It’s Time
Dave · May 18, 2010 at 3:10 pm · Filed Under Mariners
In 1987, Andre Thornton was given 97 plate appearances as a DH and posted a .118/.206/.141 line before he was removed from the roster and retired at season’s end.
In 2001, Harold Baines was given 94 plate appearances as a DH and posted a .131/.202/.143 line before he was removed from the roster and retired at season’s end.
In 2003, Dean Palmer was given 98 plate appearances as a DH and posted a .140/.235/.163 line before he was removed from the roster and retired at season’s end.
Those are the only three DHs in major league history to post a lower OPS than Ken Griffey Jr currently has in a season where they racked up at least 90 plate appearances. Not one of them made it to 100.
Ken Griffey Jr has 97 plate appearances. It’s time.
Nice stat! I think it will happen by month’s end.
Well maybe Jr. has been powering up and saving his energy so he can hit 100 home runs to end his last season in Seattle!…. Or maybe he is just done. I’m so confused.
Thank you Dave.
I get the part about Griffey being done. But from a business standpoint, how do the M’s market the remaining Griffey promo nights without looking bad?
Maybe the FO is letting Griffey play til he gets one more hit at Safeco and then (whether he’s aware of the plans yet or not) they’ll stop the game and Jack Z and Wak, along with Jr’s buddies Edgar and Jay, will come out on the field and present him with a lifetime achievement plaque, retire his number on the spot and accept his retirement. The game delay will be similar to when Mark McGwire broke the HR record in 1998 but at least the suffering will be over with.
Wishful thinking.
That wouldn’t be awkward at all.
“Congratulations, Jr, you’re retiring.”
“What, no I’m not.”
“Yes, you are. Messers Buhner and Martinez will show you to the clubhouse.”
“I’m not going anywhere.”
“Ken, don’t make this more difficult than it has to be. Come with us and no one will get hurt.”
I like the idea of him retiring after his next hit (ala John Kruk), but I’m afraid that’ll mean he’ll be our DH next year too.
Bradley shall be back this week, therefor we might finally have a real DH(maybe) with Saunders as our everyday LF.
and Jr.? I dont mind having him as a team mascot or bubblehead as long as he doesn’t eat up a 25-man roster spot…
Make Griffey the 3rd base coach. Instantly the team gets better.
It’s also time that if I see Lopez and Griffey 4-5 in the lineup again I just might hurt myself.
as the security guard reaches for his taser.
I’m optimistic that we will see this scenario play out relatively soon:
Some breaking report that Jr has left the team. No one knows why, we all speculate for a few days, and then the organization makes the announcement.
I just can’t believe he would continue to go on like this.
I think that if Griff retires, that all his promotions this year would do even better.
Everyone would be like, “OH MY, the best Mariner ever just retired, and they are giving out his bobblehead. I have to have it.”
Everyone would pour into safeco to say farewell. All he has to do is make an appearance at all those promotions.
Don’t be so hasty guys…
I’m sure he will regress toward the mean any day now.
/me (running and ducking)….
Seriously. He needs to man up, and just walk away from the game with grace. If he does, all the Griffey promo nights become Griffey legacy nights and the trinkets become all the more valuable.
Agreed, it is time. Gut tells me they are waiting for a home game and a ceremony. Make him a coach in some capacity. This makes me feel old though as I can still remember Jr’s homer of flash gordon in the northwest rookie league just after he signed.
Maybe he’s looking for one last home run before he walks off. Wouldn’t you want that to be your last at bat?
If anything, I can’t see him or the M’s FO doing this till they get home. Doing it on the road would be pretty bush league.
Hear hear! The M’s threw us a bone when they dumped Richie Sexson mid-season. He was hitting better than Griff if I remember right. It’s time for the M’s front office to give us a scalp other than the hitting coach.
So the guy made a mistake by coming back but get off his back. He’s a freakin Seattle icon and one of the best players of ALL time without shooting a needle in his rump. Just throw him in the 7th whole once or twice a week. He did have 19 homers last year or have you all forgotten. Yes he had a poor average but batting average is overrated. It’s about OBP and RBI’s.
So he isn’t EVER going to retire until someone pays off an opposing pitcher to lob him a fat juicy one.
