How Long Is Your Leash?
Not with the team – with Junior.
From all the threads we’ve had each time Junior has signed on with the club, I know there are two distinct camps about Griffey being here. For those who never wanted him to sign, or re-sign, feel free to skip the comments. We know your answer – you want Junior out as early as humanly possible. Noted, often many times over.
But for those of you who wanted him to come back for 2010, whether it was because you thought he might hit better after yet another knee surgery or you liked the idea of having him in the clubhouse or whatever, you’re the ones I’m curious about. How long do you want Ken Griffey Jr to be this team’s DH versus RHPs? When is your breaking point, where you say “you know, it’s been a year and change, and the bat speed just isn’t there, so he probably shouldn’t play much anymore.”?
This isn’t an insinuation that the point should be today, this week, or this month. I’m just asking a question. For those of you who wanted Griffey on this team, at what point will you stop wanting him to be the reguar DH? When do you need to see some offense by before you give up on the franchise icon as a major league hitter? And what do you want them to do with him once everyone agrees that he’s just a bench guy?
How long should we wait? That’s my question to those of you who think he should have been on the team to begin with.
The Mariners attendance is at an all time low. You can’t claim that people go to watch him when no one is going to the mid week games.
I attend tons of games. I have never seen this play out the way you are describing it. Fans like winning, and are more excited when they are winning. The largest ovation I heard mid week was after Bradley’s homerun.
I know there are still Griffey fans out there, but just remember this – good Griffey left. Rooting for his bloated corpse doesn’t change that fact.
If we got any future Hall of Famers hiding out in Tacoma, they’re late bloomers.
How does this have anything to do with winning? The argument is to play better players, not to try and put as many future hall of famers on one roster.
Didn’t we see enough in 2008 and 2009?
Hence the “(we think)” caveat in there. We don’t know what the attendance would be without Griffey, so it’s entirely conjecture. It could be lower. It could be higher. But he’s got attendance bonus clauses in his contract, so management obviously thinks he has an effect.
“How does this have anything to do with winning? ”
What it has to do with is the post mentioning ‘future hall of famers waiting in the wings’. Context, son, it’s all about the context.
I think the point he is trying to make is that, based on what people are currently doing at Tacoma, there isn’t even a league average bat waiting in the wings to take Griffey’s spot. Really if you drop Griffey it will mean either Tui stays up after Hanahan is healthy or Langerhans will come up. Tui gives you basically nothing over Junior, once Hanahan is back anyway, Langerhans gives improved defensive depth in the outfield which is nice but I’d much sooner dump Sweeney to get it than Junior.
Griffey is different. To suggest that people should turn on him shows a complete lack of disrespect for the history of the franchise. Sometimes it’s not about this year.
Bravo, Shanfan.
djw-
Nothing to be too puzzled about really. As you say yourself, if they were doing with Griffey what they’re doing with Sweeney, it wouldn’t be a problem. So if Sweeney was gone, Griffey WOULD be the guy getting the occasional pinch hit, and a day or two a week at DH.
But as long as the end of the bench is being occupied by an idle body with essentially the same skill set, it pushes Griffey up into a bigger role than his body my be able to accomodate.
That’s all. And just as you said, it wouldn’t be a problem if he was playing the role Sweeney currently holds on the team.
I mean, it’s an easy answer– would you rather be tickled and hugged by a first ballot Hall of Famer adored by fans coast to coast, or Mike Sweeney?
Why is Griffey different? Are you really willing to give up a spot in the playoffs this year to have Griffey on the team? Don’t forget we already gave Griffey his swan-song once.
I was happy that Griffey signed and thought you guys were too negative on him right from the beginning. Turns out you were right.
I am fine with one “clubhouse” guy on the roster. Sacrificing two spots is too costly.
Griffey to the DL
and/or
DFA Sweeney
The way it is now is completely unsustainable and is sacrificing valuable wins.
Opiate-
“How is Griffey different?”
Seriously? How is Ozzie Smith different than the rest of the Cardinals? How is Cal Ripken Jr different than the rest of the Orioles? How is Babe Ruth different than the rest of the Yankees?
He’s an icon. He truly IS the face of this franchise’s proudest years. In the same way that 1995 is held onto as the greatest year for the Mariners, even when their 2001 team tied the all-time wins record for a single season.
