens to beat up players and doesn’t even watch his team when he isn’t pitching
I really liked Drayers story on that event. It gives a nice counter point to Bakers. No person is going to get everything, and everyone will notice different things or assign greater importance to them; so it’s nice having the same conference reported from two different opinions like that.
I particularly liked Ichiros comments though which basically sums up what I think about leadership. A leader leads by example & he shouldn’t have to be the team “mom”. Obviously though that’s a perfect world where everyone is a profesional like Ichiro; in the real world we have pitchers not watching the game and complaining about others being selfish. I guess that’s why teams have a Manager.
And people wonder why some players dislike talking to the press.
When ever I hear criticism of players like Bedard, Bonds, and the greatest of them all Steve Carleton, that won’t talk to the assholes that dog the team, I wonder if the critics read some of the crap the press puts out.
I think you hit a home run with this one DMZ. I hope Geoff reads your post.
Excellent post
I actually find it interesting that Ichiro didn’t know about Riggleman’s counter-point interview and didn’t seem to know about JJ Putz’s comments either. Japanese media is just as invasive as the American media is, sometimes worse in the yellow journalism department. Nobody over there asked him about it?
Nice post DMZ. Lets win some games so we don’t have to talk about this anymore.
Turning dross into gold is one of those alchemical secrets possessed by credentialed sports journalists and there is little question that clubhouse access gives you access to plenty of dross.
Truly a bonanza of Ichiro-ness in that article.
My favorite part is that Ichiro clearly feels the same way most of us do about this whole thing. Rather than giving Baker what he wants by calling out the individuals who were talking about him, he instead puts Baker on the spot and forces him to offer some justification for why any of this matters. In doing so, he broadens the perspective and limits Baker’s ability to define the story: Rather than this just being about Ichiro’s behavior, it’s now about the people trying to push this story in the first place.
How many professional athletes would respond like that?
Yep.
I have all these sticks, and no dead horse…
I also like Ichiro’s anti-Armstrong sentiment, “And something I’d felt, this thought of mine, became even stronger after playing with this Japanese WBC team, is that to have a leader — who is a leader? — that’s not important.” I love it!
the Drayer blog entry referenced above
“This is so silly that I hate to be wasting time with this kind of thing,” he added. “I’m surprised at this. I’m surprised.”
What Ichiro said….
I think even Beltre said at the beginning of Spring Training that the press was making too much of a big thing about this but that was kinda glossed over because “it was a big issue last year and it has to be addressed.”
I really like Shannon Drayer’s angle on Ichiro’s return. Gives you perspective on who was focusing on what.
Baker’s take: “Griffey kept repeating: “That’s last year” as the questions were being asked. I couldn’t make out all he was saying, but he was clearly trying to deflect some of the questioning towards more positive topics
Shannon’s take: “What is he trying to get too? I swear to God! That was last year, come on!” Junior said quietly of the line of questioning.
If anything, this is a good example in the advent of newspapers shutting down why it’s good to have multiple news outlets.
On Shannon’s side, you could tell that Griffey was about as aggravated by this story as we are. Couldn’t tell that in Baker’s article.
But ultimately, yea, time to move on.
Can it be that finding controversy where nobody else finds it due to the fact that you have access that others do not could give you a self-serving reason to keep the controversy swirling to justify your own job?
While maybe Baker didn’t start this, it sure seems he is milking it all he can. I agree with Joe C…Baker is creating the clubhouse controversy now!
Oh boy. Tune into Baker Live at the moment for more wacky fun!
it’s always interesting to read different write-ups of the same thing — Kirby Arnold and Larue, for example.
Arnold also has a blog take on Ichiro and “clubhouse chemistry”
I also like the quote from Griffey in Larue’s article…
I’m so ready for this imagined controversy to be over. At the same time, it’s very nice to have so many angles to read in regards to Mariners coverage. We’re pretty lucky. Just can’t wait for that coverage to be of something relevant.
Oh, and I forgot this gem:
re a leader having to be a “team mom”…
I always thought teams had coaches, and they were tasked with things like suggesting to a player that it may be time to take some infield rather than eat cheetos. Maybe the coaches don’t do anything when they are off the field?
Some leaders lead by example. Ichiro and Edgar (Raul was mentioned in another article) are two that I would of that way. Some lead more directly, like Buhner, and it would seem, Sweeney. But that is because Buhner’s personality is very different from Ichiro or Edgar. Expecting Ichiro to be like Buhner is just silly.
Pure gold. Of course, at least one of those guys is still there. Griffey may or may not know it.
