Jose Lopez, Third Baseman?
Well, it didn’t take long, but we now have an actual story from spring training. When the team took the field for their first full workout today, Jose Lopez headed to third base, while Chone Figgins went to second. Obviously, it’s just one day of practice, but the team knew that this was going to get a lot of media coverage, given that it’s the first workout of the spring. If this was just a “wonder how Lopez handles the hot corner” curiosity, they could have done this a week from now at a minor league field with no one around. That they started off this way suggests that there’s more to this than just a casual experiment.
Geoff Baker gets some quotes from the involved parties.
Lopez:
“I’ll try to catch ground balls at third base and see what happens at spring training, play in a couple of games,” Lopez said. “If i like it, I like it. I’ll try.”
And if he doesn’t like it?
“Then I’ll go to the manager’s office and tell him I don’t like it.”
Lopez added: “If we like it, we talk. If we don’t like it, I’m going to play second base.”
Zduriencik:
“We’re going to look at it and see,” he said, as Lopez scooped grounders a few feet away. “There’s nothing etched in stone right now. We’re just looking to see what our different options are.”
The idea behind this is that Figgins has more range than Lopez, while Jose has a better arm and a body type more typical of a third baseman. When you look at the two of them, you’d certainly expect Figgins to be the 2B and Lopez to be the 3B.
However, I don’t know that appearance should override experience. In his career, Figgins has less than half a season of major league playing time at second base, and Lopez has a half dozen games at third base. Figgins has over 4,000 innings at third base, while Lopez has over 5,000 at second base. There is no way around the fact that the team would be surrendering quite a bit of experience, and the benefits that come from repetition. Lopez isn’t the rangiest guy in the world, but he knows how turn a double play. Figgins doesn’t have a cannon arm, but he’s learned how to charge a bunt. These things aren’t developed overnight.
Even if they commit to this alignment right out of the gate, there’s going to be adjustments to be made by both players. It’s pretty common for guys to move between second and third base, so this is one of the easier adjustments around, but there’s still an adjustment period. Even if both guys take well to the switch, I’m not sure how much of a positive impact it would actually have on the defense, once you factor in the learning curve.
And, then, there’s another factor. Dustin Ackley. The M’s have been thrilled with how quickly he’s taken to second base, and he’s the future at the position in Seattle. So, no matter how this switch goes, it’s a short term thing for Figgins. He’ll be back at third base in a year or so. Moving him to second for 2010, then moving him back to third for 2011… this all seems like a lot of movement for a very marginal gain, if any.
I can see why the M’s would want to take a look at this alignment. There are natural tendencies to think that this is a better use of of their particular skillsets, and had they been developed differently, it probably would be. But Figgins knows how to play third, Lopez knows how to play second, and throwing out that knowledge seems unnecessary to me.
We’ll see how this develops. Right now, this isn’t my favorite idea ever, but it’s still February, and there is a lot of time left to see how this plays out.
I choose to think of it as Wak trying to mess with us.
Showing other teams that the M’s favorite trade bait can play 3rd base too?
Probably not, but it’s a thought.
Whenever they get the podcasts up, in the 2:00 hour of B&S on 710, is a brief interview with Lopez and Drayer, and a sit-down with Mike Brumley, who coaches the infield.
[Go troll somewhere else]
Why in the world would the M’s ever consider using Lopez as the #2 shortstop when the common belief is that his range is questionable enough at second?
Given that shortstop is substantially more difficult than either, I’m not surprised he felt that way (and that’s not considering the actual experience Lopez had at shortstop, which was not particularly good).
Furthermore this still doesn’t change the fact that Figgins was told he would primarily be playing one position this season. The only thing that has changed is that instead of that position being third base, it might be second.
If nothing as changed as per Figgins playing only one position then maybe Lopez. If Bill Hall being traded signifies that the M’s ran the idea past Figgins, then maybe he’d be the #2 SS. If Hannahan looks good at SS then he’d probably be the best bet. My point was that it’s an open question and there are multiple possibilities. But experience does count.
Pros and cons. Awfully tough to evaluate whether one outweighs the other without having at least some sample size to work with… I imagine that’s what they’re trying to achieve.
Figgins is not going to be the #2 anything, any more than Ichiro is going to be the #2 CF.
