It’s Not The Fact That He Was Asleep
Interesting day, especially for those with deep interests in the sleep patterns of sports stars. I can’t wait until someone declares it the “Nap Heard Round The World”. In a lot of ways, this whole story is funny. In other ways, it reveals what everyone knows deep down inside.
It’s not the fact that Junior was asleep on Saturday night that matters. If he was hitting .380, it would be the source of good natured jokes, and people would marvel at the greatness of a guy who could hit well while also apparently lacking the energy to watch his teammates play. If the team was winning, it would be written off as a non-story. In fact, I’d guess that if the team was winning, the two players who talked to LaRue never mention the incident, and it never sees the light of day. This is only a story because Griffey is not hitting and the team is not winning.
But he’s not hitting, and they’re not winning, and the fact that two teammates would talk to a reporter about Junior being asleep during a game is perhaps the more telling aspect of this story. If Griffey really commanded the respect of the entire clubhouse, and they loved having him around, no one talks about this to a member of the media. But they did, and that they were willing to bring this up to someone who they had to suspect would write about it suggests that perhaps Griffey’s influence in the clubhouse either isn’t as great as some would suggest, or perhaps more likely, that it only matters while a player is producing.
We’ve all played with that guy who tries really hard to be a leader because he likes to hear himself talk, but he doesn’t have the skills to back it up. In basketball, this guy always tries to run the offense and tell you where to go, but he ends up just jacking up an off-balance 18 foot fade away that barely catches rim. You know that guy – he’s at every gym, annoying the hell out of everyone. People hate that guy, because he doesn’t realize that he’s the reason the team is losing, even as he orders everyone else around. Everyone wants that guy to either show enough self-awareness to realize that he’s terrible or shut up.
That guy can’t be a leader, because he’s just not good enough, and no one respects anything he says because he can’t play. Junior is now that guy. While they may laugh at the pranks and the tickling, the other 24 guys on this roster are all extremely competitive players who badly want to win, and they’ve had a front row seat for the “Griffey Is Done 2010 Tour”. And when he’s constantly grounding out to second base or waving badly at change-ups in the dirt, he loses the credibility to tell anyone else what they’re doing wrong. His ability to lead the team is compromised by the fact that these guys realize he probably shouldn’t be on it. And that’s my guess for why a couple of guys were willing to talk to LaRue about the fact that he was sleeping during a game.
I don’t think the nap really matters. I don’t think the guys on the team are all that upset that he wasn’t available to pinch hit the other night. My guess is that most of them probably didn’t want him hitting in that situation anyway, so maybe deep down, they feel like he did them a favor. But I think there’s a reason that this became a story in the first place – it’s that everyone involved with this tragic experiment realizes it’s not working and it’s not going to work. The Mariners brought Griffey in to be an influence in the clubhouse, but you can only lead as long as you can back up your words on the field and play at a minimum level to where you’re not actively hurting the team.
Griffey can’t do that anymore. He’s a drain on the team’s chances of winning, and the guys on the team know it. They might like his personality, but I think that, deep down, they don’t really want him as their teammate. Not anymore. They might enjoy playing cards with him, but at the end of the day, they want a DH who can hit.
This story doesn’t get written about a clubhouse leader who really commands respect. That this story got written suggests to me that Junior is not that guy, and if that’s true, he has nothing left to offer this organization. It’s time. Hang them up, Junior.
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.684 OPS puts you square in the middle of American League DH’s this year — with hopes of improvement. .469 puts you 3rd from the bottom with no hope. So, yeah, I’d say ‘sufficiently better’.
but does indeed stick with Cameron’s tired narrative of blaming players for the sins of the front office.
I suppose you are saying that poor play can’t be blamed on the players themselves.
You are right in one sense, though, it is understandable that Griffey wants to play and get paid for it. Same story with Sweeney. Hell, I’d take a contract to suck, if they’d pay me. And you are right that the front office and manager should have rearranged things much sooner, and even realized that Griffey and Sweeney on this team creates all kinds of problems. But you see Dave mentioned all of that before the season even started, and has held the front office and manager to account for it in nearly every case that it has predictably turned out badly. So I think you have no reasoned basis for your assertion.
From a Fangraphs commenter on Jose Guillen potentially being traded to the M’s: “The best part is Jack Z is so conceited that he probably believes he can make this a good deal somehow, and Cameron’s Disciples will applaud until they see Jose’s 6.7 second time to first base for the first time.”
Can we please call ourselves Cameron’s Disciples from now on?
Obviously this guy hasn’t watched Jr. leg one out recently. Although now that I mention it, neither have I.
