David Schoenfield Nails It

Dave · December 29, 2009 at 9:04 am · Filed Under Mariners 

With ballots due in just a few days, it’s probably too late to convince any voters to add Edgar Martinez to the list of guys offered a ticket to Cooperstown, but David Schoenfield penned a tremendous look at why he’s deserving anyway. It’s well written, logical, and hard to argue with.

For me, the key point in the article is the comparison to relief pitchers. The biggest argument against Martinez’s induction is that he spent most of his career as a Designated Hitter, which makes him less than a complete player in the eyes of some voters. There are those who have stated outright that they don’t feel a DH belongs in the hall, because they added no value in the field, and were only contributing value in a portion of the game.

However, those same voters continue to send relief pitchers to Cooperstown. Goose Gossage, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, and Bruce Sutter all have plaques because of what they accomplished as specialist bullpen arms, pitching two to three innings at a time (at most), and racking up a counting statistic that requires them to only face three batters. Lee Smith got support from 45% of the voters a year ago. There is little doubt that active relievers such as Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman are going to end up in the Hall.

As Schoenfield notes, there is simply no way you can argue for a specialist pitcher and then exclude a specialist hitter. If you won’t put a DH in the Hall of Fame, you can’t put any closers in there either. And that’s not the standard that the Hall has set. Closers are in, so designated hitters have to be as well.

This is going to be the key issue on whether Edgar gets in or not. There’s no denying his contributions as a hitter. At the plate, he’s an inner circle Hall of Famer, one of the best right-handed hitters of all time. Those who would choose to not vote for him will do so on the basis of his status as a hitter-only. We should do as Schoenfield does here, and make them defend their stance in regards to relief pitchers as well. There’s no logical ground to stand on – once they admit that players who are great at a specific role are indeed induction worthy, then Edgar gets in.

Great job, David. We’ll be bringing this article back out of the archives every winter until Edgar gets elected.

Comments

75 Responses to “David Schoenfield Nails It”

  1. Tek Jansen on December 29th, 2009 9:12 am

    What is the over under on Edgar’s percentage? If he surpasses 30% in his first year, I am hopeful that he will eventually become elected. I hold no hope for a first ballot election.

  2. Dave on December 29th, 2009 9:16 am

    I think 30 percent sounds about right. There’s really no chance he gets elected this year, not with Larkin and Alomar as worthy first timers and holdovers like Dawson and Blyleven getting so much support.

    It’s going to take a while. We’re going to have to change a bunch of opinions about the DH, educate some people on just how good Edgar really was at the plate, and look to capitalize on a year where there aren’t many worthy candidates on the ballot.

  3. kennyb on December 29th, 2009 9:19 am

    I don’t see why a DH can’t make the Hall but a bad fielder (Manny anyone) can. Being a huge Edgar fan like the rest of you I know I am a little biased, but I don’t see how they can keep him out.

  4. robbbbbb on December 29th, 2009 9:22 am

    The award for Designated Hitter of the Year is named The Edgar Martinez Award. How the hell can you keep a guy out of the Hall when his performance was so good that there’s an award named after him?

  5. kennyb on December 29th, 2009 9:23 am

    Dave, looks like 2012 is that year. I don’t see anyone that will be newly eligible that year that should get in.
    Bernie Williams will get support thanks to playing in NY during their good times, but that’s the only name I see on the list.

  6. WildBeggar on December 29th, 2009 9:33 am

    This is one of the ridiculous arguments I get into with my non-Seattle baseball friends. Edgar deserves entry; I’m shocked people don’t see that.
    But they didn’t stand chanting EEEEED-GAARRR like I did, so they missed out.

  7. diderot on December 29th, 2009 9:48 am

    There is no question that Edgar is deserving…but at the same time, I don’t think he’ll ever come close. The problem is the emotional bias too many ‘purists’ still have with the DH.
    Disregarding anyone whose primary position was DH makes as much sense as the football Hall of Fame blocking anyone who didn’t play both offense and defense. For that matter, there is a kicker in the football Hall of Fame.

  8. Chris_From_Bothell on December 29th, 2009 9:48 am

    As Schoenfeld notes, there is simply no way you can argue for a specialist pitcher and then exclude a specialist hitter. If you won’t put a DH in the Hall of Fame, you can’t put any closers in there either. And that’s not the standard that the Hall has set. Closers are in, so designated hitters have to be as well.

    No, actually, that argument doesn’t hold up. There is no relief pitcher “rule”, no closer “rule”. There is a DH rule. Someone could have functioned effectively as a career relief pitcher before the 70s. Baseball doesn’t need a special rule to allow someone to be a reliever. One could make an argument for a given pitcher’s effectiveness over time within the context of baseball rules as they’ve been (modulo strike zone, mound height, dead ball era…).

    But designated hitters literally could not exist without a specific rule in place to allow them. So Edgar contributed as he did simply because of a rule. Even if people voting against Edgar are making noise about specialization, a vote against Edgar is not really a vote against his performance; it’s actually not about him at all. A vote against Edgar is a vote against the DH.

    And actually, robbbbbb:

    The award for Designated Hitter of the Year is named The Edgar Martinez Award. How the hell can you keep a guy out of the Hall when his performance was so good that there’s an award named after him?

    It is entirely likely that people will use that very argument to keep him out. “Edgar was only a DH, and he already has the DH award named after him, he doesn’t need anything else to acknowledge his contribution to the game.”

    I don’t agree with any of that, but I’ve seen it in other forums, sports talk radio, etc.

    Hell, even folks like Tony LaRussa believes it, last time I checked; he’s part of the whole rules discussion committee thing that Bud Selig pulled together, and LaRussa was quoted as saying he’d rather see no DH at all. I’d have to think he takes a dim view Edgar’s candidacy.

    Edgar fans shouldn’t be thinking that it’s a matter of making the math work to bring folks around to their point of view. This is unfortunately one of those bloody-minded traditionalist sorts of philosophical stances that isn’t grounded in anything logical.

