Lots Of News: Morrow, Clement, Walker
Baker fills us in on a busy day in camp.
First off, Brandon Morrow has decided that he doesn’t want to be a starter anymore. He’s going back to the bullpen, full time, and presumably for the rest of his career. Baker has some quotes (including audio), where Morrow explains that he feels more comfortable in relief, especially with his diabetes. This is, obviously, bad news for the M’s. Morrow converting back to starting was the best case scenario for this franchise, and that hope is now out the window. This is yet another byproduct of the horrible way Morrow has been handled since being drafted. The Bavasi regime screwed the pooch on this situation from day one, and it continues to hurt the organization even after he’s gone.
This, obviously, effects how the pitching staff will shake out. With Morrow headed back to the bullpen, Tyler Walker was released, as the team had an abundance of right-handed relievers. Ryan Rowland-Smith will stay in the rotation. The team is now running low on right-handed starting pitching depth – of the top seven or eight starters in the organization, only Felix and Silva are right-handed. Look for the M’s to try to address that weakness via trade.
Who would they trade? That brings us to the second piece of news – Jeff Clement has been optioned to Triple-A, where he’ll begin the season. Rob Johnson has presumably made the team as the back-up to Kenji Johjima. Clement will continue to work on improving his defense behind the plate in Tacoma. As we talked about the other day, this is the option that I hoped the team would ignore. Clement’s been working on his catching for years. He’s already 25 and has had two surgeries on his knees. That he’s been judged as an inadequate defensive catcher at this point should be a hint that it’s just not going to work. If another organization still views him as a catching prospect, they should explore dealing him, because he’s just not going to ever live up to the defensive standards that this organization has for it’s catchers. Especially with how high they are on Adam Moore, 2009 stood as Clement’s last shot to prove he was a viable option going forward behind the plate for the M’s. That he’s not going to get a shot to do it at the major league level speaks volumes about his long term future here. Unless he’s willing to move off catcher, he doesn’t have one in Seattle. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded before opening day.
All in all, a day of news that can only be construed as not good. Morrow’s move to the bullpen downgrades the organization’s potential, and Clement’s days as a catching prospect in this organization are basically over. We’d been the leaders of the “this team isn’t that bad” bandwagon for the last few months, and I’d projected the team for about 79 wins. With these moves, that’s probably more like 77 now. This is a step back for the team both in ’09 and beyond.
Tough day.
Edit: And the news just keeps rolling in. Divish says the M’s just bought Chris Burke from the Padres for cash considerations. Burke’s a second baseman by trade, but has experience at pretty much every position and is well qualified for a utility infield position, and as I wrote over at FanGraphs, he’s a great rebound candidate. He was in camp with the Padres on a minor league deal, so he can be assigned to Tacoma to start the season. I’d call this move insurance in case the team trades Betancourt – they’d need a new utility guy if Cedeno became the starting SS, and Burke is a better player than Corona right now.
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I cried today.
………..sucks!~
Well, at least Morrow’s stuff is among the league’s best out of the pen. That’s about the only ray of sunshine I can see here. Sadly, Morrow has as hard a time hitting the zone with his FB as the batters have hitting it.
Josh Fields raises his hand in the back of the room. Looks like he has a question.
As much as the M’s organization and most of us would have preferred Morrow as a starter, I can fully appreciate how his diabetes impacted his decision. Trying to regulate your blood glucoses while starting would have been a major challenge. Although Lowe has an apparently different type of diabetes (type 2, which by the way is super unusual at his age and habitus), I would not be surprised if this does not factor into his performance.
Yes, it is bad news but not all is lost. It is better to get some certainty now to be able to move forward.
Morrow has the potential to be as good as Putz or Papplebon. With Fields and his potential in the fold plus the upgraded defense, we could be looking at an improved bullpen.
So how long will it take for Aumont to contribute? What was his inning load last year?
Clement is our insurance policy for Junior flaming out or Jojima not regainig his form. I hope we don’t trade him too soon. A lot could still happen.
A lot could still happen. I am glad the team is basing its decisions based on what they are seeing on the field. Let’s hope that continues.
Nice post Dave.
“If another organization still views him as a catching prospect, they should explore dealing him, because he’s just not going to ever live up to the defensive standards that this organization has for it’s catchers.”
-hmm… That raises quite a few questions in my little brain. Is there an organization that views Clement as a catcher? If no, whats he worth? Does he have more value to the M’s as a 1B/DH?
But problems are also a shorter word for opportunity.
Two quick questions, Dave: 1.) Is it fair to call Clement’s “catching prospect days” over if he’s starting out the year in AAA? I mean, there’s nothing to say Rob Johnson won’t bash his thumb or hurt his arm- these things happen, and often in the first week. Clement could still benefit from a necessary roster re-shuffle. And we all know he’s gonna murder AAA pitching however long he’s there.
2.) Morrow’s situation…I can’t sugarcoat it. It’s a a step back. But did Morrow specifically say “No starting for me, ever again.”?
I am not a huge proponent of trading Clement- I like left-handed power as much as anyone, and think his bat’s gonna play somewhere- but what could he feasibly be dealt for?
I bet a decent piece could be had, like a right-handed starting pitcher prospect that hasn’t broken through the big-league ceiling due to numbers, yet.
“Trying to regulate your blood glucoses while starting would have been a major challenge.”
Quite a few pro athletes have been able to deal with it. Sounds to me like its the path of least resistance.