I, too, fail to see the validity of Dave’s baseketball gym-rat analogy. I don’t think any of Griffey’s teammates would describe him as an overbearing, grating personality, but rather an amiable, fun teammate whose exuberance has helped whisk away the dark cloud that permeated the clubhouse just a short two years ago. But I think Dave is spot-on with his remark that it’s not only outsiders who realize that Griffey is done – his teammates do, too. And with all the losing that has gone on here over the past several years, there are no sacred cows, no matter the heritage…
It is a rather slim hope as the league average OPS is 734 and most of the rest of regular line up is under that.
Yes, CO Exile, I understand that Dave has expressed his displeasure before the season began with the doubling down on both Griffey and Sweeney. And I certainly couldn’t agree more. Both decisions were painful from day one and have clearly set this team back. That said, Dave’s vitriol directed at the players since then has been completely out of proportion with his criticism towards the man who put Sweeney and Griffey in positions where they would most likely fail. The fact is, players will always want to come back and it’s hard to blame them for that. It’s the GM’s job to tell them when their time is done. In this case, all it would have required would have been not offering Griffey and Sweeney contracts. So no, I guess I don’t blame them for their poor play. I blame the man who put them in a position where it was rather obvious that they would play poorly.
This years M’s exemplify the addage that in professional sports winning is everything. Have a few of those one run losses go the other way, have a couple of Griffey’s balls get through a shifted infield, have Lopez come through a couple of times in the clutch or have one of our catchers either catch or hit somewhat consistently then we are back to contending and cream pies. A fine line with overreacting a caution. I certainly do not get the feeling that Jack and Wak are ones to sit idly as the losses mount. Painful to watch but I remain optimistic. Hey, so what Griffey caught a few z’s. I am more concerned about Felix getting dialed back in.
2 potential problems with this:
1. Its a possibility that since Griffey has had a habit of sleeping a lot, the younger players thought nothing of telling a long time reporter he was asleep in the clubhouse. It could have been innocent, and LaRue acted on it trying to get Griffey to retire.
2. I feel this story has really turned the negative attention from Sweeney to Griffey. I’d much rather see Griffey around than Sweeney IF either of them are going to stay.
That being said, I don’t believe either of them belong on the team any longer, but if one is to remain in a diminished PH once a week DH role, Griffey should be the man.
Please don’t triangulate.
This isn’t about Sweeney or Bradley or the catchers or LaRue or the two player sources or the people who sit in the front office.
This is about a professional baseball player who is paid solely to hit (and for whatever reason in the #5 hole) and how well he’s performing that role.
We’re approaching the year and a half mark for the reunion tour, and it’s time to just face the fact that the singer has lost his voice.
Let’s fix the problem and get better.
As soon a Bradley can return to the active roster, encourge Junior to retire. I would also send Adam Moore to Tacoma as he is competely lost up here. I would release Colome and take his place on the 40 man roster with Alfonzo. He may not hit but at least he’s a better defensive catcher.
I would take Colome’s place on the 25 man roster with Hanahan. You would then have Sweeney (he will eventually go as well when jack makes a deal), Langerhans and Hanahan on the bench to pinch hit and Alfonzo and either Wilson as defensive replacements.
Zombie Griffey, drinking up to 12 cans of carbonated brain fluid each day. This is not a pretty sight.
To me, it’s not so much that the Mariners are putting Griffey to sleep. They are baseball’s equivalent of a sleeping pill. What puzzles me is why Griffey wants to show up and fail every night when he must have so much else to do in the world, along with the money to do it. Why does he, in essence, wait to be fired instead of leaving on his own terms?
Pride.
One overlooked aspect of this caper is the fact that Fuentes is a lefty and it made some sense to have Johnsosn hit against him instead of Griffey. I would note, however, that in his time back in Seattle Griffey has been hitting lefties better than right handers (relatively small sample). I am not sure what to make of that.
have a couple of Griffey’s balls get through a shifted infield
… he’d still be a terrible player, with 2 XBH and no HRs in a month and a half of play.
What most have missed on the subject is, “that it is what it is.” So Griffey gets a little humiliated by this, assuming he does, because most would. This in the end will never undo what Griffey did as a Mariner specifically and a MLB player as a whole. He’ll go down as one of the best and deservedly so.
I like what TiltedMug had to say; “it is what it is”. Look Griffey is not the only person falling asleep watching the Mariners these days. I wish he had retired after last year, it was the perfect situation to do it, but he didn’t and I still get excited every at bat. He isn’t the player he was, but he is still the best athlete that has EVER played in Seattle and one of the best to ever play the game. The problem isn’t a 41-year-old Griffey, it’s the rest of the underachieving lineup (Gutierrez & Ichiro aside) that is the issue. Baltimore has more runs than we do!!! That’s sad.