    For what it’s worth, I know the statistical comparisons that make it stand, and the respect he had from his peers when he was in the game, and my first player jersey and player t-shirt was for #11, so believe me, I’m anxiously awaiting Edgar’s induction too.

  9. D Truth on December 29th, 2009 9:53 am

    Edgar, it seems, was always there — he was one of us, suffering through Bobby Ayala’s blown saves but delivering the big hits — most notably the 11th-inning double that scored Joey Cora and Griffey to beat the Yankees in the ’95 playoffs. All that hit did was help keep the Mariners in Seattle. (Many forget that the game before he had one of the greatest single-game playoff performances ever: 3-for-4 with a walk, a three-run homer and an eighth-inning grand slam off John Wetteland as the Mariners rallied from a 5-0 deficit.)

    I never forget the game before, because I was there. I was one of those screaming fans that shouted EDGAR, EDGAR, EDGAR, EDGAR forever as we all made our way out of the top deck of the Kingdome.

    I will never forget that night as long as I live. Thanks Edgar!

  10. droppedrod on December 29th, 2009 10:01 am

    I started playing fantasy baseball with a group of guys from my midwest grad school about ten years ago. For the first two years, I landed Edgar as a utility player at the point in the draft where other guys were taking backup shortstops. Then they caught on and Edgar went second or third round.

    My point? Edgar would have benefitted greatly, at least in fan awareness, from starting his career ten years later. If he were in his prime now, he may well be a household name thanks to the proliferation of sports coverage, a deeper statistical analysis on the part of both local and national media, and the large number of otherwise casual fans who get sucked into an office fantasy league.

    Lets hope the HoF voters eventually recognize how great he was as nothing would be better than seeing a career M like Edgar get into the hall.

  11. Tek Jansen on December 29th, 2009 10:06 am

    But designated hitters literally could not exist without a specific rule in place to allow them. So Edgar contributed as he did simply because of a rule. Even if people voting against Edgar are making noise about specialization, a vote against Edgar is not really a vote against his performance; it’s actually not about him at all. A vote against Edgar is a vote against the DH.

    Technically, baseball rules allow for “relief pitchers.” MLB allows pitchers to come in the late innings and pitch to one to three batters. Relief pitchers could not exist without a rule allowing for pitcher substitutions.

    In fact, all positions in baseball exist because of rules that allow them to exist.

  12. msb on December 29th, 2009 10:10 am

    It’s well written, logical, and hard to argue with.

    Yet, still they do.

    Avoid the comments if you want to stay sane.

  13. TumwaterMike on December 29th, 2009 10:12 am

    I think Edgar’s biggest obstacle is that the DH is a one league position. He’ll get very little support from NL writers.

  14. Coug1990 on December 29th, 2009 10:25 am

    Edgar will have a hard time with writers that don’t like the DH rule and with writers that think accumulated hits, RBI’s and HR’s are the only statistics that matter.

    They are like the GM’s that look only at traditional scouting to build their entire team.

    Hopefully, as the years go by, writers will become more enlightened to what is really important. When that happens, The Edgar will get into the Hall.

  15. Dennisss on December 29th, 2009 10:29 am

    First, thank you Tek Jansen. I was about to have a fit.

    Second, what if Edgar had been a better hitter than Babe Ruth, had hit more home runs than Barry Bonds, but was mostly a DH? Would he still be ineligible? With a little rational thought, you can dispense with the argument that a DH should not be in the Hall, and start considering whether Edgar did enough as a DH. Value is value. The idea that someone who provided less value but played the field — even badly — belongs in the Hall, but Edgar does not, is ridiculous.

  16. moyerLIVES on December 29th, 2009 10:42 am

    I thought that the Molitor comparison was just as compelling as the relief pitcher argument.

    If you remove all the ABs that Paul Molitor had as a DH, he probably doesn’t make the HoF. If voters are going to take those into account, then they should give equal weight to Edgar’s bid.

  17. Pete Livengood on December 29th, 2009 10:43 am

    Chris, the fact that the DH exists because of a rule and relief pitchers do not is really a red herring. The point is, within the rules of the game, both relief pitchers and DHs are allowed to contribute in specialized roles, and yet there is not nearly the clamor to exclude relief pitchers – even ones like Bruce Sutter, who were only very good for a relatively short period of time. And relief pitchers’ contributions are, IMO, much more specialized than that of DHs. Dave’s argument is just fine; jumping up and down and pointing to a “rule” you don’t like, while simultaneously electing closers whose role is even more specialized and whose contribution to winning is quite a bit less than Edgar’s – THAT is illogical.

    I also think it is appropriate in this thread to point to a couple of other articles that make good arguments for Edgar’s HoF case. One is Shannon Drayer’s recent post, citing Tony Blengino’s own analysis among other things, to pint out that (for instance) Edgar provided more offensive value in 12 years than Pete Rose did in 22. Here’s another pretty good article promoting Edgar’s candidacy. And here’s Tango’s analysis of players born between 1961 and 1970 (and arguing, as he has consistently, that Edgar belongs in the HoF).

    Another gem that I am just beginning to see cited in Edgar’s favor is Rally’s Historical WAR database. As the article linked above points out, Edgar’s 67.2 career WAR places him smack in the middle of a bunch of HoF players – and this is after WAR has accounted for defense (or lack thereof), baserunning, GIDP, and other perceived weaknesses in Edgar’s case:

    “Edgar is surrounded by Tony Gwynn (HOFamer), Jesse Burkett (HOFamer), Bobby Grich, Carlton Fisk (HOFamer), Duke Snider (HOFamer) – Martinez here – Larry Walker, Alan Trammell, and Eddie Murray (HOFamer).

    “Of the position players ahead of Edgar in career WAR, only the following ones aren’t in the Hall and are eligible: Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker, and Bobby Grich, That’s it. Jeff Bagwell will be an interesting case (79.9 WAR), but everyone else who isn’t eligible yet but will be should get in (Bonds, A-Rod, Griffey, Frank Thomas, Chipper Jones, Barry Larkin).”