He kind of did yes.
Looks like Jack Z’s true colors are showing, this makes signing Fields look like a huge mistake. You already have Kelly, now Fields and Morrow. The bullpen should be the final step to winning a championship. The M’s have a terrible offense and below average starting rotation. Also, keeping Sweeney over Shelton, one has more upside and is on the right side of 30, hopefully now everyone sees who Jack Z really is, a great talent evaluator, but NOT a GM.
Give me a break.
Lets not throw Jack Z into the landfill just yet.
GMZ has made some great moves to date and we don’t know the entire story on Morrow just yet. It is way to early to call him a great GM or a horrible GM. Zduriencik is doing just fine. Morrow pleaded to close, not the other way around.
Do not judge GMZ just yet, it hasn’t been long enough.
The Morrow news and watching Washburn get knocked around right now fills me with the opposite of optimism. However, ebcmc, Jack Z has this organization moving in the right direction for the first time in a long time. Give him and us a break.
Come on Dave, explain. Fields mistake, giving up on Morrow too early, mistake, not trading Clement when he had value or giving him one more shot, mistake, Sweeney over Shelton, mistake. I like the Putz trade, but what else has he done? The Heilman trade wss a wash and in hindsight looks bad to our shortage of right handed pitchers. Part of being a GM is looking at future moves, if he saw the possibility of Morrow as a closer Heilman should not have been traded and Fields shoud not have been signed. Not trying to be condesending, just not on board with Jack Z and I have given several examples.
Right let’s fire Zduriencik and start over.
You entitled to your opinion, ebmc, as petty and ignorant and ridiculous as it may be.
Many of the great moves you guys refer to are risk/reward moves, lik Aardsma. Delgado, Lugo,Branyan, Shelton, etc. In the grand scheme of things these moves do nothing, would I prefer that he made the moves, yes, but they aren’t going to make this team a winner in the future. In reality the only move to help the future of this franchise is the Putz trade, and many still think if he waited that he could have gotten more. Is there something I am missing?
Even if Z COULD predict the future, loading up on strong arms in the pen is not a bad idea… It’s hard to say Fields is a mistake already, especially since Bavasi was the one who drafted him. I’ll let Dave actually answer you since you addressed him, but letting this move say that Z is a bad GM is ridiculous.
ebcmc
Last time I checked GMZ isn’t a psychic.
I said nothing about firing Jack, all I’m saying is that maybe we jumoed on the band wagon a little too early. He may be the perfect stop gap GM, because he can re-load the farm with this year and next year’s draft. My point is that I do not see him as a long term GM. You guys don’t need to attack my comments, I am using reason and being polite, I see no reason you shouldn’t act in the same manner.
The light at the end of the tunnel still might be a speeding locomotive.
That extra pick Fields could have provided looks real good right now. Why not just send Morrow down and give him a go as a starter at Tacoma? In the long run It does the Mariners no harm. They have no shot at making a run this year. If it fails, There is no loss. If it succeeds, we win.
I feel The Mariners are still just trying to sell tickets. Not do everything to make a winner. All these moves do not make sence for a man like Z. They feel more like directives from Linclon and Armstrong. We get $%%*#@ again…
You’re not going to give him credit for adding to great defensive outfielders in a park where outfield defense is crucial?
Also it sounds like Morrow gave up on Morrow…
Not to mention the fact that according to reports Morrow is the one who is adamantly saying his career path should be a closer and he wants to close. Sure Z or Wakamatsu can override him, but he’s already closed and if he feels comfortable in that role and not as a closer… then…
Shouldn’t the idea of Morrow being a closer crossed his mind, and if there was a 10-20% of that happening he should not have signed Fields, bottomo line.
To the extent Morrow and Fields are wasted high draft picks, those go onto the Bavasi ledger, not Zduriencik’s.
Morrow may be willing to try starting again when his health — his arm and his blood routine — are more stable. He’s still young, and has excellent raw stuff. Unless he becomes a closer (and perhaps even then), he’s going to be wasting his potential as a reliever, and plenty of people will be telling him so.
And I don’t have to tell anybody this is a terrible time to try to get maximum value in any trade.
He has 55 innings of professional experience in his life, at single A. One amazing innning in the WBC doesn’t change that. You’re not seeing him this year. It’s possible you might see him late in 2010 — assuming he doesn’t have any setbacks (which is probably an unreasonable assumption). For comparison sake, Felix was younger but at roughly the same point at the end of 2003 that Aumont was last winter, and he made it to the majors half-way through 2005… and that was incredibly quick for a non-college pitcher. I personally don’t expect to see Aumont before 2011.
I’m optimistic that Z could get good value for Clement. I wish he would have worked out here, but if not now, its probably never.
I agree with Jack N., all these moves seem focused on winning this year, when the focus needs to be on the future. It does sound like Morrow was starting to give up, but that is not entirely his decision, why not gave him a few months in Tacoma and see how things progress. His opportunity to be a starter seemed way too short. These tough decisions are what a GM is pad to do and if Morrow as a starter is better in the long run, then Jack Z should have told Morrow that and said emphatically that it is too soon to give up on you as a starter.
“if there was a 10-20% of that happening he should not have signed Fields, bottomo line.”
Whats the issue? To many pitchers for the bullpen?
Was Z supposed to pull his offer to Fields of the table?
Yeah… and making decisions based on things that have a 10-20% chance of happening is a great job of GMing.
