The Morrow Situation

Dave · June 15, 2009 at 10:04 am · Filed Under Mariners 

I think we’ve made it obvious that we’re pretty big fans of the new administration. Since Zduriencik was hired and put his team in place, we’ve seen the organization take some huge steps forward. The Putz deal was fantastic. Signing Branyan was exactly the kind of move we’ve been arguing in favor of for years. The team prioritized outfield defense, and we’ve seen the benefits of the Three CF Plan. Honestly, the new front office has given us a ton of reasons to be extremely excited about where this team is headed and to believe in the future of the Seattle Mariners. With all that said…

What on earth are you guys doing with Brandon Morrow?

Going into spring training, he was slotted in as the team’s #3 starter. Then, we had the whole end-of-spring training fiasco where Morrow asked to be moved to the bullpen, because he wasn’t going to be ready to start the year in the rotation and apparently didn’t want to go to the minors. Now, we don’t know what Morrow told Zduriencik and Wakamatsu at that time, but given how much waffling he’s done on the issue since, it’s hard to imagine he was so forceful in his conviction that they didn’t have the option to say “no, you’re a starter, you’ll be up with us in May.”

But, maybe the diabetes thing really was convincing, and they believed him when he said he’d been thinking of moving back to the bullpen ever since the Putz trade, feeling like it’s where he belonged. We’ll give them some benefit of the doubt on how that part was handled. It doesn’t end there, of course.

After getting himself straightened out and pitching well, he showed up with some shoulder soreness and the team decided to put him on the disabled list, despite the fact that he claimed he could pitch. I’m all for caution with arm problems, but Morrow was legitimately upset that they put him on the DL when he claimed he was fine. To make matters worse, he was immediately placed back into the closer role as soon as he came off the DL, and predictably, this didn’t work out so well. Wak even admitted that this wasn’t a very good idea, Morrow’s struggles after coming off the DL eventually led him to losing his job as the closer and ending up in middle relief.

Wait, we’re still not done. After failing as a closer because of his lousy command and over-reliance on his fastball, Morrow came to the club and told them he wanted to go back to the rotation. He felt like he was selling himself short by moving to the bullpen, and wanted to give starting another shot. He knew he needed to work on his secondary pitches and to improve his command, and he was willing to head to the minors “for as long as necessary” in order to work his way back to the big leagues as a major league ready starter. After a roller coaster ride of three years of being mishandled, he was finally going to get the minor league seasoning he needed, working on his pitches in low pressure environments and refining his command away from the spotlight of major league action.

It had taken a long time, but we were finally at the right point. Morrow would go to the minors, learn how to pitch, work out his mechanical flaws, and come back to Seattle when he possessed more than just a big fastball. The long, windy road at least ended up at the right place.

Then, for reasons that still don’t make a lot of sense, the M’s reversed course again and gave him a start in Colorado due to Bedard’s shoulder pain. The team had other options – Chris Jakubauskas could easily have made the start, or the team could have recalled Ryan Rowland-Smith or Gaby Hernandez from Tacoma. Yes, there are issues with each of those guys, and I get that the team doesn’t feel like RRS is ready to start in Seattle yet, but neither was Brandon Morrow.

But, you know, we can overlook a short speed bump in the plan. Bedard’s shoulder problems threw a monkey wrench into the timetable, so Morrow had to stick around for a little bit longer. Okay. Fine, whatever. But now, the team has announced that Morrow will get another start against San Diego, and now he might not go to the minor leagues at all. Wak is talking like he wants Morrow to transition to being a starter in the major leagues.

Come on. Can we please stop changing our minds with this guy every 10 minutes? If going to the minors for a few months was a good idea a week ago, it’s still a good idea. Nothing that happened in Colorado on Saturday should have changed anyone’s mind about Morrow’s need for some time in Triple-A. The organization was convinced it was the best thing for him. He was convinced it was the best thing for him. Everyone who watched him pitch was convinced that it was the best thing for him.

But now, for whatever reason, we’re going to have watch Morrow walk the world in San Diego while the team tries to stay in a playoff race that they’re not really in. We’re getting the worst of both worlds – the team’s failing to give themselves the best chance to win games and they’re failing to put Morrow in the situation where he’s best able to develop long term. What we have now is this weird middle ground where the team isn’t buyers or sellers, Morrow isn’t a major leaguer or a minor leaguer, and he’s not really a starter but also not a reliever.