    And, BTW, Tango did a handy post on the odds of getting in the HoF depending on where a player finds himself on the Historical WAR leaderboard. Players in the 60s (remember, Edgar is at nearly 70) have, historically, a nearly 60% chance of being elected. Players with 70 or more ==> 90%.

    I’ve never been to Cooperstown, but the day Edgar is elected is the day I will book my tickets.

  18. Paul B on December 29th, 2009 10:44 am

    Many (most?) of the voters don’t understand the concept of WAR. Most of them seem to be mired in the 1960′s or something.

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that any player with a zero or negative WAR for fielding (think of a poor fielding firstbaseman) is no different than a pure DH (and Edgar wasn’t a pure DH, but just saying) in that the HOF vote would be based completely on offensive contributions.

    Certainly there have been votes for HOF players that had zero or even negative contributions in the field. Even though we didn’t have good fielding stats back when a, say, Orlando Cepeda or a Hack Wilson or a Harmon Killebrew played.

  19. Seminaryhill on December 29th, 2009 10:52 am

    It is going to take a great deal of PR to get Edgar in. That being said, I think Edgar’s chances could be enhanced by the Mariner’s successes over the next few years. During playoff baseball, there is a lot of time to discuss HOF candidates!

  20. The Ancient Mariner on December 29th, 2009 10:54 am

    I’m with Paul B. I think Schoenfeld is right to highlight the specialist-specialist comparison, but I think it’s also important to hit the fielding-value issue head-on and harder, in two ways. First, drive home the point that Gar was a good 3B before the injuries (which makes the comparison to Molitor particularly relevant); he did actually have value in the field over his career. Second, make the argument strongly that for folks like Kiner, Killebrew and Ted Williams, the fact that they wore a glove didn’t make them more valuable, but rather less. We have already elected players, as Paul says, who would be DHs if they were playing in the current American League, and who would have been more valuable that way. If we can elect players whose fielding hurt their teams, there is absolutely no reason not to elect a DH, if he’s a good enough hitter.

  21. Pete Livengood on December 29th, 2009 10:55 am

    And Paul, that is exactly the reason I pointed to the Historical WAR database – it takes into account those who had great defensive contributions, as well as those who had neutral or negative contributions. You are right, though, about most voters not understanding the concept of WAR. Still, if we don’t cite to it, we cannot persuade them to learn….

    And yes, you are right about the negative defensive contributions of certain players. A contemporary of Edgar’s who will probably be a first-ballot HoF’er, Frank Thomas, comes to mind.

  22. robbbbbb on December 29th, 2009 10:58 am

    It is entirely likely that people will use that very argument to keep him out. “Edgar was only a DH, and he already has the DH award named after him, he doesn’t need anything else to acknowledge his contribution to the game.”

    I understand that you’re advancing an argument you’ve heard others make, but this one is really easily dispensed with:

    The Rookie of the Year Award is called the Jackie Robinson Award. Does that mean Jackie shouldn’t be in the Hall, too?

    Oh, and for a statistical look at this year’s HoF ballot, I highly recommend this article. Those graphs are nifty, once you figure out what they’re saying.

  23. Seattleguy527 on December 29th, 2009 11:03 am

    As an M’s fan I would love to see Edgar make the HOF, but I think he will have a hard time based on his career numbers. He’s one of the best hitters I’ve ever seen, but I think most of the HOF voters base their votes on the hard numbers and not much else.

    I think the biggest hindrance for Edgar, and something nobody has mentioned, is that Edgar didn’t play his first full season in the bigs until he was 27. Had he played his first full season at 22 or 23 his numbers would be a lot better.

    While I agree that Edgar being a DH is going to cause some bias, I think getting such a late start in the bigs is what hurts him more than anything.

  24. Paul B on December 29th, 2009 11:05 am

    And Paul, that is exactly the reason I pointed to the Historical WAR database – it takes into account those who had great defensive contributions, as well as those who had neutral or negative contributions

    Agreed, I should have said that. I think I wrote my post before seeing yours, but I did follow the link to the Historical WAR and found it interesting. Thanks.

  25. TomG on December 29th, 2009 11:09 am

    Baseball doesn’t need a special rule to allow someone to be a reliever

    This is true, however, baseball did adopt a rule that essentially defined a “closer”, i.e. the save statistic. And that was only adopted a scant four years before the DH.

  26. TumwaterMike on December 29th, 2009 11:09 am

    A starting pitcher who pitches say 200 innings a year but doesn’t bat only contributes 50% of the time in a game as he never comes to the plate. I don’t no how that breaks down into the actual impact he has in terms of game time, but its less then a poaition player. A DH gets up 4-5 times a game but doesn’t play the field. Again I don’t know how that breaks down into the actual impact a DH has on a game. Is there anyone out there that is smart enough to break this all down and show the precentage of potential impact each position would have throughout the game?

  27. hub on December 29th, 2009 11:41 am

    Not only is Edgar Hall-Worthy; but he is the best single argument FOR the inclusion of the DH in MLB.

  28. georgmi on December 29th, 2009 11:49 am

    Is there anyone out there that is smart enough to break this all down and show the precentage of potential impact each position would have throughout the game?

    That’s why WAR has a positional adjustment.

  29. et_blankenship on December 29th, 2009 12:07 pm

    Philosophically speaking, a DH is not a specialist.

  30. PackBob on December 29th, 2009 12:18 pm

    Also, look at it from the other direction. What is the purpose of keeping one of the best right-handed hitters to ever play the game out of the HOF? Not including Edgar lessens the credibility of the HOF; it does not increase credibility by arbitrarily excluding DH.

    Edgar’s contributions to his team were enormous. The Ms would not have come close to the playoffs in 1995 without his monster year, and it’s likely Seattle wouldn’t have a baseball team now.

  31. illdonk on December 29th, 2009 12:18 pm

    Edgar Martinez isn’t a referendum on whether a DH should be in the Hall of Fame. I think the real hindrance for his candidacy is that Edgar lacks any other contributions besides his hitting statistics that could help his cause.