…Priceless.
I think Baker did float a suggestion to solve the problem — let clubhouse salves Griffey and Sweeney secrete leadership from their pores, the pleasant scent of which will overcome any lingering bitterness.
Not to mention Silva’s “fetid odors”.
I think Ichiro does his best to tune out the Japanese press entirely — he certainly limits their access to him, and I expect he tries not to read or listen to what they’re saying about him back in Japan. He’s generally been more tolerant of the US press, but Baker’s obsessive drift into the same territory is starting to make the US contingent look interchangeable with the Japanese one, and if it continues I wouldn’t blame Ichiro if he vastly curtails his interaction with them as well.
I totally get that the press shouldn’t be obsequious toadies of professional athletes: they’re supposed to be reporters first, and fans second. When hard questions are warranted, hard questions should be asked. But there doesn’t seem to be much of a story here — none of the other reporters seem to share Baker’s compulsion — and what there is seems badly covered (dubious anonymous “sources” countered by outright, on-the-record denials from people like Riggleman).
I hate this topic, and I can’t wait for the season to start.
I love this site and appreciate your thoughts. However, folks need stuff to write about. We ‘peeped’ this story of clubhouse collapse like one might compulsively stare at a car accident. Additionally, journalists need stuff to write about. The fact that it is still going on, still being commented on here and elsewhere means that it’s proved to be a story with ‘legs’ and a great number of angles by which to cover it.
Instead of it dying on the vine, we are questioning the validity of the sources, the premises, etc. This is sorta’ like the ‘multiplier effect’ in economics. It’s spawned far more than the initial story likely warranted.
Chuck Klosterman made a great point that is applicable here. If college football actually sorted out the bcs mess it might prove detrimental to the sport. Basically, one could argue that it’s in the best interest of the sport to foster controversy and not let this stuff get answered so cut and dry, as not doing so means that fans and blowhards of all walks remain engaged and enraged. The rivalries mean more…
So, yeah this story is/was meaningless, yet we still keep talking about it.
and …. Jimmy Caple
FSN was harping on chemistry in their Mariner weekly show the other night. I was sort of hoping that they would find something else to talk about, but maybe the easy topics are what they do best.
Stone defending Baker’s line of questioning.
and
Maybe because the news was possibly blown out of proportion and there is a sense that Baker is pushing his own agenda. Also that Baker could have done more to address what actually was the problem rather than turning into reporting on high school clics.
from Caple’s article:
Yes, that is probably what would make you pitch better, Jarrod.
Love the quote from Griffey in Caple’s article.
And, truly, that’s the sort of thing that would help “chemistry.” Treat him like one of the guys, treat him as a valued contributor to the team.
I feel like Stone’s missing the point a little. It’s about the origin and continued nursing of the story itself, rather than offering the victim a chance to respond.
I don’t think having Griffey around will make Jarrod Washburn any less unpleasant to talk too.
All I know is, if I was a professional athlete, I would go out of my way to set up fake conflicts with various teammates, in an effort to get them discussed in the media. If I was on the Mariners, I would secretly arrange for Ichiro to call me a asshole and physically attack me while I was being interviewed by some reporter, and have to be held back by teammates. Large kangaroo-court penalties would apply to teammates who broke character or giggled or anything.
Then I’d arrange for a reporter to walk in on us kissing — or WHERE they? Keep them confused off-guard at all times.
I would also before games deliver long, rambling statements about what despicable human beings today’s opponents were, and how their manager should be locked up, and how I was going to do my level best to permanently injure as many of them as I could, but I might be too drunk to do any real damage.
It’d certainly break up the “we’re going to go out there and play hard and try our best to score more runs than them”.
But then I’m weird.
If this story had been about Bedard, it would have been over with one syllable and a shrug.
Now that Ichiro has had his chance to respond, is the issue now a dead one?
I was actually curious what Ichiro had to say. Regardless of the reasons, people did finally directly name him in complaints in the open. So yeah, even though he handled it professionally and I think it should be put to bed now that everyone has had their say.. I thought it was OK to bring up.
Imagine if it hadn’t been brought up. Wouldn’t that seem a little odd? I think Baker was just doing his job here.
But then I never really understood the big issue with reporting the story. I don’t agree with them at all, but it was sorta interesting to learn that there were some players on the team stupid enough to think Ichiro was/is a problem.
Which is sort of ironic, since I hate all the people who slow down traffic to stare at an accident… and I guess I was/am doing the internet version of that.