You can disagree with Cliff. Fine. But asking “Why is Griffey different” essentially backs his opinion that not recognizing Griffey’s unique status shows a lack of respect for this team’s history.
I don’t necessarily agree with that opinion myself, but your response galvanized anyone who thinks that way, Cliff included. A bit ironic, to anyone watching that exchange.
cliffjohnson,
Imagine you’ve got an elderly parent that really shouldn’t be driving. Is it a sign of disrespect for you to take away the car keys of the person that raised you from birth?
Like other Mariner legends, Ken Griffey, Jr. has been and will continue to be given the respect he deserves. The question for you is, are the Mariners obligated to give him a contract for as long as he wants to play? (In his unscripted FSN interview, he joked about wanting to play next year as well)
I see reflections of myself in many of these comments. A little torn over the icon. In his “golf course/weight room” interview he mentions quite possibly even playing an additional year. Yes Ken I can understand kids are expensive, however I turn my back on “momma needs a new pair of shoes”. You don’t play this game with one foot in and one foot out. No skimming the cream off the top pal. Not in Seattle. Pitch forks and torches Jr. Pitch forks and torches.
Griffey is different. To suggest that people should turn on him shows a complete lack of disrespect for the history of the franchise.
The history of this franchise is precisely zero World Championships, with or without Griffey. To be blunt, there is very little reason for Griffey to be playing baseball instead of golf if the purpose of the 2010 Mariners isn’t to contend, and for him to contribute to that: he’s not going to pass Barry Bonds, his career numbers over all are very close to done, and he’s pretty much done as an offensive force.
How is Babe Ruth different than the rest of the Yankees?
You realize that Babe Ruth basically got cut from the Yankees and went and played horribly for a few months as a Brave in Boston, right?
But asking “Why is Griffey different” essentially backs his opinion that not recognizing Griffey’s unique status shows a lack of respect for this team’s history.
Respect is a two-way street. Please note above in JMHawkins’ post that Edgar and Bone decided to hang ’em up instead of hanging on around baseball for years and years as a bad player. You can make a good case that Junior has contributed very, very little on the field to his teams since his 2000 season (maybe one or two years of decent ball, the rest as ~replacement level). Now, maybe he’s entitled to play as long as he wants, even if he’s a terrible player- that is the point about Dave talking about a “leash”… but I honestly think he’s overstaying his ability to be a good baseball player, and this is sad more than anything else.
He was my childhood idol, I’m 32 now. I’ll just saw if that leash is long enough, tied up to a post so it stretches out and rises up off the ground some, maybe Griffey will walk by not seeing it and trip over it..doing more damage to his knees, effectively ending his 2010 season and M’s career. Let’s hope! It was fun last year even though he sucked, but he is killing this team singlehandely now. Saunders or Langerhans should be on this team, they wouldn’t have struck out swinging with the game on the line yesterday. They would’ve made contact for sure and moved the runners over or even drove them in. I question Wak for evening having pinch hit for Adam Moore in a crucial series.
In the “Be Careful What You Wish For” department:
Mr. Mariner, Alvin Davis, was eased out by free agent signee (!) Pete O’Brien, and we had to watch him consistently groundout to the second baseman – when he wasn’t popping out – for 3 1/2 years! We finally ate the last few months of his contract. So again, who replaces Griffey? This isn’t a case of Jim Presley keeping Edgar Martinez in the minors. I’d rather watch Junior groundout to second than the next Pete O’Brien.
The last time we got rid of Griffey, we got some young unproven kid who struck out a lot to play centerfield. He turned out okay.
The “we have no one else” argument holds no water. If there’s one thing we know this front office can do, it’s find undervalued talent that just needs a chance to play.
My leash is at its end with Griffey as our regular DH as well as Sweeny and Byrnes. If we are going to have a LF that hits below the Mendoza line then we are better off to call up Saunders and give him a chance. I came into the year excited by Eric Byrnes but 30 at bats into the year (I know small sample size) I am not longer excited and tired of the pop-ups.
Griffey cannot catch up with even decent major league fastballs, as shown this weekend in Chicago and if a guy has something above average he looks just silly and knows it. You know its sad when even Tim McCarver can see that your bat is too slow to hit a major league fastball and is questioning why opposing pitching is throwing Griffey something off speed. It’s the only time in my life I actually found myself agreeing with Tim McCarver, I almost committed suicide on the spot.