I think this experiment is partly a real possibility, but it may partly also be to make spring training interesting for the two veteran players. And to get them and everyone else thinking in terms of flexibility and “team first” right from the start. In management terms: “team-building.”
When you accept all kinds of random facts as evidence for your position, just about anything can look like evidence for your position.
Wow. I didn’t see this coming and I don’t think I like it. It doesn’t make sense to move Figgins to second only to have him shift back to 3rd in a year or two. They must really not like Lopez at second base? And if that is the case why not spend some dough on Hudson or Felipe Lopez.
[Stop turning threads into a look at me attention fest.]
Speaking of Lopez, Drayer’s quote from him today is very notable:
It’s spring training. It’s time to try out these experiments. Yes, they know the media is watching — but it’s best to start these things sooner rather than later. They know Figgins can handle 3B and Lopez can handle 2B (well, at least he’s got experience there…) – shouldn’t take them too long to get in gear. But if they’re legitimately considering a swap, they better get a move on and start looking at things quickly.
This team seems to be built around versatility and a little depth, save for the SS position. I’m not going to read TOO much into it. Indeed it might well be a legitimate consideration and more than just an experiment. If it’s a bad idea, they’ll be able to sift that out — and better sooner rather than later.
Certainly nothing to panic over…
Wak and Z love versatility and I doubt this is anything other than seeing if Lopez has some chops at 3B if they need to move people around due to injuries. I’d be surprised if he starts the season anywhere other than 2B.
[good riddance]
It would be very shortsighted for Wak and Z to overlook a 2B-3B swap… It is nice to find out what might happen if X happens and Y occurs. The first day of spring training is as good of a day to find out as any.
Jose Lopez has experience at SS. It was a lot of VERY BAD experience. He sucks at SS. He will only play SS in a complete emergency. Just like Hannahan actually catching.
It’s not improbable that Wilson will lose some AB to injury. If 3B works out okay for Lopez, it may be a way to give Ackley some work at 2nd at the end of the year, while shifting Figgins to SS.
Don is the only “Wak” he’ll be seeing 50 times this year.
Lopez’ comment reminds me of that ridiculous stretch of plate appearances in 08 where he always took the first pitch. I’m hoping we don’t see more of that.
Lopez has walked right around 25 times a season over the course of his career. To get to 50 he’d have to double that rate. I’m skeptical, but hey, stranger things have happened.
I’m glad to hear him say that’s a goal of his. It’d make him a better player, as long as he can hold all of his other rates constant, or improve them in the process. One thing that is little-discussed is that tweaking one part of a player’s game has unforseen impacts on other parts. Trying to be more disciplined could screw up Lopez’s contact rates, and not in a good way. Y’know?
I’m not really sure if it’s a good thing. If his idea of walking is to take hittable strikes because he’s fixated on getting to ball four, that’s bad. On the other hand, if what he means is that he’s going to be a more disciplined hitter, then great! But there’s pretty much zero evidence he has the pitch recognition skills to be that kind of hitter.
The thing is, it combines the two things everyone questions about Figgins on defense– inexperience and a short arm. He has a grand total of 27 games at shortstop in his career. That’s way more improbable than this move.
The other aspect of this that isn’t ideal is that 2B generally exposes you to more dangerous situations & collisions. Figgins is going to be really vital to the offense, and losing him to an injury would be a big blow to the team. Figgins has been banged up a few times over the past several season (playing nearly all 3B and OF), while Lopez has missed hardly any games playing mostly 2B. Doesn’t strike me as worth the risk unless there is a big gain in net defense…
I for one like the idea. If it doesn’t work out it isn’t going to take long for either player to just slip back into their old position. Lopez has half a season turning the DP with Wilson so that won’t be a big issue.
Where the plusses come in is that Figgins and Lopez’s weakness at their current positions are reduced at their “new” positions. Range is less important at third than at second, arm strength is more important at third. Where the real test will come is whether Lopez field the bunt, and can he handle the hot line drive. And of course arm strength is less important than accuracy.
It may turn out that both players are more valuable in their new positions, and that would be a plus for the team, both in terms of Lopez’s trade value, and more wins.
Hi, guys. Not to further the derail, but please don’t reply to Leroy. Let’s take his “I’m taking my toys and going home” outburst as the blessing that it is.
I’m removing a couple of responses to him to try to keep this thread somewhat on topic; apologies for that, but we’re going to start working very hard to weed out some of the people who have no interest in contributing to productive discussion.
