Game 89, Mariners at Indians

Jeff Nye · July 16, 2009 at 4:23 pm · Filed Under Game Threads, Mariners 

4:05, FSN.

I’ll post lineups shortly.

Lineups:
SEATTLE MARINERS
Ichiro Suzuki – RF
Russell Branyan – 1B
Jose Lopez – 2B
Ken Griffey Jr. – DH
Franklin Gutierrez – CF
Ryan Langerhans – LF
Kenji Johjima – C
Chris Woodward – 3B
Ronny Cedeno – SS

CLEVELAND INDIANS
Grady Sizemore – CF
Asdrubal Cabrera – SS
Shin-Soo Choo – RF
Victor Martinez – 1B
Travis Hafner – DH
Jhonny Peralta – 3B
Ben Francisco – LF
Jamey Carroll – 2B
Kelly Shoppach – C

Comments

69 Responses to “Game 89, Mariners at Indians”

  1. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 4:26 pm

    Not exactly Mr. Olson’s most propitious beginning.

  2. Big Bob on July 16th, 2009 4:29 pm

    That Cabrera kid looks good, I wonder where he came from…. ;)

    DAMN YOU BAVASI!!!

  3. naviomelo on July 16th, 2009 4:29 pm

    Not exactly Mr. Olson’s most propitious beginning.

    I even learn new words here!

  4. msb on July 16th, 2009 4:33 pm

    So Joh is throwing runners out at a 52% clip this season?

  5. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 4:40 pm

    So Joh is throwing runners out at a 52% clip this season?

    Yes, but what’s his CERA?

  6. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 4:42 pm

    More important question for Kenji: did he notice that taking two pitches out of the strike zone got him a four-seam fastball right down the middle?

  7. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 4:47 pm

    “More important question for Kenji: did he notice that taking two pitches out of the strike zone got him a four-seam fastball right down the middle?”

    More more important question for Kenji: does management realize he’s better than Rob Johnson in just about every facet of his game? ;-)

  8. Paul B on July 16th, 2009 4:48 pm

    Typical Wakamatsu, starting Griffey and Langerhans against a lefty.

    In a day or two, Griffey will probably get a day off against a righty.

  9. Jeff Nye on July 16th, 2009 4:53 pm

    Yes, but what’s his CERA?

    You know, we don’t have a “dead memes” list like LL does, but seeing this every time a catcher is mentioned makes me want to start one.

    Can we retire this joke, pretty please with sugar on top?

  10. Big Bob on July 16th, 2009 4:56 pm

    Hmmm maybe they should have sent Olson down and had Vargas starting today.

  11. naviomelo on July 16th, 2009 5:03 pm

    Wow, UZR really doesn’t like Sizemore this year, and he’s declined every year since his peak in 2006. Something for the Indians to worry about? It wasn’t really that long ago that he was the class of CF in the AL.

  12. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 5:05 pm

    “Typical Wakamatsu, starting Griffey and Langerhans against a lefty.”

    Griffey’s actually doing significantly better against lefties this season than righties (small sample size to be sure, but interesting to look at)

    Griffey against lefties this year:

    35 games, 44 AB’s 12 hits, 3 DB’s, 6 HRs, 10 RBI’s, 11 BB, 10 SO, .272 BA, .418 OBP, .750 SLG, 1.17 OPS

    Griffey against righties this year:

    64 games, 186 ABs, 39 hits, 9 DB, 4 HR, 16 RBI, 32 BB, 30 SO, .325 OBP, .213 BA, .328 SLG, .541 OPS

    And Langerhans is pretty even either way over his career.

  13. Paul B on July 16th, 2009 5:07 pm

    Do you think Griffey would hit better than Shelton against lefties over a larger sample?

  14. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 5:18 pm

    “Do you think Griffey would hit better than Shelton against lefties over a larger sample?”