That’s what I’ve been assuming, actually. He probably figured he’d have at least ONE by now.
Maybe the M’s have a surprise in store. During this road trip they’ve quietly moved the walls in – they’re now sitting just outside the infield dirt. Unfortunately it might STILL take a while for Junior to homer…
I agree, everyone is ragging too much on Griffey. We wouldn’t have a baseball team in Seattle if it wasn’t for him and the ‘95 Mariner team. So he is struggling and it’s frustrating, I can understand that. But Griffey deserves to go out on HIS own terms. Watching Griffey struggle for a season is not that bad. He has earned the right to do what he wants. Everyone tends to forget what he has meant to this city. The Mariners would not have a baseball team without what he did in the ’90s.
I don’t care if he’s an icon if he’s not only losing games through poor performance (even by the OBP and RBI metrics you claim are so important he is doing atrocious), but also tarnishing his own legacy by ungracefully clinging to his dead career.
I care more about winning in the now and the future than anything that happened when I was 12 years old. Are you really contented never seeing another playoff run again because of 1995?
Sounds like an intervention.
Edgar: “You know, Junior, we all love you.”
Buhner: “But you have to stop hurting yourself. Hurting the ones you love.”
Z: “I want my two million back you son of a!!!”
Buhner: “Now Jack…this isn’t about pointing fingers…this is about healing.”
Griffey will simply not be pushed out the door by this team’s front office. It is not going to happen.
Now, if you really make Griffey retire, go to the games en masse and boo him. Sure, it’d be about as much fun as shooting Old Yeller in the back of the head, but it might just be the only way. Junior has incredibly thin skin. I’d wager it’d only take two or three games of constant ridicule for him to wipe away the tears and figure out that it’s time to walk away.
Because people are only looking at his Average? …and his OBP and RBI count are good?
I love Griffey, but I hate the blind defense of him at least as much as I loved his play.
Do you guys really think if we had Milton Bradley at DH and Saunders in left since the beginning of the season would have made the Mariners an above .500 team? Griffey IS NOT the reason why we are losing. It’s the ENTIRE offense. Forcing Griffey to retire is not going to all the sudden turn us into a legit playoff contender.
“It’s about OBP and RBI’s.”
His numbers there are crap too.
We currently don’t have a passable baseball team now. What’s the point of celebrating the past if it only spites the future?
“Forcing Griffey to retire is not going to all the sudden turn us into a legit playoff contender.”
A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
I agree, everyone is ragging too much on Griffey. We wouldn’t have a baseball team in Seattle if it wasn’t for him and the ‘95 Mariner team. So he is struggling and it’s frustrating, I can understand that. But Griffey deserves to go out on HIS own terms. Watching Griffey struggle for a season is not that bad. He has earned the right to do what he wants. Everyone tends to forget what he has meant to this city. The Mariners would not have a baseball team without what he did in the ’90s.
______________________________________________
We currently don’t have a passable baseball team now. What’s the point of celebrating the past if it only spites the future?
_______________________________________________
I would rather have a bad baseball team than no baseball team. Remember when we had the Sonics?
Today’s lineup:
Ichiro rf
Figgins 2b
Guti cf
Lopez 3b
Griffey dh
Kotchman 1b
Wilson ss
Johnson c
Saunders lf
Hernandez L (2-4)
It’s like he got a bunch of pre-printed lineups and he doesn’t want to change anything until he’s used them all.
No, its not the only thing, but its a first step that HAS to be made. No, not any one thing is going to cure this team’s ills, but it is a move that has to be made and his ‘presence’ is hurting this team.
He needs to swallow his pride, realize he’s done as a MLB hitter, and retire.
I am really getting sick of all of the Griffey apologists. I’m 28 and grew up idolizing him just to watch him hold this team hostage for a trade to the Reds. Now he is holding the team hostage again for his own selfish needs. Go away Junior!
Would it be wrong to wear pajamas and a robe to the game tomorrow?
Addition through subtraction. Being able to have Griffey and Sweeney’s spots available would make a big difference on this team.
Is there any chance that Z’s hands are tied on the Griffey thing this by Chucky Armstrong?
Griffey did/does mean a lot to this Franchise as it’s most recognizable icon, but at the same time I don’t understand how people can be okay with our current product being held hostage to memories.