    The other players in terms of DHs or negative fielding contributions (Molitor/Manny/Frank Thomas) not only passed those magic hitting numbers as well as won championships and individual awards (MVPs and World Series MVPs). Since Edgar lacks the big career hitting totals, it would help his cause if he had something, anything else in his favor.

  32. Joe C on December 29th, 2009 12:19 pm

    This sounds a lot like the Ray Guy argument as a punter.

  33. TumwaterMike on December 29th, 2009 12:24 pm

    The argument I’m hoping to make in Edgar’s favor is if we know the potential of the % that Edgar, as a DH, has on a game, and then figure out the % he was successful in impacting a game. If we compare that to other HOFers, I wonder where Edgar stands.

  34. Breadbaker on December 29th, 2009 12:43 pm

    The one argument I had with the Schoenfeld article was his ridiculous concession that Edgar wasn’t in some sense “famous.” How do you consistently get elected to the All Star team, particularly when your position is only on the ballot in years when the game is in AL parks, if you’re not famous? There’s a guy with the same first name who was in a couple of World Series but in the baseball community Edgar goes by his first name. Yes, he didn’t date Madonna and he didn’t play in a major media center, but he was famous enough for the Hall of Fame, thank you.

  35. TomG on December 29th, 2009 1:13 pm

    Philosophically speaking, a DH is not a specialist

    Philosophically speaking, every baseball player is a specialist. Well, except for Willie Bloomquist, although he did specialize in grit, hustle, and determination.

  36. diderot on December 29th, 2009 1:22 pm

    Edgar Martinez isn’t a referendum on whether a DH should be in the Hall of Fame

    Actually, I think just the opposite–he is 100% a referendum on the DH.

    What is the purpose of keeping one of the best right-handed hitters to ever play the game out of the HOF?

    To allow the Flat Earthers to continue to believe that there was a ‘good old days’ when baseball was pure. It’s the same mentality that forces pitchers to hit in spring training games (in NL parks) when clearly much more benefit to the team could be derived by giving more hitters ABs.

    The single most important statistic at play here is how many of the voters still resent the DH. Until their number dwindles, Edgar’s chances are nil.

  37. SeasonTix on December 29th, 2009 1:25 pm

    I didn’t think Edgar had a realistic chance of getting into the HOF due to the hatred many baseball writers have for the DH position.

    Now that a few national baseball writers are jumping on the Edgar HOF bandwagon, I have hope.

    Go Edgar !!

  38. Moonwalk Graham on December 29th, 2009 1:28 pm

    There is a very easy way to defeat the anti-DH argument. its simple. American league pitchers dont hit.

    Boom.

    So they dont play both parts of the game. So any american league pitchers, or a pitcher who had majority of his success in American league, like say… Roger Clemons? He spent a few years in Houston, and not even applying the steroid issue, he didnt play the whole aspect of the game, i.e. Edgar not playing the field.

    so Any american league pitcher, post DH rule, will not logically ever be able to be inducted.

  39. jwgrandsalami on December 29th, 2009 1:46 pm

    Very compelling arguments made by Schoenfield, but it would do Edgar’s HOF chances a lot more good if someone outside the Pacific Northwest was to write such a piece. For a lot of people, Schoenfield’s piece will be seen as biased because he’s from Seattle and watched Edgar play most, if not all, of his career.

  40. LB on December 29th, 2009 1:57 pm

    There is a very easy way to defeat the anti-DH argument. its simple. American league pitchers dont hit.

    And NL pitchers do? Have you ever watched an NL game?

  41. Pete Livengood on December 29th, 2009 2:05 pm

    I thought about letting illdonk’s comments pass (and it isn’t even clear that he is endorsing the traditional counting stats method of evaluation – or as he calls them, “magic hitting numbers” – so much as he is resigning himself to their widespread use, but I couldn’t resist point this out. And I’ll point to yet another recent Tango post.

    Getting on base MATTERS. And Edgar did that very, very, very well.

  42. NorthofWrigleyField on December 29th, 2009 2:23 pm

    Since Edgar lacks the big career hitting totals, it would help his cause if he had something, anything else in his favor.

    Like the Roberto Clemente Award, many all-star appearances even when the game was in non-DH parks, post-season dominance and playing his whole career for one team and being a constant face of a franchise and force in the community.

    His resume and qualifications are pretty freaking long.

  43. Pete Livengood on December 29th, 2009 2:23 pm

    BTW, my first post, noting that Tango has always supported Edgar’s HoF candidacy, should probably have included a link to this post/thread, which is devoted to Edgar’s HoF candidacy. Tango’s parting shot: “To deny Edgar the HoF is to admit ignorance.” Strong words.

  44. Breadbaker on December 29th, 2009 3:40 pm

    It should also be added that Edgar still holds a number of ALDS records. He has some ALCS records, too, but unfortunately they’re not positive ones. But in the first round, he was as dominant as any player ever.

  45. Toddk on December 29th, 2009 3:49 pm

    The argument I’m hoping to make in Edgar’s favor is if we know the potential of the % that Edgar, as a DH, has on a game, and then figure out the % he was successful in impacting a game. If we compare that to other HOFers, I wonder where Edgar stands.

    The positional adjustment in WAR takes this into account. If you go to the link in Pete Livengood’s first post in this thread, you can see exactly what you are asking for.

  46. dawsonct on December 29th, 2009 4:37 pm

    If there had been no DH rule, ‘Gar would have been a mediocre (defense) 1B who could hit like, well, Edgar Martinez. Any argument that he wouldn’t have been in the game without the DH rule is fallacious.
    He belongs. It will be awhile, but he WILL get into the HOF someday.

  47. scott19 on December 29th, 2009 8:59 pm

    Philosophically speaking, every baseball player is a specialist. Well, except for Willie Bloomquist, although he did specialize in grit, hustle, and determination.

    Although I might also add Russ Davis to that list…since I’m still at a loss after all these years to figure out what exactly he specialized in.

    As for ‘Gar, I think he’ll make it in as well…and hopefully sooner rather than later. I can’t wait to see that #11 jersey hanging from the rafters of Safeco. :)

  48. joser on December 29th, 2009 9:35 pm

    I made a similar argument over at Fangraphs when the point was raised there.