Yes, Fields is Bavasi’s wasted pick, but it could have given Jack Z a chance to prove his worth through the draft. Most of us were upset when they Jack Z signed Fields, but now in hingsight it looks exponentially worse.
Can we all just agree that this game is pretty terrible right now?
ebmc, is there some problem with having two talented young pitchers in the back of the bullpen. how can you not see that as a strength? I get that we could have used that draft pick somewhere else but the debate on fields shouldnt have anything to do with the debate of morrow.
Fields should have never been signed above slot, he was not Z’s pick so YES he could have taken the offer from the table.
Um, dude, the M’s still have Shelton. It’s not like they released him. If Sweeney gets hurt or retires, if Griffey gets hurt, whatever, they can have Shelton back in a day.
Oops, did I attack your comment? Sorry.
ebcmc, the draft is pretty shallow after strasburg. I didn’t mind Fields being signed, although it was a surprise. Also at he time of the signing Morrow was penciled into the rotation and we had no long-term closer prospects.
I still don’t get how that one move combined with Morrow’s sudden change of mind can prove that Z can’t GM. He hasn’t even had one draft yet and is putting together an organization in shambles from Bavasi… with no wiggle room in salary. Your claims are ridiculous by pointing at this move to be the straw that breaks the camels back… ridiculous
Could it get worse? Washburn is doing his Silva impersonation on FSN.
ebcmc
Fields was signed because GMZ believed he couldn’t get a better talent with that pick in the draft this year.
That is a bad move because? Yes Fields is pretty much a extra part at this point but that is Bavasi’s fault for drafting him in the first place. I hated the choice to draft him as much as everyone, but letting Fields go for a lesser talent is just stupid.
Remember this as well. We don’t have to keep Fields, we can trade him.
Nice Paul, condescending, check, no wonder people stay away from this site. Trying to have a good baseball debate on differing opinions, but this apparently is not the site to have a constructive conversation.
It really doesn’t seem like Morrow wants to be a starter, does it? If he thinks he’ll be a better pitcher coming out of the pen, then fine, let’s move on.
Not signing Fields would’ve cured Morrow’s diabetes? Not signing Fields would’ve caused a new right-handed starter to materialize in the clubhouse? What would not signing Fields have done beyond giving them another draft pick that might, might give them a major league player in a couple of years? How does that help them now? By your standard no living human being is qualified to be GM, because no living human can accurately predict the future.
This isn’t an exact science. You make the best bets you can based on what you know. They don’t have to all work out for them to be good bets; and a bad bet that happens to work out doesn’t make it not be a bad bet. Zduriencik’s bets have been good ones (unlike, for example, Bavasi’s bet that the 2007 team was one piece away from contending). Given what he was handed, Zduriencik has done an excellent job of rebuilding the team in just one off-season. The team is already much better than I expected it to be in 2009 (and that was when I was expecting them to retain a $100M+ payroll). I expect things to be even better in 2010. Not everything Zduriencik does is going to work out — no GM has everything work out — but his decisions so far have shown that he is capable of smart and sensible player evaluation, and he has a long-term plan that accurately reflects both the team’s current situation and market realities. In my mind that certainly qualifies him to be a GM.
That Morrow has unexpectedly (and somewhat arbitrarily) decided to go back to the bullpen, and Clement hasn’t progressed as much as hoped (or expected, given his history) hardly changes that.
There are plenty of upside picks available at the Fields slot, also way too early to judge the talent pool. In past drafts many players come onto the scene afte big years, players that were though to be later round picks. Bottom line, bad sign and there is no justification and now it only looks worse.
He hasn’t pitched yet and it’s a bad sign… So you can predict the future that the pick in this draft would definitely be better than Fields? You should take that talent to a site that people don’t ‘avoid’. You might make a nice living with Steve Phillips as your color commentator on espn.
It is not Zduriencik’s fault that Morrow has decided to pitch in relief. I suppose they could have strong armed him and bullied him, but that would not have lead to good results. The current M’s regime wanted Morrow to start. Blame Grover and Bavasi for letting Morrow start his career as a reliever in 2007.
Also, Fields was signed for what, 250,000 above slot? I doubt that the pick they would have received from Fields not signing would have been any less than the 1.75 they spent on Fields.
And Junior drives in Ichiro. The romantic in me believes we’ll see this repeated over and over again during the season.
Thats the crap that chases off people…..you may not agree with his point of view, but he gave some reasons why he feels that way, and maybe you should respect that a little bit.
I’m torn here. I felt Morrow and Clement were both terrible picks. I was blown away the M’s would draft a catcher with the 3rd pick in the draft, especially one I thought was Todd Hundley in training. As to Morrow, its not like the diabetes just now became an issue. His stuff also kinda limits what he’s going to do.
With regards to Z…..Bavasi just kinda filled up the litter box, Z is kinda cleaning up after him….and people have to temper their expectations. I really like the moves he has made, with the exception of Sweeney over Shelton, and signing Fields (which to me is mind boggling).
Dave is probably right in his 77-79 win assessment, but I’m praying for 82-84 wins…..hopefully a strong rebound and a winning season will bring the lost fans back, and show ownership this is the right way to build a team.
Is that what you call posting the same text a bunch of times in multiple entries?
And then when I point out that one of your often repeated lines is incorrect, I am called “condescending”?
I predict you will not find many friendly responses to your messages, at that rate.