He probably is the main reason the Mariners are still here in Seattle today, but was it really worth saving the team in Seattle if we’re just going to re-hash memories of 1995 and 1997 until the end of time?
Junior is batting fifth again today. It makes the baby Felix cry.
How is Griffey holding the team hostage?
He signed a contract, he’s coming to work, and he’s playing when he’s put in the lineup.
It would be one thing if they asked him to retire and he refused, but as far as we know all he’s doing it trying to do is live up to the contract he signed with the team.
And failing. But still…
If he was on the team and never got in the lineup very few people would be complaining, especially if Sweeney was gone.
Look, I’ve given Jr the benefit of the doubt longer than most, but we’re way past having to have him in the lineup every day because he’s an icon.
It’s bad enough that he’s on the roster, but the fact that Wak puts him out there every day is unconscionable and could ultimately be the thing that takes down Wak as well.
Blame Wakamatsu for continuing to put Griffey into the lineup. If Griffey sat on the bench, maybe he would realize he needs to retire. I hate the people who just like to throw all the blame on Griffey like it his fault that we have been a horrible team.
Completely agree. The worst case would be that Griffey would let it be known to the media that he was unhappy about being benched, at which point he would hear crickets.
I don’t know if Wak thinks he’s helping, but putting him in the lineup every day is more embarrassing than benching him imo.
“If Griffey sat on the bench, maybe he would realize he needs to retire. ”
No, his at bats are providing all the proof he needs of that.
“Holding Hostage” was perhaps a too strong, it’s just painful to continue to watch him massacre the vision I had of his beautiful swing in his prime. Wak definitely deserves a lot of the blame for continuing to trot him out there, in a prime spot of the lineup.
My point is, he’s not helping the team he saved by being on it anymore. It’s time to move on.
Yeah, and I remember them putting subpar product on the floor and then whining/extorting for a handout to build a new stadium of dubious economic value. The Sonics were no great loss because of FO BS.
And you really think the choices are between have a circle jerk over Griffey and not having a baseball team at all? No matter what he did in the past, he has net future value of NIL. I don’t care if he puts ass in seats for the now because as a fan of the Mariners the financial calculus of letting a shell of a player bat 5th is so much less important than just winning.
Sutiyo is spot on; we can’t be held hostage by memories. I don’t know how a fanbase survives if they only look backward.
He’s not? He’s in the lineup every day. That’s not really sending him a message that he’s not important.
The front office could have passed on giving him another 1yr contract, but they didn’t. Instead, they signed him and built a bunch of marketing around him: commercials, bobbleheads, etc.
The front office and/or manager could have benched him when he wasn’t producing. They haven’t done so.
The front office could have release him now and face almost zero repercussions because he’s not producing. They have not done so.
How about the front office sticking its neck out a little? How about a little accountability?
Doesn’t happen. Instead, they sit about the fray and get off scott-free, while everyone demands Jr steps forward and retires on his own.
It’s the job of the front office to make the tough calls, and so far they haven’t done jack shit.
Amen, Paul L. Blame begins and ends with the front office for bringing him back. Let’s face it, Junior hasn’t been a productive major leaguer since 2005. Last year was nice, but to think he’d provide a .3 WAR again was highly delusional.
Paul, I’m not trying to argue with you. Reading your other posts it sounds like you’ve reached your boiling point too, I’m just venting my frustrations.
Griffey is not the only one to blame; The Front Office and Wak deserve just as much of it. You’re right about that. I didn’t even attack Griffey personally, I’m saying that a lot of the defense of Griffey that I see/read is based on the memory of what he was to the team (Savior, Star, whatever you want to call him). The reality is that he can make the decision to end it, just as much as the FO can and that’s why he’s just as accountable.
It’s hard for the front office to do anything if they thing the Griffey apologists represent a sizable portion of the fan base.
I thought you meant “it’s time” as in the ufo’s are coming.
Yea, that’s the problem.
(eyeroll)
The most sizable portion of the fanbase are the people who aren’t coming to the games because this team is too painful to watch.
Sutiyo, I think we’re basically in agreement. I’d love for Jr to retire on his own, and if anything it would really put a nice end to his career even with the disaster of the last six weeks.