Utis makes a good point and that is the real story is the “hint” that the team is close to letting Junior go.
This hint suggests inside information that was leaked. He chose to couple that info with the sleeping information give by the 2 unnamed players. This was obviously done purposefully and very effectively.
The question I want to know is… was he working alone to try to bring Griffey down or is this part of a anti-Griffey conspiracy??? If it is the latter, how far up does it go within the organization. And finally, what did Jack know and when did he know it?
When a team is 12-19, terrible offensively and the DH is 40 years old with a .234 slugging percentage and 6 RBI, I don’t think Jack Zduriencik needs to put on a trenchcoat and meet reporters in parking garages for people to assume he’s looking for a change.
As Baker stated this morning, the question really boils down to whether Wak actually had Junior in mind to pinch hit for Johnson. However, I agree with those who say Junior should have made himself available in the dugout that late in the game, regardless.
Please pardon me if I missed it, but I don’t remember anyone actually discussing the matchups in question:
* The Angels had reliever Kevin Jepsen (throws right) on the mound in the top of the 8th. In 2010, right-hand hitters are batting about 100 points better against Jepsen, than left-hand hitters.
* Sweeney wasn’t available, because he was the DH that night.
* Johnson had hit a sharp single in his prior AB.
* In 2010, Junior is batting well over 100 points better against lefties (.333), than righties (.197). I know it is only 8 AB’s, but it is worth noting that Junior also hit lefties better than righties in 2009 (particularly in regards to SLG, and OPS).
* If Wak had pinch hit Junior for Johnson, would the Angels have brought in Rodney, or even Fuentes to face Junior?
* Moore was scheduled to catch Sunday afternoon.
If Griffey retires within the week all this anti Griffey stuff goes away an he goes down the Mariners all time hero with parade. An they can just have him show up to Safeco for his promo nights an wave to fans.
Yea, remember when we traded super utility play every position guy Bill Hall for barely league average first baseman casey kotchman, when there were plenty of free agent first baseman who were just as good and likely better. We might as well go ahead and pin that one on griffey too lol.
I’m skeptical. If it actually came down to this, I’d imagine they’d only do so after being very direct with Griffey about retiring and him blowing them off. Otherwise, it would be a very passive aggressive action on their part, and I just don’t believe that for a second.
Griffey is not just a baseball player for the Mariners he is a Seattle icon/hero. Z an Wak are clearly draging there feet with this. They are afraid to be the one to tell him he’s done. But Griff in return has to know he’s done an probably feels obligated to be there for the fan fair an team chemistry. Someone just needs to grow some balls here!
Screw Sweeney he sucks, an nobody cares if he gets cut.
These guys are not helping the team at all.
Looks like everyone in the clubhouse is pissed that “info” was leaked by two of the guys. I just want this roster to get this resolved and start talking with their bats. Even if Griffey pinch hit for Johnson, he likely would’ve struck out or grounded out to the right side. If Wak actually had pinch hitting options, it wouldn’t of matted what Griffey was doing. His bat is slow and his body isn’t allowing him to perform at a high level anymore. I doubt he will be released so either he graciously retires or becomes the 25th man on the bench. When Bradley comes back, he needs to be the DH and let Saunders and Langerhans man left field until trade options come up. This issue is either going to sink this season or the team will get past it. They need to focus on beating a very crappy Orioles team three nights in a row and get back in this.
Shannon Drayer with an update:
Here’s what Larry LaRue said,
1st player: Young, doesn’t know Griffey as well, had access to the clubhouse and knows that he left. Adam Moore, Casey Kotchman, Jason Vargas. Doug Fister was pitching in the game in question and went 7 innings. Not sure what LaRue’s cutoff would be for a “young” player given his age.
I suspected, as many did, that this attempt to continue the Jr. love fest would end poorly; but man, seeing this written down really hurts. I feel bad for my team, for the teams management, and obviously I feel bad for Griffey. One of the best players of all time and he did it honestly in an era of deceit and cheating. God’s speed Ken.
Please don’t let it be Saunders.
Shannon reporting that team is holding yet another meeting right now. Hope they can all resolve this crap and focus on beating the O’s.
Drayer talking with Salk really summed up the bigger question – why is Junior a regular and why is he batting 5th? The team could “drag their feet” by making him the 25th man, pinch hitting occassionally. That would require releasing Sweeney at least, and probably Colome, so they can add everyday players to the roster. Right now, Griffey is getting lots of ABs because the roster is constructed so poorly that he needs to go out there. He doesn’t need to be batting 5th though, so Wak doesn’t get a pass.