    There was a time when a pitcher was expected to do more than pitch — he was 1/9th of the lineup, afterall, and was expected to do his part with the bat. Babe Ruth certainly wouldn’t have accepted the idea of a pitcher sitting out his turn at the plate. But since the advent of the DH that’s exactly what AL pitchers have been doing (and, other than the odd interleague game and World Series appearance, continue to do). Yet somehow no one sees that as diminishing their value or legitimacy. So if we don’t discredit pitchers because they don’t have to hit, why do we look askance at the player who makes that possible? If you have a problem with the very existence of the DH, that’s fine — but I don’t see why you should allow that philosophical argument to fester into a bigotry directed at the players who man the position.

    Babe Ruth (in his prime) may have been the benchmark for the all-around player (though I have my doubts about his UZR), but that was long time ago; since then, baseball has been getting more and more specialized whether people like it or not. The DH may be the most extreme example in the sense that it’s an actual position, but how many bullpen arms could really start a game? And now the bullpen itself is a grab-bag of specialties: LOOGies and setup men and closers, oh my.

    And yet none of them bear a black mark of shame that forever bars them from the HOF. If Eckersley was never asked to pitch a complete game, and was never expected to do much of anything with his bat, how is that fundamentally different from a guy who was only expected to hit well, and did? And that’s putting aside the fact this particular hitter did do an adequate job in the field in his early years, not to mention all the sluggers who nominally fielded a position but provided virtually all of their value with their bats.

    Pitchers are evaluated by pitching stats; nobody looks at their batting averages when evaluating their candidacy for the HOF. Edgar was a designated hitter, so it’s by hitting stats he should be judged.

    BTW, you can look at the case the team made and sent to the actual HOF voters here (though the fact they felt they had to explain what OPS+ is suggests the kind of hill we’re climbing here).

  49. WordPlaze on December 29th, 2009 11:43 pm

    I must respectfully disagree. The comparison of relief pitchers to DH’s is a logical fallacy. Relief pitchers exist in both leagues. Closers exist in both leagues. Designated Hitters do not.

    A better argument for Edgar’s induction is that Paul Molitor is there. If I remember correctly, more than half of Molitor’s plate appearances came as a DH, and his injury plagued career was significantly lengthened by DHing.

  50. illdonk on December 29th, 2009 11:50 pm

    For everybody who is convinced that Edgar not being elected could only be because of anti-DH bias: would you be willing to place a wager on Frank Thomas’s election in a few years?

  51. Toddk on December 30th, 2009 8:41 am

    Although I might also add Russ Davis to that list…since I’m still at a loss after all these years to figure out what exactly he specialized in.

    Dancing

  52. dawsonct on December 30th, 2009 8:46 am

    Good point (12/29, 11:09 A.M.) TumwaterMike, not only do AL pitchers participate in only 50% of the game, as only 20% of the rotation an AL starting pitcher really only is on the field for the start of 10% of any team’s games. Not exactly Ripkenian numbers.

    Until ‘Gar is in, all post 1970 AL pitchers should be excluded. Period.

  53. dawsonct on December 30th, 2009 8:57 am

    Joser, I think using Dennis Eckersley as an example of specialization among pitchers is a bad idea. He may very well have made it into the HOF even if he had remained a SP all his career.

  54. Mike Snow on December 30th, 2009 9:15 am

    Come on – Eckersley purely as a starter was headed for maybe 250 wins, a 3.60 career ERA, and 2,000 strikeouts (with my apologies for resorting to the default statistics that still dominate Hall of Fame voting). And that’s a best-case scenario. Wipe out his run as a closer, and as an integral part of very successful Oakland squads, and there’s nothing left to distinguish him as a candidate. He’d be well back in a line that includes not just Blyleven, but Tommy John, Jack Morris, and assorted other other good but not historically great pitchers.

  55. dawsonct on December 30th, 2009 9:25 am

    Though he appeared in a few hundred MORE games as a DH, I think Frank Thomas is viewed by many as a 1B.
    He can’t hold Edgar’s jockstrap, though. Inside pitches that had Big Frank bailing out of the box, looking indignantly at the ump and the catcher than glaring at the pitcher, Edgar would have turned on and hit it out.
    EG: 1997 Cleveland AS Game, Greg Maddux pitching, the reaction in the dugout afterwards by Sandy Alomar.
    The inside pitches Edgar COULDN’T hit, hit Edgar.

  56. dawsonct on December 30th, 2009 9:34 am

    Agreed, Mike. It would have been close, but my point was more that Eck was a damned good SP before he became a GREAT closer. Not a huge Eck fan (still hold him responsible for every successful close he had against the M’s), but I felt Joser was selling him short as SIMPLY a closer. He had a no-hitter as a SP; hard to do that on luck alone.

    He was the Edgar Martinez of closers.

  57. Evan on December 30th, 2009 10:00 am

    If you want something strictly analogous to the rule-change creating the DH, then why not look at AL pitchers post 1970?

    Since the DH rule, AL pithers don’t hit. Does that not render them equally ineligible?

  58. Mike Snow on December 30th, 2009 10:13 am

    By not batting, AL pitchers don’t detract from their team’s offense. It stands to reason that they should be given extra consideration for the value they manage not to subtract this way. That would balance out the penalty being imposed on the DHs for their failure to add value by playing the field.

  59. GarForever on December 30th, 2009 10:17 am

    1. Joser, thanks and kudos for the link to the case the M’s sent to the BBWAA. Despite my obvious bias, it convinced me even further that Tango is right: a vote to deny Edgar is a demonstration of ignorance.

    2. Schoenfield has done a great job of making those who would vote for closers and Paul Molitor (who was, as he notes, a great player and deserving) defend their logic. Having spent time in a previous life as a sportswriter, though, I fear that trying to persuade those with a (stupid) philosophical bias that they’re wrong is an uphill battle. I even worked on a desk with guys who were pretty rational by the standards of the industry, and at times is was still like the Family Guy scene where a man tries to argue with a mule.