    Probably not. But he probably just put him in because it’s the 1st game after the break and Griffey is the DH “starter”. And in a 1 game sample size, who knows who’d do better? I expect going forward we’ll see Shelton against the lefties. Also perhaps could be Shelton’s career numbers against Lee aren’t good (I don’t know that, just throwing it out as a possibility *hopes someone takes the time to look it up* ;-) ).

    And can I just say, what is up with Joh? out of 8 outs Kenji got two of them. Suck it Johnson! ;-)

  15. joser on July 16th, 2009 5:21 pm

    Kenji: death to running ex-Mariners.

    Maybe Olson should just walk everybody and let Kenji throw them out.

  16. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 5:22 pm

    One almost thinks Wak decided to give the team an extra day off, what with Cliff Lee on the mound and all.

  17. djw on July 16th, 2009 5:25 pm

    Also perhaps could be Shelton’s career numbers against Lee aren’t good (I don’t know that, just throwing it out as a possibility *hopes someone takes the time to look it up* ;-) ).

    Pitcher-Batter matchup stats have no predictive value whatsoever. It’s unwise to make decisions based on them, rather than simply handedness splits. The latter actually have the sample size to be meaningful. If this is the basis for a decision, it’s a foolish one.

  18. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 5:26 pm

    On a side note. Moyer’s no-hit the Marlins so far and is in the 5th and Raul’s hit 2 home runs in 2 AB’s. Go former M’s! :-)

  19. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 5:32 pm

    Go former M’s!

    Other than Choo and Cabrera, please.

  20. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 5:32 pm

    “Pitcher-Batter match up stats have no predictive value whatsoever.”

    Wouldn’t it have a predictive value if it’s a large enough sample size? (btw i’m not trying to argue, I’m genuinely curious).

  21. Jeff Nye on July 16th, 2009 5:33 pm

    Wouldn’t it have a predictive value if it’s a large enough sample size?

    Maybe, but I can’t imagine many pitcher/batter pairs getting to match up against each other enough to make a reasonable sample size feasible.

  22. Scottdids on July 16th, 2009 5:40 pm

    Cedeno blast!! C’mon boys only down 2!

  23. JerBear on July 16th, 2009 5:42 pm

    Little Ronnie going opposite field!!!

    That’s actually the second ball he’s tagged pretty good tonight!

  24. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 5:43 pm

    There’s a big difference between saying “batter-pitcher match up stats have no predictive value whatsoever” and that a manager can’t make a determination that a particular pitcher is a bad matchup for a batter (or vice versa). It is absolutely the job of the managers and coaches to say “this guy throws a cutter down and in that this other guy can’t hit with a rake.”

  25. joser on July 16th, 2009 5:52 pm

    Every time I see Jakubauskas’ official mug shot all I can think of is “You’re a mean one….”

  26. juneau_fan on July 16th, 2009 5:56 pm

    Every time I see Jakubauskas’ official mug shot all I can think of is “You’re a mean one….”

    Wow, he looks exactly like The Grinch, only without the green skin.

    Now Langerhans looks mean.

  27. et_blankenship on July 16th, 2009 6:23 pm

    My 3-year old used to call him “Jackal Baskets” and die laughing at his own brand of humor, but he has since switched to the darker yet more symbolic moniker of “Jak-O-Lantern.”

  28. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 6:26 pm

    Can we please call up Mike Wilson already? I mean come the hell on he hit 9 HR in the spring for us that has to be worth something. The only reason he did not make the team out of spring training is because balentien was out of options. We my as well call him up and see if he can indeed hit at the big league level and see if he has a future with this team. I compare him to Ryan Howard. Like Howard Wilson is a late bloomer, as Howard did not make his debut till he was 25. Wilson is currantly 26 I do believe. Plus he is tearing up the minors right now. What do we have to lose? That Balentien is currantly doing which is very little. Then at the very least we could platoon Wilson and Langerhans in LF. Nonetheless, we could then include Balentien in any potential trade involving JJ Hardy, instead of having to throw in a prospect or two.