The saving grace right now is that the rest of the AL West is struggling (except for Oakland). The M’s staff has also done an excellent job containing the opposing offense and giving the team a chance to win almost every night.
Whereas the M’s offense was picked apart by Danks and Garcia, two middle to back of the rotation pitchers.
So in my opinion when Bradley is back Sweeny should be DFA, Saunders called up to play LF and Bradley put in to the DH spot. Byrnes then backs up the OF, Tui the infield (provided Wilson’s hand is really okay) and Griffey can play on Sundays IF the roof is closed.
DFA Griffey!!! That fat dude needs to just go back to Orlando and attend his kid’s sporting events. Pickup Joey Gathright from the O’s system.
I’d rather take a shot at the future rather than continue to hold onto the past. We won’t know what we really have coming up until we actually give them a fair chance.
11% of the season is gone, I’m willing to go another 9%, but I don’t think it’s going to help. I was OK with Griffey until we kept Sweeny also. If this was just a baseball decision, he would be gone. Honestly, I think Carp would add better production. Tough Love, good-bye Griffey, go home enjoy your millions and your family. We appreciate what you have done.
Griffey’s wOBA is .248. At this point, almost everyone is better than Junior. For those of you who seem to think there aren’t better players in Tacoma are kidding yourselves. Ryan Langerhans and Mike Carp would be expected to out produce Junior.
So again, who replaces Griffey?
Figuratively, ANY warm body from AAA could replace him (either by putting a warm body with decent defense in LF and shifting Bradley to DH, or a warm body with better bat/worse glove to DH). Griffey has played at replacement level for most of this decade, which means that from a performance standpoint, there’s “free talent” that can come in and chip in the 0-1 WAR you can get from “free talent”.
The thing is, of course, you can’t sell a Ryan Langerhans bobblehead, and nobody is going to think Michael Saunders is a clubhouse leader because of his Ichiro bearhugs… but bringing Griffey back had nothing to DO with his on the field performance in 2009, because it was essentially worthless (any number of random AAA all bat/no field players could have done what he did at the plate).
Thank you JMHawkins for laying the numbers out. There is a pattern in there worth noting.
I am doing my very best to stay away from the third rail, but I have had a thought about Griffey for several years that fits this discussion. It seems to me that a fellow with gaudy numbers from his era can lay a whole bunch of questions to rest by being a mortal person from one end of his career to the other.
If there were any doubters remaining out there, 2010 Junior is exhibit A. After half a lifetime in the game, Griffey stands out like a sore thumb among his slugging and fire-balling peers: He is a forty year-old athlete aging normally like a forty-year old athlete normally ages. I may have reservations about his current abilities, but I never had doubts about his integrity.
Ken Griffey did all those amazing things with his gifts and his guts. While it is both sad and hard to watch him frustrated and in pain, I find it easy to celebrate the man and what he has meant to Seattle and the entire baseball world. Perhaps many of us are impatient because we want to see him in Cooperstown that much sooner.
Its wrong thinking if anyone thinks we dump Griffey and Sweeney and our problems are solved.The Mariners have quite a few underperforming players right now. And seriously Hannahan and Langerhans are crap.We need to make some serious adjustments to this offense. Those two stiffs wont help. The Mariners waive Langerhans and no one wants him. What does that say?
That’s why I think you leave have to leave him on the roster as the 25th man and get rid of Sweeny. As far as any warm body from AAA, I think if we are going to accept that approach we should choose the warm body with the most upside which IMHO is Saunders, let us not forget Langerhans cleared waivers which means all other 29 teams had a chance to have him and choose not to. IE they considered their 25th man better than him. That said, I think Langerhans is a better 25th man option than Griffey, but I just don’t see the front office DFAing Junior this season.
Carp, I would be fine with but I don’t think he has the chance to be a long term fix in LF that Saunders does.
We’re not saying it’s solved, we’re saying it’s the first step to being solved.
If their defensive additions (or Saunders if you want to consider him) plus the shifts in the positions (i.e. Bradley to DH) equal the “offensive output” you want, then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Unless you’re one of those people who wants Adrian Gonzalez, in which there isn’t much more to talk about.
That nobody else wanted him. But there will always be differences in how players are valued, so you can’t make a statement based upon that one observation.