I just don’t expect it, because it doesn’t happen very often.
Cmon Paul, after all Griffey has done for Seattle, how could the front office defecate all over his legacy by forcing him into retirement. He’s the reason they have jobs now.
(Joking)
Griffey isn’t the only reason for the M’s sucking. There are 7 guys hitting around .200 or under in the regular rotation. That is HORRIBLE. Stop blaming Griffey
Indeed Paul, I don’t really expect anything to happen. At least I’ll get a Griffey Retro T-Shirt out of Saturday’s game to wipe the tears away from another loss.
Ken Griffey Jr has 97 plate appearances and is not only still on the roster but batting fifth tonight.
Damn you, Jr! Damn you!
Yeah, and we want all those other bums thrown off the team too. No one is raising a peep about them.
Judging by the comments here lately (deserved, I might mention), I don’t think the people around here are exactly throwing parades and building monuments to the FO or management lately.
It’s not either/or, here. Junior is clearly done; most everyone can see it, and the longer he avoids that reality, the worse it is for him AND his team. He’s partly to blame for that part.
On the other side: Junior is clearly done; most everyone can see it, yet Wak and/or the FO won’t put themselves on the line to do what nearly everyone sees must be done. The longer they avoid making that decision, the worse it is for the team and the fans. They’re partly to blame for THAT.
By the way, as many have mentioned, it’s not like Griffey has to be outright released. DL, Bench Coach, or even just rarely playing are all options that are better than the current one.
Average number of victories for the 1987 Indians, 2001 White Sox, and 2003 Tigers: 62.
Is a half-inning long enough for his naps?
Your act is getting old Dave. Give it a rest.
The thing is, Junior could leave now with dignity ala Mike Schmidt, acknowledging that he can no longer help the team with his bat. It would be a classy end to a great career. Maybe the way to go is an announcement and one more homestand…
If you think the M’s are already done this season, how does keeping him in the lineup help build for the future? And if they’re still hoping to contend?
He’s one of my favorite players of all time, but watching him now just hurts.
It’s not that people are “blaming” Griffey for all of the offensive struggles, people are just frustrated because the writing is on the wall that his career is over, yet neither he nor the FO will do anything about it.
Griffey, and probably Sweeney too, are much different cases than say, Lopez, Kotchman, Figgins, etc. All of those guys are struggling to hit but they aren’t at the end of their careers, so retirement isn’t an option for them. With Griffey it is an option, he just doesn’t want to accept it.
As long as Griffey is on this team, the team should be reminded it’s a mistake. Even if you find it boring.
While a part of me is angry at Griffey for not realizing it’s time – mainly because I’ve seen him say so many times over the years “I’ll know, no one will have to tell me” – I don’t really think it’s his fault. Pro athletes just aren’t wired that way.
No, this is on Wak’s and Z’s shoulders. They’re the ones who are allowing this farce to continue.
Griffey in the 5 hole tonight…then Kotchman. What are they thinking?! This has to come to end…has to.
The definition of insanity – doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result.
I’m kind of fascinated by the power the “oh noes what about the bobblehead nights!!!!” argument seems to have in many people’s minds.
Either you cancel them, or you go forward with the giveaways, ostensibly celebrating his career. Slightly awkward? Possibly. But how is a mildly awkward promotional event anywhere near as bad as the horror and embarrassment that we’re seeing now?
Yet the stats clearly speak for themselves. It’s way past hoping for miracles when it comes to Junior.
Maybe even the hitting coach (I know, but hey…could work!).
I can say with a straight face, yes. We’d definitely have more opportunities to drive in runs in close games.
Oh, give me a break!
Junior is not the problem with this team. He’s #25. Check the other 24, and the manager, and see who deserves to be here or not.
If Wak played Junior properly and Zak and/or upper office got rid of the 1-24 junk, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
Junior deserves to be here, even though I agree one year too long, but only because it is the house he built … otherwise the Mariners would be in Florida and there would be no team here and no beautiful stadium.
To reiterate, for those who didn’t get it, Junior is not the reason for the current standings. Sprout a brain cell.
My biggest fear is if we continue down this road fans will stop coming and that is worse for the franchise as it could affect payroll in the future.