  29. MsofEnchantment on July 16th, 2009 6:36 pm

    Any reason we don’t pinch hit Shelton right here?

  30. MsofEnchantment on July 16th, 2009 6:37 pm

    Ugh, nevermind.

  31. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 6:38 pm

    sloppy

  32. ndrfx on July 16th, 2009 6:38 pm

    Chris Woodward sucks.

  33. MsofEnchantment on July 16th, 2009 6:39 pm

    4 errors from the infield. Hopefully they’re getting them out of their system against Lee.

  34. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 6:45 pm

    At this point I am all for human cloneing. Here’s hoping Beltre gives him self up for science. Beltre fields at 3rd, throws to Beltre at 2nd, Beltre throws to Beltre to turn the inning ending double play at 1st. Sounds good to me, any objections?

  35. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 6:47 pm

    105 pitches and Lee is throwing strikes like a crazy man, 92, 75, 94, 97, to Gutz. My God, who can hit that?

  36. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 6:48 pm

    What’s Johjima’s CERA again?

  37. Breadbaker on July 16th, 2009 6:49 pm

    Wlad must really be in the doghouse if he isn’t brought up to pinch hit for Woodward here.

  38. vern on July 16th, 2009 6:49 pm

    Imagine if Kenji played in games they wanted to win?

  39. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 6:50 pm

    A catcher who can hit, is death to running things, and plays solid all around at his position? hmm let’s use Rob Johnson instead… ;-)

  40. mln on July 16th, 2009 6:51 pm

    CERA forever!

  41. JWay on July 16th, 2009 6:53 pm

    So Boston says they’ll take all of Julio Lugo’s salary… Would be worth a flier at this point for a short stop or interim 3B?

    Fangraphs has him as an average or slightly below average short stop, and ZIPS projects him to finish with a .320 wOBA. Not outstanding, but he’d be an improvement no?

  42. flashbeak on July 16th, 2009 6:58 pm

    I’m losing my mind. Can someone remind me why Chris Woodward is on this team, or why he starts (even occasionally) for that matter? Shelton may be murder with the glove, but I doubt the downgrade would be that severe, considering how many times Woodward has booted balls starting at 3rd already.

  43. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 7:01 pm

    Woodward wasn’t the tying run, if by some miracle he did get on, I guarantee Wlad would have pinch hit for Cedeno. However, imo Wlad’s days as a Mariner could be numbered, I honestly believe that Mike Wilson will be in a Mariners uniform withing two weeks at the latest. We are desparate for hitting and if Wilson can provide that why not.

    Nonetheless, you never know with Wak he could have figured Cedeno could do something good at the plate two times in the same game. Which let’s face it hell has a better chance of freezing over than Cedeno has at hitting two HR’s in the same game.

  44. JMHawkins on July 16th, 2009 7:02 pm

    Well, at least this time when the M’s made a struggling pitcher look like a Cy Young winner, it was a Cy Young winner…

  45. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 7:14 pm

    “Wouldn’t it have a predictive value if it’s a large enough sample size? (btw i’m not trying to argue, I’m genuinely curious).”

    If for instance, a batter whether it be a LH or a RH batter was let’s say 1 for 20 lifetime against someone like a Johan Santana or even a marginal pitcher like Paul Bird, that has to be worth something. No? If anyone is 1 for 20 against anyone on my team, he is sitting out that day. Except Cedeno he seems to be 1 for 20 against everyone.

  46. Scottdids on July 16th, 2009 7:22 pm

    Mike Wilson is not in the plans for this team.

    And no, pitcher/batter matchups are useless, even in fairly large sample sizes , as the skills of those players can change as well. Look at a guy like Junior, his skillset is a lot different than it was 10 years ago. If somebody tells me he’s 1 for 30 against Jamie Moyer, does it really matter if most of those at bats were years ago?