Maybe Morrow just doesn’t want to be a starter in Tacoma.
If this is truly going to be the outcome, his selection in the draft is tough to swallow.
Good lord, get off the guys jock fellas! I really think you are twisting what he is trying to say, and just making things worse by jumping all over him. Ok, we get it, you guys disagree with him, you think his comments are way off base….but its not like he’s just saying “Z sucks” and not elaborating.
Personally, I think Fields was a terrible pick to begin with. In my opinion, relievers are guys who can’t be starters for one reason or another (stuff, stamina, control, injury, etc)….to me, drafting a guy who is already a reliever is a wasted pick because you’re already limiting yourself. On top of that, I “think” we’ve had tyhe conversation a few times here about relievers being generally overvalued, and easy to come by.
So, wasting the pick on Fields was bad enough, but considering the glaring holes in this organization, I think that extra pick could have been much better spent this upcoming draft on a starting pitcher, or a position player.
Can the metacommentary and sniping at each other, guys, or comments start to go byebye.
I was just going to say that, having waded through the thread myself. This is not the end of the world, or the Mariners.
I’d like to get some more input on Clement…..
I think he is done a a catcher in Seattle, and if we see it, and the FO sees it, what team is dumb enough to think he may still be the answering behind the dish?
If he has no value as a catcher, then what kind of value does he have (My thinking is not much)? Is he strictly DH material? Can he play 1B?
I’d like to toss around the idea of what is the best case/worst case scenario for Clement.
Also, with the Burke deal, what are the chances of Betancourt or Lopez being dealt?
I also don’t think that the lack of right-handed starters is really that big of a deal. Everything else being equal, the M’s ought to be loading up on left-handed flyball pitchers because of the ay the park’s set up. Frankly, worrying about needing to pick up another RH starter is exactly the kind of thing a rebuilding type team ought *not* to be doing. This year is the year to put together a hypothesis, test it with as many guys as you can, and if it fails… this wasn’t a season you were going to do things with in the first place.
That being said, I have to agree that sending Clement down to “learn to catch” is just not something I can see. Learn to play first, sure, or even third or right field (what the heck, catchers have big arms; why not see if he has the first step or the running speed to be a utility type?), but I agree that at this point he probably knows how to catch as well as he ever will.
It’s a tough situation though. If the team doesn’t like Kenji’s pitch-calling… well, you really can’t have two poor defensive catchers on the roster, can you? In the days of the 10-man pitching staffs you could have carried 3 guys, use Clement as a pinch-hitter, play him a game or two a week until you feel confident in his catching. But those days are gone.
Your 2009 Seattle Mariners: Even the top prospects have major flaws.
In past drafts many players come onto the scene after big years, players that were though to be later round picks.
There is always some reason those players are later round picks; do we really want a GM that’s going to sign projected late round picks at the top of the draft? It’s not an ideal situation but being overstocked with potential talent at one position, especially a position many teams overvalue, can be beneficial.
ebcmc – first of all, you’re getting bent out of shape and writing off a GM before the season even begins over the signing of a reliever and the use of a couple minor role players. If he traded 5 of our best players for a single, injury prone pitcher, then yeah, blast him. But while the news about Morrow sucks, the Fields signing is still not that big of a deal. Morrow wanting to stay in the pen is totally out of left field – he’s even said all along that he wants to be a starter, and it was 100% clear that was the role the organization viewed him in. So at the time, signing Fields kind of made sense. Yeah, they could have taken their chances with the pick this year, but that’s a crap shoot. You say it’s way to early to judge the talent pool, but you have to understand that works both ways. Point is, none of this is news that we like, but it’s not Z’s fault. He made a decent decision at the time, and it’s way to early to condemn or second-guess him.
Secondly, having depth in the bullpen is never a bad thing. We just traded Putz and Green, and we had a few question marks. It feels like a waste of Morrow’s talent, and it leaves us short a quality right-handed starter, but we also have the pieces available to address that.
Thirdly, I don’t know how on earth all of these low risk/high reward pickups and minor league contracts can be viewed as a “win now” approach. Z’s only big trade was essentially some relievers and spare parts, and through it he addressed a major weakness and drastically upgraded the outfield defense. But I still don’t see how anything he’s done can be viewed as anything but a “win as much as we can while we wait for horrible contracts to come of the books and build for the future” approach.
Lastly, this is actually a great site to have a constructive baseball conversation. It just usually helps when you don’t come out of the gate with a premature, adamant opinion, and then get upset when people question it.
I blame Jerome Holtzman.
w/r/t Clement and another org: it’s not so out of the question. The M’s seem to want defense first in their catching prospects, and if you were a team that looked at Clement and thought the bat was enough to carry the defense, you might see a bargain here. Or you look at him as a conversion project for first. Either way, I don’t know how much of a premium you pay for the possibility he could be a backstop.
This sucks, 65-win team this year, write it down.
These moves just make it official that Bavasi left us with nothing, zero.
It will take YEARS for this team to recover from his 5 years of destruction.
Betancourt + Clement for = ???
Really great points, and exactly what I was thinking. I keep thinking of Swisher, as he fills a real need for us…..but I don’t see that happening.
I don’t see anything with Clement that is all that intriguing if he isnt catching, and as he isn’t going to be catching…..to me he’s really nothing more than a decent bat without a position,something thats a dime a dozen…..and until he shows (and has the chance to) the ability to really hit at the MLB level, he has little value.