I agree that the coverage has been overblown and that the media overblows the importance given to chemistry, in the sense of chemistry directly leading to wins and losses.
But chemistry can still be important indirectly, and for that reason it should be covered.
Specifically, if there are teammates who are xenophobic, threatening violence, or just plain unfriendly to another teammate — Ichiro in particular — then that is important and it is news. What if Ichiro finally gets fed up with those teammates and decides he wants to jump ship for a clubhouse where he’s not hassled? That’s where clubhouse chemistry becomes important. Chemistry doesn’t cause Ichiro to get more hits nor did it cause Putz’s inconsistency last year. But chemistry sure could have an impact on the roster, if Ichiro’s teammates are sniping at him and cause him to want to leave.
Jeff Kent hated Barry Bonds. Knowing that has not helped me understand a thing.
I certainly hope so. If Baker writes about it again this year, it needs to be clear, specific, and with potential remedies. Not this vague, “people don’t like Ichiro” crap. It comes across as lazy reporting trying to drum up artifical noise/news.
And if that happens, I hope Baker focuses on the lack of professionalism and possible racism of those teammates instead of blaming Ichiro for other people’s issues.
Steve T – I definitely think you should become a professional athlete.
It’s never too late to pursue your dreams.
I’m going to forward this idea to my cousin to see if this would work ok in High A or Double AA.
Too busy attacking each other rather than attacking the problem…
Hopefully this is all behind us and we all unite together like a team should know you know but knowing is only half the battle.
It is now the featured story over at The World Wide Leader’s MLB page.
“I would also before games deliver long, rambling statements about what despicable human beings today’s opponents were”
Doesn’t Ichiro actually do this at every All-Star game, with many swears to boot?
Ichiro really needs to be more of a guy’s guy. That will make him more of a leader, as Caple says:
Ichiro is not the sort to sit around stuffing his face in the team dining room and competing to see who can break wind most often during the final half of “Happy Gilmore.”
A few more wedgies and clubhouse pranks by Ichiro should take his leadership level off da charts and really boost chemistry!
Derek, you’re giving Baker too much credit. His post smacks largely of having not much to write about at this stage of spring training.
While I certainly haven’t followed Baker’s reporting on this pseudo-controversy word for word, is it really fair to characterize his stories as “Ichiro is selfish”? Wouldn’t “Anonymous: Ichiro is selfish” be more accurate?
I’m not saying this garbage is newsworthy (it’s not) or that Baker isn’t stirring the pot (he is). It’s just his defense to this kind of sentiment is going to be a more self-aggrandizing version of “I’m just a simple stenographer. People say stuff to me and I write it down.” That’s lazy journalism, but it’s not the same as editorializing.
It’s not really a choice between “Silva’s a moron,” and “Ichiro’s selfish,” as neither op-ed would really be within Baker’s purview. I guarantee if some anonymous source told him “Silva’s a moron,” he’d print it.
I think the real analogy is:
* Clubhouse chemistry stories always get a lot of hype, which sells newspapers
* Therefore, clubhouse chemistry stories must be reported
* Therefore, reporters must come up with excuses to continue clubhouse chemistry stories as often as possible
As Dave and Derek and others have emphasized throughout, bad teams lose games and good teams win games. Winning makes it seem that the clubhouse has chemistry and losing makes it seem that the clubhouse does not have chemistry. In baseball history, however, there are numerous examples of players who hated one another and nevertheless played well together. An outfielder throws the ball to the cutoff man he hates as long as he’s in position; there is no opportunity for something like the alleged freezeout of Isiah Thomas at an NBA All-Star Game one year.
If I were putting together a baseball club, I would indeed look for a personality type, and that would the type who understand that the kind of preparation and professionalism Ichiro talks about is what is needed to make a club win. They are innumerable people on this planet who know how to have a good time at work. There are only a few hundred people who know how to play baseball at a major league level (and the WBC showed that they are not all in the major leagues). Winning baseball clubs are not based on the number of good time Charlies but the number of good hitters, pitchers and fielders. If the 2008 Mariners had all gotten along, they’d have lost exactly as many games.
Last year wasn’t the first year the M’s sucked. It was however, the first year they sucked with Baker covering them. Frankly, whatever else he does worth praising as a reporter, Baker is the clubhouse cancer in this story.
Or, as Ichiro said in response to the first clubhouse chemistry quesiton, “I think you are more of an expert, next question.”
Griffey needs to be limited to sharing DH with Sweeney. Over the long haul Sweeney will contribute more. Chavez and Balentien own left field.