Wouldn’t the ideal situation be if Ackley could play short? I am pretty sure he played there in HS and maybe his freshman year of college. He seems like he’d have the athletitism, it would just be the arm, but once the arm fully recovers from Tommy John maybe it could work.
Jack Wilson is a lot closer to the end of his career than Figgins or Lopez.
Kazinski hit on something with the last point: sure seems like a move to add to Lopez’s trade value. Or, as I am hoping, to answer questions for a specific partner Z already has in mind.
The Figgins part of the move isn’t explained by this logic (it’s only one day of practice)…. but is anybody willing to offer speculation on teams that might be interested in seeing Lopez at third?
I don’t see how it could hurt. If it looks bad, they pull the plug. If it works, it works, and it makes Lopez even more attractive to other teams. We’ve got some good MI prospects coming (Triunfel, Ackley, Franklin). Hopefully Figgins, Wilson, and Lopez can hold down the fort until those three are ready, assuming they all pan out as expected.
But ricky, Ackley has a weak arm. You don’t want him SS/3B. I think the Figgins/Lopez swap is just for emergency flexibility. If they are seriously considering a permanent position swap, then there will be many problems coming out of this with little to gain.
To go along with Ackley’s weak arm, we also want him to come up as quickly as possible, as he can almost hit already at the major league level. Making him play possibly the hardest position on the diamond, (besides catcher) probably wouldn’t be a smart move for his progression. Second is a relativly easy position and he shouldn’t and hasn’t shown any problems at all.
Although seeing as Wilson hasn’t been the healthiest player the past few years, and Lopez is still young. I wouldn’t be surprised if the M’s did try him at short if Lopez improves and has a break out year this year.
Maybe third basemen are more in demand for trades or Jack thinks he can acquire a third baseman more easily to replace Lopez if he is traded. I’m sure there’s more method here, even if we can’t see it yet.
It’s the first day of spring training. Hanahan and Garko are taking reps as catchers, too. I wouldn’t read too much into this. Obviously the M’s want to know what they have, what their options will be if (when?) somebody gets hurt and if (when!) Ackley forces his way onto the team by torching the minor leagues. I suppose it’s possible they may eventually decide this is a more sensible alignment (did Lopez do a Silva and arrive in something other than “the best shape of his life”?) but this feels to me more like early spring experimentation by a team that values flexibility very highly.
It’s not necessarily weak — it was strong enough for the outfield before it needed to be surgically repaired. Assuming it is well recovered from that another year later, I don’t know that that is the primary consideration. Nevertheless, the point seems moot: the team clearly sees him as a 2B (or a 1B if all else fails); there’s been no hint of him playing any further to the left on the diamond.
With Figgins posting a 16.7 UZR in 154 games at third, and Lopez being pretty much average defensively at second, I can’t see any advantage in swapping them. Lopez is going to hit like Lopez, no matter where he plays. I hope this is just a quick look to see what the options are in a defensive pinch.
[appreciate the sentiment but don't want this to turn into a pro/con debate]
[nope]
Anyway, this seems right up Jack Z and Wak’s alley, and I wouldn’t make too much of it. It never hurts to know your 2B can slider over to 3B in a pinch, and vice versa, especially when you only have one backup infielder.
I think they are just looking to see what they have in their biggest FA signing. It would be really good to know what kind of 2B Figgins could be. Not so much for this year but for 2011 and beyond. Going into next off season it would be great to have flexibility with Ackley and Figgins in order to pursue the best player available at either 2B, 3B, or LF. For Lopez this might enhance his trade value.
This gets my vote. Dave mentioned a number of times this off season that one of the reasons for the lack of interest in Lopez among other teams was the glut of second basemen on the market. If he shows the ability to play 3rd training perhaps his stock rises.
How do you know that Lopez won’t post a superior UZR at 3rd? You look at some of the third basemen around the league, players that just don’t have the range of either Lopez or Figgins, like say Mike Lowell in 2008 (2009 he was hurt), put up comparable UZR numbers. Jose’s problem at 2nd is his range, could he improve to a +5 or more UZR at third, while Figgins maintains his UZR 2nd because his arm is less of a factor?
I’d like to find out, and the only way to do it is to check it out in spring training.