Maybe I’m just dumb, but i don’t see what’s so godawful about Lowe-Fields-Morrow 7-8-9. Yes, i understand you don’t build from the bullpen up, but it’s not the end of the world. If anything Fields+Betancourt+Clement could bring in a pretty awesome shortstop, if the prospect is there.
And I don’t have near the statistic smarts as some of you guys, but is a shortage of right handers that bad?? If it is. i think we have the pieces to trade with all the risk/reward guys we got this offseason.
Here’s what’s so awful about it, this definitely means Washburn and Silva are pitching twice every 5 games and you would have to think Bedard inedibly will either get hurt or traded before the season is over.
So really, this team realistically as is has only 2 quality major-league starters for 2010 and beyond in Felix Hernandez and Ryan Rowland-Smith, and RR-Smith is probably nothing more than a #3 or #4.
So Morrow leaving the rotation, it’s terrible news, because quite frankly, who’s left?
Olson is probably nothing more than a #4 or #5 at this point and Aumont is probably 2 years away.
This team clearly should’ve picked Lincecum at #5 in 2006, period.
At the end of day, starters will always be more valuable in baseball than relievers because the best ones give you many more quality innings over 162 than the best relievers will ever give you.
Once again, let me reiterate, Bavasi practically left us with NOTHING, ZERO.
So don’t give Chuck Armstrong huge wads of your money until the talent on this team really starts to turn a corner in the right direction.
How many years will it be before people finally shut up about Lincecum?
It’s results-based analysis of the worst kind. Stop it.
I’m pretty sure most wanted Lincecum at the time so its not really results-based analysis. Of course, bitching about what might have been isn’t much better either.
I’d like Fields to have a great year in the minors and become serious trade bait to a team looking for a closer. Closers can be worth a lot more than their actual value in trade because teams put a premium on guys who allegedly can pitch the ninth.
I’m sorry about Morrow not becoming a starter, but at least we’re unlikely to see Batista out there in high leverage situations. It may be a poor use in hindsight of a high draft pick, but the guy absolutely can do the job so I will just move on.
Clement: far more of a problem. One less lefty on the bench, and Rob Johnson is no bat. He was supposed to be a star and he’ll never be one as first baseman or DH.
It seems odd that we have players who are, to varying degrees, dictating to the team how they will be used. It just feels like we aren’t getting the whole story.
I trust Baker will be all over Z and Wak this afternoon with a ton of questions.
Is Morrow’s diabetes really that bad? Does he think he can’t develop a third pitch? Does he not want to go to Tacoma to develop it? He was a starter in college, and a darn good one. What happened, besides being incredibly poorly coached over the last two years?
Does the team really think Clement will be able to catch in the majors? If not, when do they try to turn him into a 1B? If they try do think it will succeed? Clement is getting old to be a prospect. Doesn’t this move officially mean that Clement is a man without a position: not enough to glove to play catcher, not enough bat to be a true MLB 1B where you need to hit 25-30 HR a year?
The thing that burns is that we have every reason to trust Z and Wak. If they are sending Clement down to AAA and are agreeing to turn Morrow into a permanent closer, then that means they are trying to salvage the best of a couple of bad situations. In other words, we’ve just seen Bavasi’s two highest profile picks implode on the same day.
This isn’t the end of the world. But this situation with Morrow and Clement (not to mention the contracts of Silva, Washburn, and Batista) is an absolute mess. Z’s job just got a lot harder today.
I personally don’t have a problem with the Ms taking a Morrow or a Miller over a Lincecum.
Taking a reliever over a starter with the #5 pick though, that’s a different issue.
I’m surprised they would let Morrow dictate his ultimate role especially when so much value is on the line. They must have reached the conclusion that he is too frail to be a starter.
Morrow wasn’t drafted with the intent to be a reliever, though.
That his career has been horribly mishandled doesn’t make it a bad pick based on what we knew then.
Since when do workers say, I am only going to bag the groceries. I will go out and get the carts. I do not think that what appears to be in stone is.
It’s a new day. It’s a new way.
I put my trust in Z and the future.
With Morrow becoming a permanent relief pitcher and Clement being sent down to AAA to catch we probably should think about selling this team to an ownership in Oklahoma.
…..
Too much?
This news sucks. I really had high hopes for Morrow as a starter and our rotation with him in it. HOWEVER, as someone who grew up around control freaks, I’ll say this: Quit assuming or hoping or declaring he will change his mind. He has his mind made up after what I’m sure was a long and agonizing decision making process. Declaring he will go back on that decision says you know him better than he knows himself.
Well, let’s not go off the cliff. This is a good-sized chunk of bad news, but it isn’t the end of the organization by any stretch of the imagination.
Starting pitching can be addressed in a number of ways now that we have one less potential piece, and Adam Moore isn’t such a bad backup plan as a catcher of the future.
At this point it was an epic whiff and it was from day 1 given how he has been handled (presumably developing him as a starter has never been a priority).
Good question. Are there any decent (i.e.
better than Chef Silva) RH starters available at the moment?
It’s kinda funny. Even though today is not a good day for the Mariners I really can’t all worked up over this.
Morrow becomes a reliever. We lost quite a bit of potential upside, but really, this just means that there’s more work to be done on the rotation side of things. I would imagine that we’ll be talking about heavy competition for a spot in the starting rotation next Spring.
As far as Clement being sent down I feel more sorry for him than anything. Hope we can get something worked out in the near future.