    Even if those at-bats are recent, the sample size is too small. How many guys have .100 batting averages after the first 2 weeks of the season but end up at .280 when al is said and done?

  47. Quancy12 on July 16th, 2009 7:33 pm

    Not ready to jump ship quite yet, but this line up is disgusting and will continue to do exactly what they did tonight until a better solution is found.

  48. mln on July 16th, 2009 7:42 pm

    So Boston says they’ll take all of Julio Lugo’s salary… Would be worth a flier at this point for a short stop or interim 3B?

    A funny comment about the Red Sox trying to dump Julio Lugo and the Mariners on the YFSF website:

    “hey, if the Mariners can trade Yuneski to the royals, anything is possible!”

  49. SequimRealEstate on July 16th, 2009 7:43 pm

    Breadbaker capture what I was thinking. It felt from the get go that this was a gimme to Cleveland. Never felt like they were in or were going to come back. 9 hits usually produces 3-4 runs?

  50. Marinerz51 on July 16th, 2009 7:47 pm

    Even though Wilson may not be in the teams long term future as of now, he could still help this season, and possibly put him self in the Mariners’ plans for the future if he puts up close to Ryan Howard type numbers. Which someone with his power would be capable of doing.

  51. psquared on July 16th, 2009 7:49 pm

    In the 2nd inning when Gutierrez was up, Niehaus was describing him and actually said: “…he’s death to flying things in the outfield.”

    Doesn’t USSM have a trademark on that?

  52. Scottdids on July 16th, 2009 7:51 pm

    I had a feeling it would be one of those nights in the 1st inning on Branyan’s double. That ball hung in the air forever, then rebounded off the wall past Sizemore towards right center. I know Russell has 3 bases here, and thinking if it keeps rolling he might even get the inside the parker… Then they get the ball, throw it back in, and Russell is trotting into second base?

    It just seemed like a ton of mental mistakes were made tonight, and against Cliff Lee, that’s not going to get it done.

  53. SequimRealEstate on July 16th, 2009 8:03 pm

    Niehaus is the one who started DTFT

  54. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 8:09 pm

    “Doesn’t USSM have a trademark on that?”

    I thought it was Niehaus that originally called him that in the first place and the USSM picked it up. Am I wrong?

  55. EricL on July 16th, 2009 8:22 pm

    And, IIRC, Niehaus picked it up from the nickname of some 1890′s ballplayer.

  56. et_blankenship on July 16th, 2009 8:25 pm

    Even though Wilson may not be in the teams long term future as of now, he could still help this season, and possibly put him self in the Mariners’ plans for the future if he puts up close to Ryan Howard type numbers. Which someone with his power would be capable of doing.

    You do realize that Ryan Howard just shattered Ralph Kiner’s mark as the fastest player to reach 200 home runs. Ever.

  57. The Hamms Bear on July 16th, 2009 8:37 pm

    “possibly put him self in the Mariners’ plans for the future if he puts up close to Ryan Howard type numbers. Which someone with his power would be capable of doing.”

    Anyone that puts up numbers close to Ryan Howard’s isn’t going to have a hard time finding a regular job in the majors. If the M’s had Rookie of the Year, 2 time All-Star, MVP talent (or something close to it) waiting in the minors Bavasi would have traded it away and Zduriencik would have called it up already.

  58. The Hamms Bear on July 16th, 2009 8:37 pm

    Argh. Beat me to it.

  59. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 9:42 pm

    “If anyone is 1 for 20 against anyone on my team, he is sitting out that day.”

    I was thinking that you could somewhat make up for the small sample size you see with a lot of hitter/pitcher matchups (i’m talking 50 to 100+ AB’s, not 20) by not paying attention to BA, but rather look at things like line drive rate, swing and miss rate, BAIP, and stuff like that and then compare it to the league averages against that pitcher.