First of all, I must say that my username is my initials, not “Junior”. That being said…my “leash” for Griffey this season is the trade deadline. I mean, maybe Z is gearing up for a trade for more of an everyday LF and they are giving Griffey as much playing time as they can before the roster gets jumbled (Bradley to DH, Griffey to PH)? Who knows? If the trade deadline comes and goes and the roster still is the way it is…then god help us.
This is also a guy who up until recently was drinking 10-12 cans of soda per day. Some players do take better care of themselves.
Bradley is batting .167 so I think dont he solves the issues either. When a player goes unclaimed by everyone in the league I think that is a pretty good sign of what his value is. We have plenty of defense. We need to score some friggin runs! We need to add a few major league bats to this line up .
I don’t think Bradley is going to end the season batting below the Mendoza line though. I think he will continue to improve offensively…especially if he moves to more of a DH role occasionally and doesn’t have the distraction of trying to not embarrass himself in LF too often.
Dave, I’m glad you’re still reading this thread. That’s my question (not an argument), who? Who do we get in April and at what price? I got hooked on this site because of your insight into this very thing. (The last time we traded Junior he was the premier player of his generation and Mike Cameron was a fairly known commodity with several seasons under his belt.) Who is available in April and what do we give up? You are the best I’ve seen so far at that sort of analysis. It’s like January all over again for me. I’m asking for a bit of Hot Stove in April. Gary Sheffield? David Ortiz? Elijah Dukes? Carl Crawford!?! Jack Cust? The guy the Rangers just demoted? Jose Guillen? Ivan Rodriguez? The Minnesota catcher stuck in the minors? (I’m going down the catcher alley now because I don’t think Adam Moore (or Rob Johnson) is going to contribute any more offensively in the next few months than Griffey can and a DH/catcher might be nice). Ryan Doumit? Pierzynski? Guys I’ve never heard of but you have? That’s what I’m asking, who is out there and what would it take? We may have excess pitching to trade in a couple of weeks and that is gold. Who? I think every case is problematic and it’s too early even for Jack to pull something worthwhile off. Or they’re being patient or money is tight. Or they know that part of their fan base would be pissed if Griffey were replaced with replacement level talent. The ‘easy’ pick-ups seem as problematic as Griffey. And for what it’s worth, Milton Bradley had nice things to say about Seattle’s clubhouse chemistry to the Chicago press. But I’m just an old baseball fan and you’re the guy with the web site (who covered this stuff quite well this winter). So I ask, who?
Or is it whom? 🙂 Game’s on! Go M’s, all 25 of you!
P.S. “Any random AAA dude” is not an answer. We could replace half the roster with random AAA dudes right now.
I guess I got misunderstood when I said this team isn’t that good that Griffey is going to cost them wins. What I should have said is that there isn’t really anyone who’s going to replace Griffey on this team that is going to be the difference between winning the pennant and not because this team just lacks the offensive firepower across the board. So for whatever tiny, meager, miserly fraction of a decimal chance better the upgrade over Griffey would be, it’s not worth it.
Going into the season, there was at least a chance that Griffey could make a contribution, used properly, while the odds of Sweeney doing so were nearly non-existent.
I honestly don’t understand why. They’re both old broken down players, well into the downside of a good career (in Sweeney’s case) and a great one (Griffey). But: Sweeney was better last year. He’s six years younger. The 4 projection systems on fangraphs averaged a .319 wOBA projection for Griffey and .322 for Sweeney. There may be a case that Griffey 2010 was a slightly better bet than Sweeney 2010, but it’s not self-evident.
So if Sweeney was gone, Griffey WOULD be the guy getting the occasional pinch hit, and a day or two a week at DH.
But my point is this: Wakamatsu plays him all the time, and bats him above Bradley and Kotchman, despite his obvious inability to handle it. I don’t see why removing Sweeney would change Wakamatsu’s mind about this. (If there’s a renewed commitment to play him once a week, that’s one thing, but there’s no particular reason to think this particular decision is going to be made).
And the people who are giving up on the season are just ridiculous. The AL West is up for grabs, and talent wise it’s very, very close.
Griffey on this team that is going to be the difference between winning the pennant and not because this team just lacks the offensive firepower across the board. So for whatever tiny, meager, miserly fraction of a decimal chance better the upgrade over Griffey would be, it’s not worth it.