We’ve hit some setbacks, but I’m kinda surprised at the negative reaction to this news. You’d think that Bavasi was still in charge here. I think it’s a tad bit overblown.
I like Morrow ever since draft day and I haggled with a ticket scalper to get a ticket for his start and I’m glad I did…
What Morrow says now might not be what he says in the future none of us currently know why Morrow really went to the pen but today I’m a sad panda…
“(presumably developing him as a starter has never been a priority).”
It was never a priority for Grover, and not major priority for Bavasi.
And I don’t view this as a player unwilling to do something. Like Ibanez playing LF, or Ichiro preferring to play RF (and having to be convinced to play CF for 2007 and half of 2008), Morrow probably made his strong preferences known. He explained how he felt his body and mind could handle relief work versus starting. I’m certain that Zduriencik and Wakamatsu tried to convince Morrow that he would be more valued as a starter. But given all of the information that they had gathered from Morrow, the M’s braintrust probably felt that they will get more value from Morrow by making him a reliever. Forcing Morrow to be a miserable, unhappy starting pitcher who is always doubting his own health would probably not help anyone.
That’s because there’s no faith in this team (let alone Seattle sports) right now and it’s just hard to believe Armstrong when he says the team really wants to turn it around this time.
I mean, let’s put it this way with the Bavasi era. . .
A demanding owner like George Steinbrenner (in his hayday) in New York would’ve fired Bavasi after 2 years of carnage.
The Mariners let him stay around for 5 years and only fired him when it became apparent that the team would finally be bleeding red ink for the first time in 10 years.
Maybe Piniella doesn’t fit in with the prototypical new-school manager personality, but you can’t argue with the fact that this team hasn’t been close to successful in the front office or with its clubhouse accountability since he left in ’02.
And when you combine the Mariners losing lately with the P-I’s closure, the Seahawks struggles last year, the Sonics leaving for the middle of nowhere, the fact we can’t plow our own snow, the fact the state is going through some tough times budget wise, and last but not least the struggles of Husky and Cougar football in recent years, it’s pretty easy to see why people are so down about news like the situations of Morrow and Clement.
Seattle has unfortunately turned into a loser town, or at least, in some people’s minds it has, which is all the more reason why people are getting depressed over news like this that really may or may not be a big deal later on.
I’m not saying to bring back Lou, but Seattle (and its baseball team included) needs a little pick-me-up.
Yeah, that’s the cliff that I was talking about.
If anything Fields+Betancourt+Clement could bring in a pretty awesome shortstop
Fields can’t be traded until a year after he signed, so next spring. May Betancourt be long gone before then, and probably Clement too.
Looking on the bright side, at least the Sounders have started their season 2-0…
That would be the branch on the side of the cliff that the guy grabs on his way over the edge.
Man, wasn’t it like a week ago that published reports quoted Bill James as lauding Morrow’s talent and huge potential as reason enough for the Mariners to never regret drafting him, and specifically in the context of having passed on a certain diminutive local boy power pitcher who shall not be named? Egg meet face for ol’ Bill, if Morrow is a career reliever, IMO.
Morrow can come in and blow guys away, and I will love every second of it, but I am a little annoyed we didn’t make a move for Edwin Jackson last year when we potentially could have, though. Clement and a throw-in or two for Jackson and a legit prospect would look pretty nice in the rearview right about now, at least to me!
Could we save the kickball references for USS Sounders FC?
Edwin Jackson isn’t good.
Call me stupid. Say I’m retard. Tell me I’m dumb. I’m still excited for another season of baseball. We suck, I’m ok with that. If we win one more game than last year then I’m happy. Our previous management left us with a clusterfuck and now I believe we are moving away from that. This off-season has been good. The Morrow issue was bound to happen. Silva and Washburn are cancer. Ichiro is the light. Griffey is the nostalgia. Just be happy we’re not the Pirates.
Last year Rob Johnson was PCL catcher of the year, and put up a .305/.363/.441 line. So while Rob does not have anywhere near the upside of Clement as a hitter, he has earned a shot as a backup and if the goal is to put the best fielding team out there, this move makes sense. Most likely Clement will have a solid season at the plate in Tacoma (e.g. .280/.380/.510), and will be available to fill in at DH or C as injuries arise.
With respect to Morrow, this is indeed a setback, but he’s still young and could change his mind.
I remember two specific red flags when Morrow was drafted:
1) He was thought to be an excellent candidate for a closer, since he didn’t really have the control of enough pitches to slide into the rotation. There was a lot of talk BACK THEN (around draft day) about making him a relief pitcher and moving him away from the rotation.
2) He really didn’t start a lot in college — when he DID start, he had a shoulder injury where he himself thought the shoulder was torn, and he missed the last part of the season. While a lot of people were enthralled with his pitching motion, I was concerned that he was already experiencing some shoulder issues that would affect his ability to handle a spot in the rotation.
I was baaaadly on the Miller bandwagon. I wanted Miller, Lincecum and then perhaps Morrow (or Kershaw). I could sorta understand why the M’s were concerned about Lincecum at the time, and I recognized Howard Lincoln’s worshipping at the altar of Selig’s Draft Slotting. But I didn’t foresee a scenario where BOTH Miller AND TL were available.
I tried to be “positive” about the pick, I really did. But I expressed my concerns at the time and I’m really, really frustrated that this is the one “Told you so!” that I get to claim.