In the big picture this little experiment is a minor move. Just as putting Hannahan at catcher for some extra experience. But it shows us Jacks willingness to do anything and everything to help out the club. He does the things we as fans have always wondered why GM’s or Managers don’t do. He is smart, cunning, wise, savy, he does things that just makes sense.
I always wonder why ballplayers are so loathe to try out new things, and improve their versatility. Sure, if you are one of the best at your posistion, and you have been somewhere a long time, you do not want to move around. But that is not the case here.
Why wouldn’t Lopez “like it” at third? He makes himself so much more valuable. I imagine he is capable of being average over there, and if he put forth alot of effort, he may be even better then that. He can be a league average guy at 3 different posistions. That is saying alot, really. In the short-term he beomes a more valuable assest to the Mariners, but in the long-term he becomes so much more valuable in free-agency.
So why not “like it”?
When Jose Lopez said that he didn’t want to move to first base was he thinking of the value it would have on his next free agent contract or his comfort level?
It can make all the sense in the world for Raul Ibanez to DH, but he would rather play the field.
Before you give up on Lopez becoming more patient at the plate, look at Bradleys first few years. He had the same problem but is now considered at least by Seattle to be an OBP type of player.
Only issue I could see with this “try out” for Lopez is with Figgins at 2nd will Ackley get any chance to play 2nd this spring??
Players don’t generally “learn” patience at Lopez’s age. It can happen, but it’s the exception, not the rule.
and, to use Alex’ old line, Ackley doesn’t have his ‘man strength’ yet
Yeah, if it’s spring training, I really don’t think it’s a problem.
Too, you’re keeping your vets engaged by having them experiment (and that’s what many vets do in spring training–experiment, try out new things and expand their repertoire).
And, finally, you’re really establishing an organizational philosophy of flexibility by having your established vets do it or experiment.
Players don’t generally “learn†patience at Lopez’s age. It can happen, but it’s the exception, not the rule.
At least Lopez is young enough to still learn as he is just entering the peak years of his career.
Kazinski hit on something with the last point: sure seems like a move to add to Lopez’s trade value. Or, as I am hoping, to answer questions for a specific partner Z already has in mind.
Is anybody willing to offer speculation on teams that might be interested in seeing Lopez at third?
I speculate that the Ms have decided that Ackley is ready to step right in at 2B; and Lopez has become expendable.
They are playing Lopez at 3B because a potential trading partner has asked them to.
I wonder if the M’s are really auditioning Lopez at third base because a potential trade suitor asked them to. I could see that as a possibility since Lopez trade rumors have been rampant since 2008.
Lopez seems open to playing third base, but not quite as flexible as Figgins, who has said from the start he is willing to play anywhere so long as it helps the team win.
I have never been a fan of Lopez and anything that gets him out of a Mariner uniform is a good thing. I realize that he is probably our biggest bat, but his body language on the field is lazy and his plate discipline is non existent.
I speculate that the Ms have decided that Ackley is ready to step right in at 2B; and Lopez has become expendable.
They are playing Lopez at 3B because a potential trading partner has asked them to.
Dustin Ackley has played precisely ZERO innings of pro ball at 2B outside of Peoria, and here’s a relevant quote from someone…
“There’s a lot of bucks that stop right here, but you have to have the input and information. I’ve experienced this in my past. A good example, there was a situation with a club in the past where we brought a player to the big leagues where he had never played anywhere else but the position he was drafted at. Now all of a sudden, he gets to the big leagues, and you have a reasonably good big league club. So often, a young player gets to the big leagues, he’s trying to find his way. A starter ends up in the bullpen. An infielder might end up in the outfield. Vice versa. What ends up happening, if the first time a person gets put in a position he’s never played before, and it’s at the major league level, it’s tough. That’s not an easy thing to do. This game is tough enough to play up here, let alone you’re giving a kid an internship at the big league level.”
I have never been a fan of Lopez and anything that gets him out of a Mariner uniform is a good thing.
I’ve never been a fan of people who trash baseball players based on very cursory and shallow biases. Body language? Really?
Lopez is a league-average 2B (defense AND offense). That’s fine.
Personally, I’d like to see us all back off on trying to treat everything that the team does like the first move in a twelve-move-deep chess gambit.
Don’t get me wrong, Jack is awesome and very very good at what he does; but some, maybe even most, of the things the team does should be taken at face value. This move strikes me as one of them.