Properly? He’s not hitting at all. He does not “deserve” anything. Like on any team, you EARN a spot.
This kind of thinking is why Bavasi was wrong so often. Play the veteran and dump the kids solely because the vet has grittiness and all that nonsense and the kid “can lose you games”.
Please…
I’ll do it! I’ll jump!
Junior is not the only problem, I’ll agree. However, the spot in the roster he occupies is the first problem the organization should address.
Oh and so you are telling me that Guti, Felix, Ichiro, Saunders, Lee, Vargas, Fister, Aardsma (yes, he’s still a good closer), League, Kelley and Langerhans are junk? Please. Figgy is way off but he’s not junk, just having a hard time right now.
The thing is, even currently, Griffey is NOT putting fans in the seats. The Mariners have had the smallest Safeco Field attendances EVER. It isn’t all recession and just because it is Spring, it is also because the team has garbage offense, and Griffey is the keystone of the garbage offense arch (being a first ballot hall of famer and all that). As an economic commodity, he is doing nothing (except for maybe the three promotion nights) and as an offensive commodity, he is clearly hurting the team.
I’m beating a dead horse here, but just because Jr. helped save baseball in Seattle doesn’t mean that we should then reminisce about the uprising of the Mariners when that was 15 years ago, and at present day we have a team that is so anemic that it is about to crumble into nothing. If we were tearing the cover off the ball, then it would be nice sure, but this is just absurd.
Yet nobody disagrees that there aren’t other problems but the guy who made the claim Junior is not the problem wants us to believe all our other players are “junk” and Junior is a victim. Sure many are but there are many who are not.
Move on. Yes, he’s a hero. But just because he “saved baseball in Seattle”, does that give him the right to stick around until he’s 85? Oh right, he’s the 25th man, so no matter how old and incompetent he is, he’ll never be “the reason for our current standings.” You’re right, let’s keep him until his dying day, because since he’s only the 25th man, he’ll never be at fault.
Exactly, some people want us to accept the fact we “owe” Junior something. Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t management give him a 20 year services contract? Is that not the ultimate showing of love? What about the fact they brought him back last year and gave him a great send off? Is that not love?
He still has to pull his weight like all the other guys on this team. Wak is blind and needs to wake up BUT Junior needs to as well.
I don’t know where the idea that Griffey single handidly save the Mariners franchise came from; Edgar, Randy and Buhner were all major players and all of them had the decency to retire quickly when it became apparent when they weren’t even useful anymore. And unlike Griffey, they didn’t force their way out of Seattle in a way that could have been devastating if Mike Cameron didn’t turn awesome.
Junior isn’t owed anything by Seattle fans right now. He got his salary, he played great ball, people paid attention. It’s what they get paid to do. If you want to argue that he deserves a spot for stuff he did 15 year ago then I question whether your desire to win in the future.
This is the key to what most of us are saying; Throw all the dead weight out, Junior included. You’re only defending him for sentimental reasons and ignoring that he among many is having a negative impact on the performance of the team. No one is special on this team.
Then you sit his ass on the bench. He’s #25, everyone knew that.
And exactly how many games has he lost for us, as opposed to other criteria?
If I did not make myself clear, I meant the junk 1-24 who don’t deserve to be on the roster.
IMO, Junior only deserves to be this last year, as stated above, and yes I know Junior is done and is embarrassing his legacy, but he was always #25 and is not the problem with this team.
When you keep losing by 1 run, or can’t score any runs, or the bullpen blows it, or whatever … that’s not Junior … don’t take it out on him. Yes, he sucks this year, but he is not the major problem, it’s possible to fit 24 in and let an old man get his last hurrah.
The attitude that he deserves to be there is a problem with the team. He’s a symptom of a disease at the FO.
sadly, it is time and perhaps it is time the mariners brought back Guillen, that is, Jose.
While I believe this to be pretty much true, the next time I read a comment that mentions this (hey, let’s see if we can say it 100,000 times!), I’m going to have to punch my Griffey bobblehead.
Per Baker, Wak says that Griffey has looked good with the bat as of late. He bases this off no other than… batting practice in Tampa Bay. Batting practice. For Chrissake, he’s in the lineup because he looked in batting practice 4 days ago.