Welcome to confusion land.

Can someone in the front office just make the right call, write it in stone, and end the conversation? Send Brandon to Tacoma and tell him he’ll be back when he figures out how to throw strikes 65% of the time and throw less than 65% fastballs for 7+ innings. If that takes a month, great. If that takes until September, fine. But no one wants to see Morrow start in San Diego, continuing his high wire act where he tries to develop and win at the same time.

The front office has done a lot of things right. They’ve just done this one thing very wrong. Please fix it.

Comments

40 Responses to “The Morrow Situation”

  1. Sports on a Schtick on June 15th, 2009 10:20 am

    If people are going to blame Bavasi for Morrow’s wonky development then people need to start criticizing Z and Wak as well. Just because you didn’t start the problem doesn’t mean you should let it continue or even exacerbate it. What a thoroughly botched situation.

  2. Graham on June 15th, 2009 10:28 am

    I am waiting for the announcement that Aumont will start tomorrow’s game.

  3. C. Cheetah on June 15th, 2009 10:30 am

    THis is NOT a Wak problem…and it probably is not even a Z problem.
    The problem is that the Mariner’s Marketing team is demanding that Morrow be on the roster until AFTER his BOBBLEHEAD NIGHT.
    Thus, we only have to put up with this for another 10 days or so…as dumb as that reasoning is.

  4. G-Man on June 15th, 2009 10:33 am

    I suspected that Morrow’s desire to be a reliever was not on because he didn’t want to go back to Tacoma, but also because he thought he could nail down the closer’s job and perhaps land a multi-year contract buying out some arb years next winter.

  5. PositivePaul on June 15th, 2009 10:41 am

    THis is NOT a Wak problem…and it probably is not even a Z problem.
    The problem is that the Mariner’s Marketing team is demanding that Morrow be on the roster until AFTER his BOBBLEHEAD NIGHT.

    Meh. The M’s had Boonie Bat Night scheduled in late 2005, and he was a very popular player in Seattle — FAR more popular than Morrow — and they still released him before that night.

  6. collage on June 15th, 2009 10:41 am

    [Lincoln/Armstrong conspiracy theory]

  7. geo on June 15th, 2009 10:46 am

    I understand so many people wiling to cut some slack to the Z team. But if Morrow has this much control over where and when he pitches he has got to be one of the most powerful players in the game, certainly the most powerful unestablished player. This strikes me as management continuation of being so excited about the electricity in Morrow’s pitches they want him on the mound now not later, in what ever capacity.

  8. patl on June 15th, 2009 10:46 am

    The thing that concerns me the most is that Wakamatsu’s quotes in Drayer’s blog seem to indicate that he’s interested only in building up Morrow’s pitch count, whereas I think Morrow needs work on his secondary pitches and his pitch mechanics to give him consistency. He could certainly build up pitch counts at the major league level, but to do the other work it seems to be much more effective to do that where wins and losses don’t matter, down in AAA.

  9. heyoka on June 15th, 2009 10:54 am

    As long as we’re trying to figure out this situation….

    At least from Brandon Morrow’s end, he’s probably going through a few things:
    1. Out of spring training he realized the road to being a starter may be long, and as an established and dominating closer, he can earn a bigger paycheck when arbitration/free agency comes around. Diabetes was merely the excuse.

    2. After having trouble and being demoted, thereby diminishing his closer status, he probably had Norm Charlton talking in his ear and realized that even mediocre starters will get a bigger paycheck than relievers.

    As far as what management is doing, I’m totally flummoxed. Perhaps they’re trying to challenge him with major league hitters to the point that when he gets sent down he’ll work that much harder to get it right. That seems stupid, but it’s hard to figure out the potential reasoning behind this. Perhaps if they do feel they’re competing, they’re taking a chance and hoping he has a ball-bounces-the-right-way, results based kind of success that makes him a more attractive trade chip for upgrading the offense later in the season.

  10. Carson on June 15th, 2009 10:54 am

    The bobblehead thing had crossed my mind, but I really can’t imagine the front office using that as a reason to keep him up.

    I can’t, however, figure out why they would. I suppose this is one of those times where I just have to say “In Jack We Trust” – but, it’s really a head scratcher this time.