    3. The most persuasive case for such people is probably not to be made (sadly) on things such as WAR and OPS+, which they don’t understand and have no desire to, but rather the case made at the top of page 2 of the M’s presentation, and you can even add to that an additional wrinkle: six guys eligible for the Hall of Fame had a career batting average over .300, OPS over .400, SLG over .500 with 300+ HR, 500+ doubles, and more than 1,200 RBI. Edgar is one. The other five: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, and Rogers Hornsby, the last of whom is the only other RH hitter in the bunch. These are the kinds of “count stats” the DH-haters can surely get their heads wrapped around at this point.

    4. If being a DH allows one not to be a “complete” player” (which necessarily implies that someone who is somehow deficient could conceivably do it), why is it there are so few consistent good ones? Why, 36 years after the institution of the rule, do we just now have someone good enough playing primarily as a DH as a legitimate HoF candidate? And why do so many active players who could clearly stand to be in the dugout while the rest of their team is in the field refuse to DH? Because it ain’t as easy as it looks.

    PS — Tony LaRussa pisses me off. If he were managing in the AL he would be one of the staunchest defenders of the DH. I’d call him a hypocrite if I didn’t have so much respect for him as the man who invented baseball.

  60. illdonk on December 30th, 2009 12:11 pm

    First, I would love to see Edgar Martinez in the Hall of Fame, and if he does make it (or even if he doesn’t) I would highly recommend that anybody who can attend the ceremony in Cooperstown. I went to four of them, and it’s a wonderful day.

    That being said, this argument seems to have taken a strange turn, going from saying that Edgar shouldn’t be penalized for being primarily a Designated Hitter, to somehow arguing that the DH is a specialized position in line with being a closer, and that being a consistently great DH is somehow a Hall of Fame qualification.

    Since people keep making the comparison, here’s the difference between a closer and a DH: the closer role is specific and obvious, with the ball in his hand at the climax of the game. If he succeeds, the team wins; if he fails, they lose. It’s almost certainly somewhat artificial and overrated, but having watched many Yankees and Mariners games over the past 20 years, I can’t argue it’s imaginary.

    The DH role is defined only by what the player does not do. It is not specialized. The player is specialized; the role is not. The DH bats like any other hitter on the team; the difference is that the player makes no defensive contribution. The Mariners aren’t grooming any AA players to someday take over the DH position, the way they might look to groom a young reliever to be the closer. I love the DH (I grew up watching Phillies pitchers strike out four times a game), but when we say that a player should be a DH, we don’t mean it as a compliment. We mean that he can’t contribute in a significant part of the game the way other hitters can.

    In fact, I don’t understand Schoenfield’s argument. He points out that no player who was primarily a DH has ever been elected, as if this somehow proved anti-DH bias as opposed to the fact that Edgar is the first reasonable candidate to fit this qualification. He then immediately brings up Paul Molitor as if it contradicts the voters’ anti-DH bias, rather than the possibility that there’s no anti-DH bias at all. Frank Thomas will be elected on the first ballot (with an OPS 40 points higher than Edgar, which I suppose allows him to hold Edgar’s jock).

    Edgar was an incredible hitter. As a Mariner fan, I hope his OPS ability will gain him significant support. There are significant negatives, though. He made no defensive contribution for two-thirds of his career. Even with this, his career was short for a Hall of Famer (to counter this argument, Schoenfield compares him to a dozen players who still had longer careers, including several who missed time for WWII), with relatively low career totals. He did not win an MVP award or do well in the voting. He never won a championship or even a pennant; in fact, his might have been the most underachieving team in history, and his terrible ALCS performances have to be considered a big part of this. I think these are reasonable points.

  61. DMZ on December 30th, 2009 12:31 pm

    here’s the difference between a closer and a DH: the closer role is specific and obvious, with the ball in his hand at the climax of the game.

    The climax of the game is not coming in with a three run lead in the ninth. Beyond which, anyone on the pitching staff can come out for those last outs. It’s the pinch-hitter of the pitching staff.

    If we’re going to recognize players for their ability to play roles regardless of their actual contributions to the team, then why not elect lesser pitchers for being really, really good #2 pitchers for long periods of time? It’s just as artificial a created role. Mark McLemore should be elected as the greatest super-sub. Dave Roberts, Hall of Fame pinch-runner.

    I cannot see how you can argue that the closer is “specific and obvious” when the DH occupies a lineup position announced at the start of the game, in a position with limitations specifically outlined in the rulebook. Teams don’t announce that the starter is Joe Schmucko and the 9th inning pitcher will be Bob Closer and face penalties if they don’t pitch Bob.

    And if you think Frank Thomas is a lock on the first ballot after what we’ve seen to other power hitters of the same era, well… I don’t know what to tell you. Thomas and Edgar have similar problems, though much different career selling points.

  62. Pete Livengood on December 30th, 2009 1:08 pm

    illdonk – the argument has NOT turned into one where “the DH is a specialized position in line with being a closer” and nobody is saying that excelling as a DH is the qualification for HoF induction. Rather, the qualification is excellence, without regard to position (except insofar as the way a player played that position contributed to a player’s excellence, which for a DH doesn’t apply, or at least only applies to his offense). And, the argument with respect to closers is that the same voters who have been willing to elect closers, who occupy a more limited role with even less contribution to winning than DHs do, while shunning DHs like Edgar with little to no regard for his excellence, simply because he was a DH and therefore played some limited, less than full, role. That is the only reasons closers have even been brought up in this discussion – glorifying the limited role of the closer with seveal HoF inductions, while arguing that the best DH of all time should not be considered simply because he was a DH (while his numbers, if an exactly-neutral contributing 1B, for instance, would likely get him strong first-ballot consideration) makes exactly ZERO sense.