A few years ago, when I was playing American Legion ball, I had a few impressive showings in batting practice. One of my fondest batting practice memories was hitting three consecutive pitches over the 387 sign in center. I looked pretty good. Regardless, the furthest my baseball career took me is my current intramural college softball team. Do you think if I tell Wak about how I did in batting practice that one day he might demand I get a contract and DH me?
What the Mariners Owe Griffey
Sitting him on the bench as a PH, does not solve the problem unfortunately. The problem with having two guys that can’t play the field (or hit…) taking up the roster spots have been mentioned by Dave and many others.
We all love Griffey. We as fans should put the team’s success as a priority however…
Except he isn’t; he’s a regular DH (Along with Sweeny) and is relied on to produce in critical situations.
Why does the old man get a break but others don’t? Isn’t it pretty hypocritical to put blame on others but don’t go after the guy who is producing even less than them?
Which would you rather see, Griffey playing out his last days for the rest of the season or M’s competing to win the division.
To be honest, I believe that Jr is going to retire on his own accord before the season is up.
He needs to wait till the dust from the ‘nap-gate’ settles however. Would be bad for PR to retire now I imagine.
You know what I hate about the whole “Playing in Florida” trope? That would have likely improved the Mariner’s chances of winning long term. Just look at the success of the Marlins and Devil Rays compared to Seattle.
(Joking. Sorta)
Let’s put it very simply, does anyone think this season has gone bad SOLELY because of Junior?
I agree that Junior should have taken his “last hurrah” at the end of 2009, but it didn’t happen.
Who is to blame? The person who wants to keep playing (who apparently now can’t very well), whoever evaluates the talent, the person who does the lineup, or someone else?
In any case, the record is not caused by Junior.
Yes, I agree, he has not helped it, he is embarrasing himself, and he is done — but would it have been any different with someone else in his price range?
I don’t think anyone is out to put blame on Griffey. I think the point is that he is our primary DH, and that is the biggest problem the mgmt should address.
The front office is to blame, obviously.
That being said, Junior, of all players is the biggest symptom of the FO being inept and impotent. And if Griffey doesn’t have the brains or courage to end the madness then eff him.
It doesn’t help that there’s a apologist mill churning out Griffey sycophants right now.
gloo: I agree, he should not be our primary DH at all … and I don’t think he is. In any case, there are other places to lay blame.
We’ve played 39 games so far this season and Griffey has DH in 24 of those games. Can you explain to me how is he not the primary DH?
Naliamegod: Like I said, there are other places to lay blame.
Hope is not a means people! Happy retirement Jr.
Well, Milton is due to be back possibly tomorrow?! That is awesome. If he is not the primary DH going forward….
I fully expect to see Milton’s name filled in with “LF” next to it.
I never knew I lived in some bizarro world where it is excusable to be bad at your job because others are also bad at it.
This whole thing is obvious. Junior needs his best friend (Buhner) to take him out for a beer and explain what he needs to do. Don’t lay this on the team to do. Be a bigger person.
Will the team suddenly become better? Not per se but it will have new air to breathe.
Actually, I’ve been envisioning this scenario lately similar to that of Jonathan E. in the original Rollerball…where Junior walks into Z’s office, with the highlights of his career flashing in front of his eyes on a wall full of monitors, and Z — in his best Bartholomew voice — tells him, “We’d like you to retire from the game, Junior.”
Once upon a time, an aged Mariner decided after 100 plate appearances and 85 at bats to finally end a 20-year career (only 1990 and 1991 as a Mariner). He was hitting .282/.380/.400 in that limited usage. But he hung up his cleats on May 31, 1991.
Junior, it’s time you followed your father’s example and bowed out gracefully.
It seems clear the strategy is to play him continuously until he retires. Wak and Z are acting as if their hands are tied. It is time for another retirement as well…Chuck Armstrong.
Not to mention, Howard Lincoln, also.
Yeah, that’s really classy. Even if nobody owes him playing time, we all owe him a measure of respect.
The guy is not an idiot, he sees the same numbers as we do, and he’s going to know. He’s not a player-manager; he’s a player. A manager has to make these kinds of decisions, and they are simply shirking their duties by sitting still and insisting that Junior be marched out on to the field to fail.