Has anyone seen McFly???
The 2008 Pirates: 67-95
The 2008 Mariners: 61-101
I find it interesting that the Mariners’ newfound organizational strength in ace relievers is being construed by some as an indictment against the team because there is apparently some set order in which you must construct a championship team. I don’t really see a strong bullpen as being less helpful for an expected non-contender than an expected contender–runs saved are runs saved.
If anything, I see this as a chance to keep the (potentially few) leads that they do get and an improved chance at overcoming narrow deficits which a good bullpen can keep from becoming large deficits.
Not much. Both players’ value has to be pretty low. Clement hasn’t shown he can hit big-league pitching (I know, small sample sizes and all, but I think it is fair to assume that other teams will take note of this fact), hasn’t shown the chops to be even an average defender behind the plate, and now his club is sending him down to AAA. Again.
As for Betancourt, I really don’t see any team willing to give up more than a B prospect at best for the guy.
Clement and Yuni could maybe bring you a 4 or 5 starter.
The bullpen has been a problem. Consider this from 2008:
Washburn had 14 quality starts and a record of 5-14.
Feliz had 19 quality starts and a record of 9-11.
Some of the losses can be attributed to a team that had trouble scoring runs. And some of them were created by the bullpen. Remember the frustration from last season when it felt like Felix needed to throw a complete gamem shut-out just to have a chance to win a game. Consider the psychological toll that takes on players. Jay Buhner said this to Bob Finnigan of the Seattle Times in 1997:
The worst thing that can happen is for a team (or its fans) to feel like they’re doomed. To feel like no lead is safe. A mentality that says: we’re going to lose no matter how hard we try, so there’s no point in trying. That kind of cancer is inoperable. Best to just lock the clubhouse doors and burn it down with everybody inside.
Today the team fought back from a 0-7 defecit to a 10-7 lead. And then the bullpen gave up 9 runs!
Does it hurt to have Morrow in the pen? Sure. We all wanted to see him start. Does it help to have somebody out there who knows what the hell he’s doing? Yes. I think this is the kind of thing that might encourage pitchers (like Felix) to consider staying (or signing) with Seattle.
Anyways, my point is that there is some long-term good in this move, even if it was Morrow-The-Starter who was sacrificed. This is good for the sanity and morale of the team and the fans.
Does anybody doubt that Z can find a pitcher or two with the $40 million that comes off the books this year?
“Morrow wasn’t drafted with the intent to be a reliever, though.”
Thats not true. When Morrow was drafted Fontaine talked about how Morrow had the flexibility to start or pitch in relief.
http://www.seattlepi.com/baseball/273036_mdraft07.html
It’s pretty cool that you went back and found that article, cherry-picked the part that might possibly let you sneak in a zinger, but forgot to put in the very next line:
“At this point, the Mariners will use Morrow as a starter and hope to place him at Class A Inland Empire.”
In any case, the vast majority of the difference between Morrow and Lincecum is how their careers have been handled, not any inherent huge gap in talent. And guess what, we can’t go back and redo that draft anyway.
There’s no reason to believe the M’s would have treated Lincecum any differently than they did Morrow. The perceived need in the spring of 2007 was for a guy to pitch the eighth inning while Mark Lowe was injured. If we had drafted Lincecum, is there any reason to believe they wouldn’t have chosen him?
LOL @ Nye defending Mariners’ ’06 management team. Picking Morrow over Lincecum was one of the biggest epic fail moves in a long, long time. It was criticized at the time and it is criticized now. Did Bavasi just think Morrow would “get over” his diabetes or something? Terrible, terrible decision making. Just awful.
Lincecum’s stuff was and is a lot better than Morrow’s. Lincecum dropped down the draft because of ancillary issues.
I’m not sure how it could be argued that Morrow has a higher ceiling.
That said, this comment is in no way alluding to who the Ms should’ve drafted.
I’m just disappointed that the Ms chose a relief arm #5 that draft. Given the way he was handled subsequently and the fact they grabbed another reliever with their first pick last season, I think it’s fair to entertain the notion that they weren’t sold on Morrow being a starter when they drafted him and they were comfortable with the notion that he would end up being a bullpen arm.
Clement will have a solid season at the plate in Tacoma (e.g. .280/.380/.510)
Tug Hulett, age 25, 2008, Tacoma: .298/.518/.380
I think “solid season” does not mean what you think it means wen it comes to the PCL. That season you just described not only matches Tug Hulett’s (who was let go for nothing), but it wouldn’t break top 20 in SLG or OPS.
Actually, most of the hand-wringing at the time of the draft was at not getting Andrew Miller due to signability concerns, not Lincecum.
From Dave’s draft day post that year:
“With Miller and Lincoln unlikely to slide to #5, the M’s will probably be picking from the Lincecum/Hochevar/Scherzer/Morrow group. They’ve been tied to Hochevar quite a bit, but no one knows how much of that is real or just a smokescreen.
While Bavasi has a history of preferring high-reward players, Bob Fontaine is running the draft, and he’s a bit more conservative by nature. Fontaine’s also a big proponant of pitcher’s body types, and Lincecum doesn’t fit the mold of what he generally prefers.”
Really, Lincecum simply wasn’t at the time some amazing talent that had clearly separated himself from the rest of the pack. That that has happened SINCE doesn’t mean that the pick, at the time, was a bad one.
Oh, Andrew Miller. How I coveted him.