  63. illdonk on December 30th, 2009 1:56 pm

    W/R/T Frank Thomas, players with 500 HRs, .300 average, two MVPs and no steroid issues are fairly safe bets, though anything can happen, of course.

    the same voters who have been willing to elect closers, who occupy a more limited role with even less contribution to winning than DHs do, while shunning DHs like Edgar with little to no regard for his excellence

    Voters haven’t shunned DHs while electing closers. Edgar is the first majority DH up for consideration. We should probably wait for the actual voting and explanatory arguments before we assume what happens. [long link]

  64. DMZ on December 30th, 2009 3:01 pm

    w/r/t Thomas, though, is a guy who played a terrible, just absolutely what-is-this-leather-thing-on-my-glove-style 1B and then spent most of his career at DH should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, when Edgar’s the subject of controversy over whether his career, which has a good initial defensive batch of seasons, should be discounted for his time at DH.

    Edgar is the first majority DH up for consideration.

    Molitor played 1,174 games at DH. Second-most frequent position was 3B, at 791 games appeared. In terms of fielding:DHing, it’s barely fielding.

  65. Pete Livengood on December 30th, 2009 3:25 pm

    illdonk, I hope you are right that the voters have not made up their minds (as many casual fans have) in a way that is biased against DHs. I agree that Edgar is one of the first tests of this, even though others (Molitor, as Derek points out, though he played enouogh in the field that voters could “hook” onto that in a way that Edgar’s ~600 games played at 3B/1B apparently doesn’t allow; Baines, though he isn’t nearly the player Edgar was; even Rice played a significant part of his career at DH though was never thought of as a DH, much as Frank Thomas will not be even though he really is).

    I do think that there is already strong evidence that Edgar’s role as a DH is a significant hurdle for his candidacy. Larry Stone has written countless articles over the last ten years, surveying voters w/r/t Edgar’s HoF candidacy, and it is always mentioned prmoninently as a reason why a significant portion of voters will not vote for Edgar. Ignoring that, and saying “you can’t criticize voters for doing something they haven’t done yet” doesn’t wash for me.

    Edgar will be lucky to get 25% of the vote on his first ballot attempt, and it is a shame, and IMO indefensible, that he doesn’t get something closer to double that, at least. And the DH rule (and people’s opinions and perceptions of it), rather than anything Edgar did or didn’t do, will be the single biggest reason for that.

  66. illdonk on December 30th, 2009 3:34 pm

    If Frank Thomas had Edgar’s stats, he’d be facing some of the same questions about defense. Thomas was a better hitter (I mean, if you want to talk about OBP…) with two MVPs. And I’d argue that even playing a subpar defense allows for some important flexibility to the team.

    Paul Molitor played more games in the field than as DH. He actually played decent chunks at every position other than catcher.

  67. illdonk on December 30th, 2009 3:39 pm

    Correction: I’ve been wrong in saying that Edgar is the first majority DH to be considered for the Hall. Harold Baines would obviously qualify.

  68. DMZ on December 30th, 2009 3:40 pm

    But that’s the thing. He’s a better hitter and such a wretched fielder it wipes out a lot of the value of his hitting in his 1B years, where Edgar’s hitting stats at 3B were pretty great and he played good defense at a more valuable position.

    Why does the advantage in value go to Thomas automatically?

    I think, of course, that this points out one of the very real problems of the HoF voting, that offensive milestones are these obvious, easy-to-evaluate marks, while defense only seems to enter the conversation if they were amazingly stellar (ie, Ozzie)

  69. illdonk on December 30th, 2009 4:00 pm

    I think it becomes a sort of value discussion: can a subpar defensive player still be said to be contributing value defensively, in comparison to a DH?

    I think he can. It’s somewhat laughable to discuss Manny Ramirez’s defensive value, but his being out in LF did allow David Ortiz to bat every day, a huge factor in two championships. I don’t think we can give Manny credit defensively, exactly, but there was definite value in that flexibility Boston had.

    As for Frank Thomas, he was simply a better hitter than Edgar. 200 more HR. A career OPS 40 points higher, leading the league four times to Edgar’s one. I’m not sure how much value we can wipe out for his defensive failings that would bring him in line with Edgar. If you could only pick one, who would you go with?

  70. DMZ on December 30th, 2009 4:58 pm

    There’s the rub, though: you have two absolutely horrible defenders. Does the one that blunders around in the field that day get credit for being at least not hypothetically as bad as the one that happens to DH, while the one that DH is penalized even more? What if it’s a good defensive player getting the “half-day” off, as when Ichiro infrequently does? Do you dock him that day for being the worst defensive player on the team?

    At some point, no matter what penalty you decide you’re going to apply to being a DH compared to the value of being even awful anywhere else, you have to evaluate candidates using it. What I want from people who say that a DH is worth less than a bad fielder is an answer to “how much?”

    Because at that point we can at least have a discussion. Right now it’s just a hand-waving thing, where Molitor is in but Edgar somehow is not.

    I don’t really care so much if Thomas was a better hitter in raw terms, for the sake of this argument: he played nearly 1,000 games at first over his career and was a butcher. Edgar was (checking) 563 at third (Thomas was 971 at first) and certainly at the start he was good. What do you spot him for that, 10, 20 runs?

    And the 200 more HR thing.. I don’t care. Just rate stats: Edgar’s way ahead on career batting average, they’re 21 and 22 in career OBP, and Thomas is way ahead on slugging. How much do you dock him for playing first over third when he played, though?

    Anyway. I think they’re in very much the same consideration set. Fortunately you’re not limited to voting for one or the other, so I’m not going to have to say anything I don’t want to.

    Fun point to consider, though: if you take one of those two guys out: Thomas wins the OBP title in 1995, or Edgar then wins the OBP title in 1997, depending on which is removed.

  71. Breadbaker on December 30th, 2009 10:52 pm

    I’ve always considered two things about the DH: one, if you have it and you have a player who can’t play the field (or, like in Edgar’s case, wouldn’t be able to maintain himself in the lineup if he had to take the field), then it’s a good thing to have that person at DH. There shouldn’t be a penalty for it because it’s an authorized position in the league. Two, it’s not as easy as it looks. As I recall, Frank Thomas was one of those who didn’t like to be a DH because he thought it diminished his hitting to not play the field, no matter how bad he was in the field. Edgar was a career DH in part because he actually could play the position well and consistently for many years. Not a whole lot of people could do that (and compare that to the closers, who are everywhere). Yes, there are teams who don’t have a fulltime DH because there are often roster reasons for that, but in many cases it’s because no one can play the position. So being able to perform consistently at DH is a skill, and the best ever at that skill should be honored.