  11. bakomariner on June 15th, 2009 10:59 am

    I think this is the first sign that they have given up on the season, are going to trade Bedard and Washburn, and they need him up for the rotation…they probably don’t care that he gets killed because they know the season is over…

    Hell, I dunno…

  12. msb on June 15th, 2009 11:00 am

    And factor in (from Drayer’s blog):

    “He has been working on building his pitch count and refining his mechanics both to better his pitches and preserve his arm under the eye of Rick Adair. These assorted forearm and elbow injuries, though not serious, are a concern and better to nip that in the bud now.”

  13. Dave on June 15th, 2009 11:12 am

    The problem is that the Mariner’s Marketing team is demanding that Morrow be on the roster until AFTER his BOBBLEHEAD NIGHT.
    Thus, we only have to put up with this for another 10 days or so.

    This just isn’t true.

  14. Utis on June 15th, 2009 11:17 am

    It looks like the front office is preparing to pull the plug on the season although they are not ready to say anything out loud yet (via trades). This move signals a shift to an emphasis on development. If the M’s manage to hang around in the race, expect Morrow to head to Tacoma. If the M’s fall out of the race, expect Morrow to stay with the M’s or be traded.

    Bedard and Washburn also figure in all of this since their health will dictate if we can hang around in the division race. If Bedard and Washburn are traded, we’ll need Morrow here sooner rather than later.

  15. Paul B on June 15th, 2009 11:17 am

    To the casual observer, Wak seems to have a bipolar way of dealing with injuries.

    Pitchers that are hurt go on the DL (as Morrow did).

    Hitters could have a limb hanging by a thread and still stay on the active roster. OK, I know Ichiro and Johjima have both been on the DL this year. But many other times we’ve seen guys miss a week or two of games without going on the DL.

    Am I off base here? Or does this reflect on Wak’s managerial philosophy?

  16. Chris_From_Bothell on June 15th, 2009 11:40 am

    The front office has done a lot of things right. They’ve just done this one thing very wrong.

    Um, two things very wrong. Unless Betancourt’s issues are being handled in the best possible way, and Z and Wak have no other options or approaches available to them.

    I agree with you 100%, otherwise. I’m still waiting for Morrow to decide he’s never liked pitching all along, and what he really wanted to be was a lumberjack.

  17. Dave on June 15th, 2009 11:45 am

    Unless Betancourt’s issues are being handled in the best possible way, and Z and Wak have no other options or approaches available to them.

    This post is about Morrow, but I’ll just say this – they’re trying like crazy to get a shortstop. Ronny Cedeno has been a disaster, unfortunately, and there aren’t any shortstops in the organization. They’ve handled that situation well, given the options.

  18. ThundaPC on June 15th, 2009 12:08 pm

    Rolling the dice on development.

    “If we can do the same thing here that he would be doing in Tacoma, he gets what you can’t replicate – major league experience,” manager Don Wakamatsu said.

    I’ve seen quite a few moves that were done more in the name of development than trying to provide filler or maximizing chances of winning. Garret Olson gets starts so we can see what he’s about. Jakubauskas isn’t getting starts because there are things he needs to work on. Quiroz was brought up over Burke originally to see what he can bring.

    And based on being able to track his progress in long relief Wakamatsu seems to believe that Morrow can continue his development as a starter while simultaneously helping the team win plug giving Bedard/Washburn some extra rest.

    I have trouble getting worked up over this issue. I certainly don’t condone any additional yo-yo’ing but given how this team is completely in flux I don’t mind it as much and trust that Wak is able to handle this without messing up Morrow any more than he already is.

    Plus, the way they have it set up it’s basically like a Morrow/Jakubauskas tag starting combo where Morrow goes as far as possible before handing the baton to Jakubauskas. Yea, it’s not an optimum strategy but I appreciate the effort.

  19. ppl on June 15th, 2009 12:31 pm

    Maybe the organization has already determined that Morrow will not be a long-term front-line starting pitcher. And if they need to make a trade that requires dealing off younger upside guys, they have very little that they can spare. So maybe they plan on trading Morrow, and they may have already have had teams inquire about him.

    In the right deal, he probably is way more valuable than he would be as a reliever. But there is a risk he will excel someday, elsewhere, but that is why he has trade value. So starting him, may also be showcasing him.