    Because of the limited sample sizes you still probably couldn’t come up with a perfect model, but might be able to tell something about the top and bottom third people (in terms of success/failure), with probably too much room for error to say anything about the middle third. But in the end maybe could come up with a better model than most managers and what not use (batting average and HR against a given pitcher) Thoughts?

  60. bilbo27 on July 16th, 2009 9:51 pm

    Oh and I meant to add, also factor in the players normal numbers (line drive rate, BAIP, swing and miss, etc) against all pitchers. Could be crap, but just something I’ve been musing over lately. It would be really nice for someone to come up with a good model (even if not perfect), to determine how good player X is against pitcher Y. The current model managers use of using things like batting average over 20 AB’s or whatever is so incredibly bad that just about anything you’d think would be an improvement. Again, thoughts?

  61. littlesongs on July 16th, 2009 9:54 pm

    IIRC, Niehaus picked it up from the nickname of some 1890’s ballplayer.

    Death to Flying Things was a nickname originally given to Robert Vavasour Ferguson. A short time later it was also bestowed on John Curtis Chapman. Both players had careers in the 19th century. Dave Niehaus referenced this bit of history when he first associated the term with Franklin Gutierrez.

  62. mln on July 16th, 2009 10:11 pm

    Interesting history about the nickname “Death to Flying Things.”

    But the question begs, who in the MLB should be dubbed “Life to Flying Things”?

  63. SeasonTix on July 16th, 2009 10:19 pm
  64. joser on July 16th, 2009 10:32 pm

    A funny comment about the Red Sox trying to dump Julio Lugo and the Mariners on the YFSF website:

    “hey, if the Mariners can trade Yuneski to the royals, anything is possible!”

    That’s one (just one) of the things that made the Yuni trade so ridiculous — if KC had waited, they could’ve gotten a Red Sox cast off for free. They still could, and he’d still be an upgrade over Betancourt (Lugo is -.3 WAR so far this year, but Yuni is -.8, which means Lugo is a one win upgrade over an entire season).

  65. JMHawkins on July 16th, 2009 10:42 pm

    Interesting about the Death To Flying Things nickname. Really doesn’t sound like a 19th Century phrase at all, but very cool.

  66. djw on July 17th, 2009 12:39 am

    f for instance, a batter whether it be a LH or a RH batter was let’s say 1 for 20 lifetime against someone like a Johan Santana or even a marginal pitcher like Paul Bird, that has to be worth something. No? If anyone is 1 for 20 against anyone on my team, he is sitting out that day.

    I thought Dave (or someone) did a post on this once, but maybe I read it somewhere else. At any rate, my understanding is that normal projections taking only handedness into account have far more predictive value than even the most extreme (ie, 1/20 or 12/20) pitcher-batter stats. Breadbaker is surely correct that a smart manager might think about matchups in a more subjective way, but the actual stats are beyond worthless.

  67. Marinerz51 on July 17th, 2009 1:08 am

    Mike Wilson at least deserves a shot to either prove or disprove him self. He at least would be an instant upgrade over anyone currantly on our bench. Also I’m not saying he will put up Ryan Howard numbers. I was just pointing out their simular career paths. As Howard didn’t make his big league debut till he was 25, Wilson is 26. Look at what Nelson Cruz is doing with the Rangers. You never know what you have until you actually test the product.

  68. Kazinski on July 17th, 2009 2:04 am

    The knock on Wilson is his defense. This teams outfield is built around defense, and hopefully the infield will get there too. Bringing in an all hit, no defense outfielder is the last thing we need. If we need to bring somebody up it should be Saunders, we need D to go with the O. And Saunders AAA .907 ops is probably more legitimate as Wilson’s .971ops in AA.

    If you want to make a case for Wilson, then he should learn to play first then he can compete with Shelton for the righthanded backup 1B/DH.

  69. msb on July 17th, 2009 9:27 am

    Dave Niehaus referenced this bit of history when he first associated the term with Franklin Gutierrez.

    Dave has used it (sparingly) in the past, as well, for other players.

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