  72. Pete Livengood on December 31st, 2009 2:09 pm

    Before I comment on the substance of your post, Breadbaker, I just want to say that I would be careful not to imply that Edgar would not have been able to stay in the line-up had he not been moved to DH. I am fearful that those in the anti-DH/anti-Edgar for HoF crowd would use that to say that, but for “playing only half the game” at DH he never would have been able to accumulate the statistics that he did. Apart from the fact that this argument is the (hypocritical) logical opposite from an argument this same crowd is eager to dismiss (that Edgar should be given some credit for what would have been productive MLB years languishing in AAA hitting .360+ while the immortal Jim Presley was producing three consecutive seasons with OPS+ in the 75-85 range), I just don’t think it is true.

    Although Edgar was famously hurt in both 1993 and 1994, both were the results of flukey injuries (as was the injury in 1996 when he collided with the late John Marzano while trying to catch a pop-up at 3B). The memory of Edgar as chronically injured is mostly due to things that happened very late in his career, in his late 30s and early 40s. Before that, he was mostly healthy. Do you know who holds the Mariners record for most consecutive games played? Yep, it’s Edgar (293, between June of 1994 and July of 1996, when the fluke play caused by Marzano being out of position ended his streak). From the point he became a regular in 1990, Edgar played in 83% of the Mariners games; if you don’t count 1993 and 1994′s fluke-injury-plagued seasons, he played in 88% of all Mariner games between 1990 and 2004, and if you look only at the 7-year stretch most consider Edgar’s peak (1995-2001), he played in over 91% of all of the Mariners’ games (remember, the Mariners only played 112 games in 1994 and 145 in 1995 due to the strike – 67 games smack dab in Edgar’s peak that he missed through no fault of his own).

    Rather than because Edgar was injury-prone, Edgar was moved to DH and kept there, as you say, because (a) the DH is a position that needed to be filled and Edgar filled it exceptionally well, and (b) because the Mariners had a good replacement for Edgar at 3B in Mike Blowers.

    And yes, you are absolutely right about DH being a difficult job, and one that even a great hitter like Frank Thomas could not do to the standard set by Edgar Martinez (more on that later). Thomas hit .275/.394/.505 as a DH in nearly as many games and PA as a DH as Edgar (1310 games and 4678 PA for Thomas, to 1403 games and 6218 PA for Martinez). His OPS+ as a DH was 15% worse than his overall OPS+. In contrast, Edgar was really good at being a DH, hitting .314/.428/.532 career there, with an OPS+ 6% better there than his overall career OPS+. Even though they had a pretty similar number of GP and PA as DHs, Edgar outshone perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of his generation in that role, by a long-shot: significantly better AVG, OBP, SLG, well over 300 more hits, nearly 120 more 2B, nearly twice as many 3B, ~120 more RBI,~150 more runs, and nearly as many HR (243, to Thomas’ 269) as one of the most feared home run hitters of the era. If being a DH is so easy, why is it that a hitter as accomplished and widely-heralded as Frank Thomas saw such a steep dive in his production when asked to do it?

    I fully agree with your conclusion that Edgar’s ability to perform and perform well in the DH role provided more value and flexibility to the Mariners than the “ability” of guys like Manny and Ortiz to bumble around in the field and therefore allow both to be in the line-up did the Red Sox. That argument ignores the fact that Edgar could have fulfilled the same role Manny/Ortiz did – with a lot more defensive skill, even – had the Mariners been in the same roster position the Red Sox were. BUT THEY WEREN’T, and it makes no sense to hold that against him.

  73. WordPlaze on January 1st, 2010 12:13 pm

    I’m really happy to see the home team bias here – I would love to see Edgar in the Hall. Again, I must respectfully point out the inconsistencies in the remarks.

    This forum often points out that resources should not be spent on a DH, since pretty much anyone who can hit at AAA level can be one.

    Also, I don’t know how much stock you put in “The Baseball Reference”, which uses Bill James’ method of comparing players. Of the ten players rated most similar to Edgar, only Orlando Cepeda is in the Hall, and he is the TENTH most similar player, meaning he barely made the list.

    For Molitor, seven of the most similar players are in the HOF, with one more that might get in (Biggio).

    For Thomas, there are two similar players in the Hall, but with four that have a good shot.

    For Baines, its four, with one more possibility.

    Bill James assigns a zero value to the position of DH.

    At the risk of being flayed alive, I would like to suggest that Edgar is STATISTICALLY borderline, even if the Designated Hitter bias is tossed out. He has eight more hits than John Olerud, and two less than Bert Campaneris, and I don’t hear any clamoring for these two players in the Hall.

    RBI-wise, he is behind Dale Murphy and Paul Oneill and ahead of Bernie Williams and Zack Wheat (I have discounted Ivan Rodriguez, who has three more RBI’s than Edgar, since Rodriguez will probably play until he meets the mandatory retirement age of 68).

  74. Pete Livengood on January 1st, 2010 2:08 pm

    [own post now, thanks man]

  75. DMZ on January 1st, 2010 3:52 pm

    This forum often points out that resources should not be spent on a DH, since pretty much anyone who can hit at AAA level can be one.

    That’s not quite right.

    Our position, if I may speak for myself and Dave, is that you can very easily find a below-average DH every season. And from there, with some modest additional effort, you can find players who will do pretty well, or a way to use the DH to platoon guys, or figure something out along those lines.

    There’s no reason to ever spend on Carl Everett, then, or Jose Vidro, or (no baseball reason) Ken Griffey Jr. And many teams do: DH makes a lot of money relative to other positions. If you’re going to spend on the DH, the return needs to be better (and differently considered) than other positions.

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