“It’s pretty cool that you went back and found that article, cherry-picked the part that might possibly let you sneak in a zinger, but forgot to put in the very next line”
The fact that FO was open from the beginning at using Morrow in relief and the fact that Morrow ended up in the bullpen within a year from being drafted is a better indicator to the intent of the front office.
Sidenote: I don’t believe I’ve ever argued for Lincecum so don’t throw me in with that crowd.
Jeff,
I’m willing to concede that we have a different opinion on what “Morrow wasn’t drafted with the intent to be a reliever” means.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you think starting him for one season in A ball counts as intent. Maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote.
To me intent would not include discussing him as a reliever canidate when he was drafted and letting him become a reliever so early in his development (or lack of development).
We’ve talked to Fontaine about the Morrow situation at length. We don’t have to guess at their intent when they drafted him. We know what it was.
They saw him as a starter who could move to relief if starting didn’t work out. They did not draft him to be a reliever.
I think that Morrow was viewed as being able to do either, but that the org saw that his potential would probably be better fulfilled as a starter, the same as we all did.
Fair enough. First hand knowledge is better than what I’m bring to the table. My apologies Jeff.
Shame on some of you. Actually insisting that the Mariners should tell Brandon to be a starter, and disregard his Type I diabetes. Do you know how serious a condition he has? This isn’t Type II diabetes, which many Americans suffer from. Yet, some of you treat it like it’s something he can just get over. Wake up. This is a potentially life threatening condition. Brandon isn’t making this decision to spite you or the organization. He’s being honest with himself about what he can do, and what he feels he cannot. HE is the only one who knows, none of you do.
Let’s say it was you with his condition. You have to work long hours and wear down easily. Constantly wearing an insulin pump and pricking your finger several times a day, just to be sure your blood sugars are correct. You go to your boss and tell him/her that the workload is too hard on you. And, his reply is, “I don’t care, do what I tell you or get out.”
That’s exactly what some of you expect. Grow up and get over the “wahhhh, I want Morrow to the a starter” montra. He’s doing what he feels is best for himself and the organization. Respect his decision.
Really, shame on some of you. This isn’t some game to him. This is his life. Imagine had the Red Sox told Jon Lester to worry about his cancer, when it’s more suited to the clubs needs.
No apologies necessary, and (even with my reservations about his mechanics and ability to have a long career) I’d obviously rather have Lincecum than Morrow after yesterday’s news; but at the time of that draft, there were plenty of people that liked Morrow BETTER than Lincecum, and I don’t think anyone would’ve told you at the time that Lincecum’s successes as of 2009 would be so much more impressive than Morrow’s.
At the time, Morrow was a good pick. Maybe not the best pick, but calling taking him over Lincecum “epic fail” like someone did earlier in the comments here is pretty silly.
I’m not seeing anyone insist that Morrow play despite legitimate health concerns — in fact, the only thing I read about that was sympathy. Or even much insistence that he be forced to start.
I understand the sentiment in defending him, but I don’t know what you’re reacting so strongly to.
Isn’t it possible that Morrow made this choice from a financial standpoint? Teams are still overvaluing the closer role, and a closer is likely to get paid more than a #3 starter, which is basically Morrow’s upside, here. I think we all agree he can be a pretty lights out closer, the way his fastball moves, if he can keep people off of the basepaths (walks, that is). It could just be a realization by Morrow that if he wants to be an all-star, he’ll have to close, because he’ll never be Felix. Or am I way off-base here?
Teams are still overvaluing the closer role, and a closer is likely to get paid more than a #3 starter, which is basically Morrow’s upside, here.
Go look at the salaries for the following players:
Gil Meche
Jarrod Washburn
Carlos Silva
Mariano Rivera
It’s pretty obvious that Rivera is miles above those other guys as a pitcher- I think you can make a case that Mariano Rivera is the best stopper ever, given his incredible consistency through his career- but he’s sure not PAID like it.
Now, granted, the market for mediocre starting pitching is adjusting a bit from a few years ago, but then the other side of the coin is that Mariano Rivera is something like the 99.99% projection for Brandon Morrow- the more typical career for a good-but-not-HOF closer is someone like, say, Troy Percival (who, BTW, has never made more than 8 million per year). The fact of the matter is that relief aces who throw 80 IP in late inning situations are more fungible than starters who throw 200 IP- since you can convert a failed starter with a good fastball + one offspeed pitch to relief ace, but I’ve never really seen it go the other way (ace reliever into top of rotation starter) in the modern era (with the exception of guys like Eckersley or Smoltz who were quality starters to begin with). In fact, Goose Gossage and Rollie Fingers, HOF relief aces of recent vintage, didn’t do much as starting pitchers.
EC — Not to be too nitpicky here, but Charlie Hough (albeit a knuckleballer) and Derek Lowe also both come to mind in that handful of guys who were able to make a successful transition from a set-up/closer role to starter.
You’re right, though, there weren’t as many guys going in that direction…though I’ve wondered once or twice myself if “The Goose” (who threw 200+ innings out of the rotation in 1976) might not have gotten a second look in that role had he not been such a hard-luck starter on a mediocre Chisox team.
Hough as a knuckleballer isn’t a great analogy (and I don’t think he was ever a top-of-rotation starter or great relief ace- he’s more like Tim Wakefield). Derek Lowe I’d give you (though he was a starter coming up). Maybe that’s what we can hope for…