  20. Red Apple on June 15th, 2009 12:46 pm

    Maybe the organization has already determined that Morrow will not be a long-term front-line starting pitcher.

    No way. He has electric, no-hit stuff; we’ve all seen it. They’re not crazy enough to think he doesn’t have what it takes.

  21. Russ on June 15th, 2009 12:51 pm

    Maybe the organization has already determined that Morrow will not be a long-term front-line starting pitcher. And if they need to make a trade that requires dealing off younger upside guys, they have very little that they can spare. So maybe they plan on trading Morrow, and they may have already have had teams inquire about him.

    In the right deal, he probably is way more valuable than he would be as a reliever. But there is a risk he will excel someday, elsewhere, but that is why he has trade value. So starting him, may also be showcasing him.

    Not to pick on you specifically but…

    You don’t win a “showcase” by walking a pitcher.

    You’ve slung just about any possibility for the ‘reason’ other then what is likely true. I think they are making the best decisions they can with the information available at the time the decision is made. That they are willing to change directions is way more interesting to me.

  22. Mid80sRighty on June 15th, 2009 1:45 pm

    This post is about Morrow, but I’ll just say this – they’re trying like crazy to get a shortstop.

    JJ Hardy?

    Anyway, back to the topic, I find the trade aspect interesting. Could this be a factor in what they’re doing with Morrow? For trade reasons, would he be more valuable if he stuck with the big club? Would it be possible that he’s already been discussed in a trade, but ‘team x’ wants the M’s to start stretching him out before they get him in a trade?

  23. JMHawkins on June 15th, 2009 2:03 pm

    I’m baffled by this. It makes for a very Jekell and Hyde appearance. I just don’t understand how the same front office could get the other things right (and I too think they’re handling the Bentancourt thing as well as possible) and screw this up so badly.

  24. CCW on June 15th, 2009 2:13 pm

    It sure looks bad on the surface. I do think Morrow’s circumstances are unusual and difficult, though, and without getting inside their heads, I’m still inclined to give the M’s decision makers the benefit of the doubt. Difficult circumstances:

    1) The M’s are still in the race. I know Dave says they’re effectively out of the race, but I don’t think Wak or Z see it that way yet.

    2) The diabetes thing is tough to deal with. If the guy says he can’t start because of his diabetes, it’s hard to argue with him. If he changes his mind… well, you wanted him to start in the first place, so, again, it’s tough to argue with him.

    3) Morrow is talented enough, even with all the walks, to be quite valuable to the M’s right now. It’s pretty rare you have a guy who could stand to benefit so much from time in the minors who is also good enough to be a substantial benefit to the major league club.

    4) The M’s really need pitching right now. Both bullpen and starting.

    5) Bedard went down in the middle of all this.

    So, yeah, the flip-flopping is annoying, and I bet Wak and Z would admit mistakes have been made, but it’s somewhat understandable.

  25. joser on June 15th, 2009 2:23 pm

    Showcasing is a bit of a myth anyway. Teams have scouts. They know what he is (and currently isn’t). One more start isn’t going to change any minds.

    If the M’s manage to hang around in the race, expect Morrow to head to Tacoma. If the M’s fall out of the race, expect Morrow to stay with the M’s or be traded.

    Bedard and Washburn also figure in all of this since their health will dictate if we can hang around in the division race. If Bedard and Washburn are traded, we’ll need Morrow here sooner rather than later.

    This sounds exactly backwards to me. If the team has decided it can’t hang in the division race, or
    if they trade Washburn and/or Bedard, the right thing is still to send Morrow down. Pick any two of RRS, Gaby Hernandez, and/or Jakubauskas to fill in as starters. Sure, they may have rough outings, but so what? — you’ve already conceded the season anyway. Meanwhile, Morrow belongs in Tacoma a learning to the really good starting pitcher everyone thinks he can be.

    If the team is contending, you want Morrow in Tacoma learning to be a starter. If the team is not contending, you want Morrow in Tacoma learning to be a starter. In fact the only scenario I can come up with where you don’t send him to Tacoma to be a starter is the one where they don’t want him to run up innings because they think they might need him as a reliever in September — but in that case, you wouldn’t be starting him in Colorado or San Diego either.

    Dave laid it out quite clearly. This situation has been marked by confusion since Spring Training, and it is no less confusing now. These are smart guys, so we have to assume there’s more going on, but given how mishandled Morrow has been all year it’s hard to give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.