When Bradley is ready to come back, DFA Sweeney and Colome, activate Hannahan or Tui along with Bradley, Bradley to DH, Griffey to PC (Player Coach), Saunders and Langerhans in LF. If Bradley isn’t going to be back soon, eh, call up Carp and make him the DH until you have a better option. Then the whole napgate issue goes on the backburner.
Congrats to Dave Cameron on becoming British Prime Minister.
eponymous coward
Did you finish reading what I wrote? I said I would choose Griffey over Sweeney if I HAD to. At this point that is also the same choice Wak faces. I would obviously love a productive DH. Hence me supporting the release of Sweeney when Bradley returns to be the DH.
As for the money: Jack Z hasn’t made a move because ‘hunting season’ hasn’t started. If the M’s continue to lose up to the start of ‘hunting season’ they could be out of contention. So (hypothetically) if the M’s are out of contention, wouldn’t the team keep 1 useless player for revenue purposes. Griffey with no bat speed and no legs is worth more than Sweeney in merchandising, ticket sales, concessions, etc.
Of course winning cures all.
I was kidding about the conspiracy theory… Honestly, I think we will find that LaRue acted alone. : )
Given the state of affairs, it’s seemingly going to be a short ride.
Griffey has been moved down to 7th in today’s lineup. The end is near for him in the eyes of Wak (as an everyday player, anyway).
It would wise of him to keep his job at fangraphs.
The simple fact is that Griffey is taking away ABs from someone who is better than him and could use those ABs to potentially make more money in the future.
So it can only be assumed someone might dislike the fact that they continue to trot out a DH minus the H in the clubhouse.
I wonder if this means Dave will embrace Cricket…
Dobbs
That is why Bradley should be the DH, Saunders/langerhans in LF. Griffey should be the 25th man. Limiting his ABs to a minimum, while maximizing his profitability for the team. Pushing Griffey into retirement is not just a roster decision.
I said I would choose Griffey over Sweeney if I HAD to. At this point that is also the same choice Wak faces.
False dilemma– this is like having to choose between two different kinds of bread for a shit sandwich. NEITHER of them belong on a MLB roster- especially not one where Milton Bradley and Jack Wilson aren’t going to stay in the lineup consistently.
You know, at the end of the day, this is a real wake up call for Griffey.
Also:
Griffey with no bat speed and no legs is worth more than Sweeney in merchandising, ticket sales, concessions, etc.
If the Mariners are going to elevate nostalgia over winning baseball games by playing a terrible player, why not bring Edgar back in September, too? I’m sure he could sell some bobbleheads.
I think the argument is ridiculous (aside from the message it sends to your organization: performance is irrelevant as long as you used to be a HOF caliber player 10 years ago). Winning is MUCH more important to making money for a baseball team than selling merchandise, and the sooner the M’s put the best players on the field that they can, they sooner they fix that.
With a quote from a magic source!
In an effort to do something different, I started watching Cricket (Indian Premier League) this year. The game is has a lot of similarities to baseball, but it is different enough to make it interesting. It’s a fun sport and all IPL matches are on Youtube for easy viewing.
Jesus Colome/Sean White, and Mike Sweeney being released would make room for Bradley and another IF/OF.
This is a shit sandwich. But if Jack Z has better bread he would have brought it to the picnic by now. But he doesn’t, and he hasn’t been able to trade for a superior turdwich.
First comments from the clubhouse.
Larry LaRue is taking a lot of heat from commenters on just about every Mariners website/blog. All he did was report what happened, for crying out loud.
And Shannon Drayer, whom I generally admire, takes to task the anonymous players for violating the sanctity of the clubhouse. Yet in the same blog she quotes anonymous players who complain that the clubhouse just isn’t as fun this year.
I’m confused…..
eponymous coward
Edgar retired. Griffey has not…. And yes they did ‘elevate’ nostalgia over winning when they signed Griffey. Its naive to think of Griffey as just a roster change.
The differences and similarities between cricket and baseball are endlessly fascinating. They’re the only two sports where the defense controls the ball, for starters. A cricket ball is just a teensy bit smaller and a teensy bit heavier than a baseball, and the stitches go round the circumference, not the loopy baseball pattern.
I still find baseball more interesting to watch for more than about a half-hour or so, but you have to like a sport where the shortstop-equivalent is called “silly mid-on” or “silly mid-off” and stands about ten feet away from a guy smacking a hard ball with a huge willow bat.
One of my lifelong dreams is seeing some pro baseball players and cricketers get together and try out each other’s games a little. I’d love to see Ponting or Tendulkar take some cuts against King Felix, or Pujols trying to get wood on a googly.