Griffey’s wOBA is .248. Mike Carp (to take one example) has an average projection, using the 4 systems on fangraphs, of .329. That’s simply a huge difference, worth several wins. The gap between Griffey 2010 and a mediocre bat is pretty huge. If you think nostaglia is a good reason to keep him around, you should at least be honest with yourself about the cost you’re willing to incur.
Sorry, I probably didn’t put that question quiet right, as I stated earlier, I understand what Griffey did for baseball in Seattle. It probably should have been more like “Why is Griffey being held different standard than the other players on the roster, today, when we think we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs?”
My point is, every franchise has a “face” such as Griffey. Many organizations have had to face the dilemma of moving on from that player. The organizations that win, frankly put winning above all that sentimental stuff.
Using your examples, St. Louis and Ozzie Smith parted ways before Smith couldn’t field a groundball anymore, look where St. Louis is today, Baltimore let Cal Ripken Jr. hang around and play every day long after he should have been in order to get him his record, look where they are. Those decisions might not have had direct consequences on where they are today, but they set a tone on the way those respective organizations make decisions. It is already hard enough to get free-agents wanting to come to Seattle, knowing that our organization isn’t doing everything they can to win is only going to be another strike against us. It will also alienate fans in the long run.
No player should ever be so beyond reproach that they are guaranteed a spot on the roster regardless of production. This team would be better without Griffey on it. (And I’m not ignoring the Sweeny factor, he should be gone too, replacement-level bats can produce just as well as both Sweeny and Griffey and maybe actually play some D and pinch run as well when needed).
This season writes the final chapter in the Griffey in Seattle story. He is bound for Cooperstown with an Ms cap on. How it plays out will say a lot about the organization and its fans.
Cheer, or boo?
P.S. “Any random AAA dude” is not an answer. We could replace half the roster with random AAA dudes right now.
No, you couldn’t. Chone Figgins hasn’t spent most of the last 10 years being injured or bad. Neither has Milton Bradley.
Again, Griffey’s had two years in the last DECADE where he’s been a good player. The rest of the time has been a) injured and not contributing on the field, and b) being terrible and not contributing on the field- while he was a better hitter earlier in the decade, his defense was so bad that it, plus the fact that he played in an extreme hitter’s park, basically made him not much better than any random AAA player the Reds could have put out there. He really would have been better served being an AL DH from about 2002 on.
Griffey is the equivalent of Richie Sexson, Jose Vidro and Carl Everett’s last gasps of careers at this point in his career- there’s simply no reason for him (or them) to have a job based on what they are doing on the field. Griffey has his job because he USED to be able to perform at a HOF level for the Seattle Mariners, and he’s a great guy in the clubhouse.
I mean, maybe Z is gearing up for a trade for more of an everyday LF and they are giving Griffey as much playing time as they can before the roster gets jumbled (Bradley to DH, Griffey to PH)?
Yeah, but if the Mariners are 7-10 games out at the trade deadline because their offense has been so terrible while playing a cripple at DH, what makes you think they’ll trade for a an everyday LF instead of trading Cliff Lee for whatever they can get?
Because look at the rest of the major league. Red Sox are 10-11, Texas is 9-11, Dodgers are 8-12. It’s not like the M’s are the only team struggling this early in the season.
Because look at the rest of the major league. Red Sox are 10-11, Texas is 9-11, Dodgers are 8-12. It’s not like the M’s are the only team struggling this early in the season.
Right, but it’s not a given that ALL of those teams (or even any of them) will be in contention come late July. In fact, I’d say the odds are decent that out of Boston, Texas, LA and Seattle, one or two of them WON’T be in contention (within 5 games of their division lead) at that point in the season- bad luck + poor performance for a half-season + falling behind a hot team isn’t all that unusual for even a good, 90 win team (look at how many Mariner teams have done this during the past decade)- and I don’t think you can realistically call the M’s a 90 win team as they are currently constructed, even with Bedard and Lee pitching at full strength. You can’t assume “OK, we can suck on offense until then and turn on the afterburners with a trade and we’ll be fine”.
In fact, going from a 0 WAR DH (Griffey- and that may be generous in calling him a replacement-level player; he may actually be BELOW replacement value at this point) to a 3-4 WAR DH (which would be one of the top DHs in MLB) only nets you maybe a win over the last two months of the season… the same amount of wins as going to a 1.5-2 WAR DH would net you now in May. The bottom line is you don’t get the games back you played before the trade deadline with a bad player, and those potential wins are gone forever.