    That said, this is the only criticism of any significance I can make about the current regime, and that’s a huge step up from the past.

    But many other times we’ve seen guys miss a week or two of games without going on the DL.

    I don’t want to get too far off the Morrow topic, but: “a week or two”? Many other times? Really? I’m having trouble thinking of even one. Yuni was off for a week as a deliberate benching. Gutierrez and Cedeno were both unavailable for less than a week (it was hard to tell with Cedeno, of course, given his non-starting status). Griffey and Sweeney are part-time players also (and only Sweeney has been actually unavailable, but his back only kept him out a couple of days). With Rob Johnson it’s kind of unclear, since he’s now on the bereavement list, but they apparently thought he’d be back sooner than would be required by the 15 day DL. Who else has even missed a couple of games in a row?

    That they are willing to change directions is way more interesting to me.

    That’s worth noting, and it’s certainly a nice change from the cognitive constipation represented by “roles” and one-size-fits-all philosophies like “promote to failure.” But surely there’s some middle ground that is better than both the head-in-concrete fixedness of the past regime and the butterfly-in-a-tornado drunken walk that Dave has recounted above. When it comes to Morrow, the team has shown the firmness of purpose you usually associate with toddlers in toy stores or teenage girls with, well, anything.

  26. bilbo27 on June 15th, 2009 2:33 pm

    That is an interesting quote from Wak. It almost seems to indicate that perhaps he doesn’t have faith in the AAA pitching coach to correct Morrow’s many mechanical flaws or something along that lines.

    I don’t really care if he’s pitching here or there, except to say that they have to be careful with a still relatively young player like that. He’s going to get killed (largely because of the walks and also because he currently has one pitch, which he can’t locate). So having him get killed out there every start over the next month or more when the team is trying to compete could well mess with his head even more than it must already be (as well as kill the bullpen).

    If he can handle it mentally, then fine. But it’s a rare guy that can, given the situation is in. Just to be on the safe side, i’d prefer he worked things out in Tacoma and build up some confidence along with his command and secondary pitches. But on the plus side, Morrow starting in the majors probably helps get the M’s out of the race that they are barely staying in. So then Jack can do his thing and make us good for the future. And perhaps this is all part of JZ’s plan. Start Morrow, casual fans are happy; Morrow’s happy while still getting to develop as a starter; M’s lose more games; JZ can then start making trades. Genius! ;-)

  27. gps on June 15th, 2009 2:50 pm

    Two questions come to mind:

    If Morrow decides next week he wants to play second base, will management go along with it?

    Morrow bobblehead night: WTF??

  28. diderot on June 15th, 2009 3:02 pm

    I don’t see this as entirely confounding.
    Morrow is currently a mystery on at least two levels–pitching mechanics and the diabetes issue. And on top of that, we can only guess how that’s affecting his psyche (and I think it’s pretty clear that some of this developmental disruption has been his own responsibility).
    Given that, it seems logical to me to have those issues sorted out in front of the eyes of the organization that really matter…

    unless…

    you believe the M’s think they’re really in contention. The proof that they don’t is Griffey’s presence in the lineup.

    This is a rebuilding year and we’d all be better off if we’d just accept it.

  29. Utis on June 15th, 2009 3:13 pm

    Meanwhile, Morrow belongs in Tacoma learning to be the really good starting pitcher everyone thinks he can be.

    I tend to agree. However, I have seen quotes from the M’s stating that what Morrow needs to learn can be taught to him in Seattle just as well as Tacoma.

    We’ll see. At least the move to starting is a step in the right direction.

  30. eponymous coward on June 15th, 2009 3:14 pm

    you believe the M’s think they’re really in contention. The proof that they don’t is Griffey’s presence in the lineup.

    Er, so they’re keeping a 39 year old DH who can’t hit on a non-contending team because it will help the team develop in 2010? As opposed to playing guys who are tearing it up in Tacoma and might actually be on the roster next year?

    I’m afraid I don’t follow the logic here. If anything, giving the veterans the heave-ho (Boone, Everett, Vidro) is usually the time-honored signal for “OK, time to play for next year”.

  31. georgmi on June 15th, 2009 3:23 pm

    they’re keeping a 39 year old DH who can’t hit on a non-contending team because it will help the team develop in 2010?

    No, they’re keeping the fan-favorite certain-Hall-of-Famer in the lineup because that’s what most fans want to see, judging from the sales of everything in the Team Stores they can slap a “24″ on. Boone, Everett, Vidro, they are many things, but what they are not is the man who “saved baseball in Seattle” and “built Safeco Field”. Conventional, nor even new-school, logic does not apply.

  32. eponymous coward on June 15th, 2009 3:46 pm

    No, they’re keeping the fan-favorite certain-Hall-of-Famer in the lineup because that’s what most fans want to see, judging from the sales of everything in the Team Stores they can slap a “24″ on

    First off, Everett, Boone, etc. didn’t lose their jobs until a bit later in the year.

    Secondly- I bet they could sell even more memorabilia if they put Edgar and Wilson in the lineup…

  33. Soonerman22 on June 15th, 2009 3:46 pm

    I liked Larry Stones line about how the Mariners in “a Playoff Race” are giving Morrow on the job training.

    I thought in March when he was made the closer something smelled fishy. And I understand the diabetes excuse, and it is a good one. It is life and death which is way beyond baseball. And if he says that I have to trust him. But also in my mind I think of Adam Morrison and Jay Cutler in other sports who have the same kind of diabetes but live full normal lives in there sports. Nothing against Morrow or pitchers, but I personally think Cutler’s job is way more physically demanding, but his diabetes isn’t an issue. So why should Morrow’s? That all being said I still have to take his word for it. Like I said this is beyond baseball. It is life and death.

    But then he was going to Tacoma to be a starter. That was the highlight of my week last week, because he was becoming a starter, and I sniffed it out before they announced it when he started throwing 3 innings of relief. When he started pitching from the wind up. His interview with Gas about a month ago where he said he really missed starting.

    But now I feel like with the start in Colorado and now San Diego they are treating him like an innings eater and a disposable arm. Like you would treat Jakubauskas, Vargas, Batista, not a #1 draft pick (no matter how windy his rout to become a starter has been.)

    I sure hope they don’t screw up his arm!!!

  34. georgmi on June 15th, 2009 3:52 pm

    I bet they could sell even more memorabilia if they put Edgar and Wilson in the lineup…

    If nothing else, I could wear my 11 jersey and my wife could wear her 6 to games again…

  35. djw on June 15th, 2009 4:47 pm

    Morrow is talented enough, even with all the walks, to be quite valuable to the M’s right now

    You must have watched a different game than I did. Talented, yes, but until he figures out where the ball is going, he’s likely to provide below replacement level outcomes.

  36. Slurve on June 15th, 2009 4:51 pm

    Talk about a mishandled prospect…

    Maybe they want to do the whole enter the minors after a good start but that’s just stupid… He has the pitches he never throws them and leaving him in the ML only makes him trust his fastball even more.

  37. Axtell on June 15th, 2009 6:15 pm

    Is it possible this change in course comes from the emergence of Aardsma as the closer, and that both Morrow and the M’s see that and want to get the most value out of Morrow, and that’s in moving him back to a starter?

  38. geo on June 16th, 2009 12:39 am

    3) Morrow is talented enough, even with all the walks, to be quite valuable to the M’s right now. It’s pretty rare you have a guy who could stand to benefit so much from time in the minors who is also good enough to be a substantial benefit to the major league club.

    He wouldn’t be the first wild pitcher to stick in the majors due to K rate. Randy was pretty wild when the M’s picked him up. Morrow has already shown he can overcome adversity, that is a big step. Whether he has stamina is a big question though.

  39. eponymous coward on June 16th, 2009 8:22 am

    Morrow is talented enough, even with all the walks, to be quite valuable to the M’s right now. It’s pretty rare you have a guy who could stand to benefit so much from time in the minors who is also good enough to be a substantial benefit to the major league club.

    The thing is that at this point, Morrow’s closer to being Matt Thornton or David Aardsma (a relief pitcher who flailed around in the majors for a while until they figured out where their pitches) than Randy Johnson, or even JJ Putz (both of whom spent years starting in the minors). That’s a huge waste of a first round draft pick.

    Morrow pitching that Yankee game might have been the worst thing for his career, in hindsight- now everyone expects that as his talent level.

  40. BigDumbSwede on June 16th, 2009 5:31 pm

    [Lincoln-Armstrong conspiracy theory]

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