Game 44, Padres at Mariners

Dave · May 23, 2010 at 11:06 am · Filed Under Mariners 

Latos vs Hernandez, 1:10 pm.

Happy Felix Day.

Line-up presented without comment.

Ichiro, RF
Figgins, 2B
Gutierrez, CF
Small Sample Size Hero, 1B
Bradley, LF
Griffey, DH
Tui, 3B
Johnson, C
Josh Wilson, SS

Comments

296 Responses to “Game 44, Padres at Mariners”

  1. Slurve on May 23rd, 2010 11:10 am

    I think I just threw up a little.

  2. Diehard on May 23rd, 2010 11:10 am

    Hmmm No Lopez is a good thing. But Robo Rob and Griffey and Sweeney and Tui all in the same lineup???? Jeez this could be another 2-1 game…

  3. Flowin on May 23rd, 2010 11:11 am

    What? This lineup makes zero sense. Please let this be a joke. WHAT!?!?!?!?

  4. msk0230 on May 23rd, 2010 11:12 am

    Wak wins for putting out the worst possible lineup and not having pitchers playing the field.

  5. RITTEM1 on May 23rd, 2010 11:13 am
    Jeez this could be another 2-1 game…

    …and where, exactly, do you see a run in this line up?

  6. Diehard on May 23rd, 2010 11:14 am

    I think They can scratch one out since Sweeney is on fire, but yeah if they are going to score, it isn’t coming from spots 6-9 in the lineup..

  7. Red Apple on May 23rd, 2010 11:17 am

    Small Sample Size Hero

    Sounds like a new offering from Nintendo. Wait…in a sense, it is!

  8. the tourist on May 23rd, 2010 11:19 am

    Another game without Saunders? Bloody hell!

  9. Liam on May 23rd, 2010 11:20 am

    To add injury to insult,

    You wouldn’t know it from his performance Friday night, but Mike Sweeney’s back still isn’t 100 percent.

    Sweeney went off for two home runs and six RBIs in the Mariners’ 15-8 romp over the Padres, but manager Don Wakamatsu said his designated hitter felt some stiffness in his lower back afterward.

    The injury has left Sweeney as a day-to-day player. Wakamatsu said Sweeney felt fine Saturday, but he’ll likely get the day off Sunday in lieu of Ken Griffey Jr., and with Seattle’s next three games against right-handed starters, he could have plenty of time to get healthy.

    That is, unless he keeps up his torrid pace at the plate and forces Wakamatsu to play him against righties. Sweeney ranks sixth in the Majors in at-bats per homer (11.6).

    “He came to Spring Training in tremendous shape, lighter than I’ve ever seen him,” Wakamatsu said. “Last year, if you look at his numbers from the time he got to play more consistently, they were great. He had a great Spring Training and didn’t get as many at-bats as we’d like early, but since he’s gotten consistent at-bats, the power has even come back. That’s a nice thing to see.”

    Link

  10. Diehard on May 23rd, 2010 11:22 am

    If Wak wanted to get it right today, well about as right as he could do it with Sweeney playing int he field(boo!!) today, he would have Bradley at DH and Saunders in LF. But nope, instead we get to see Griffey look old and washed up today yet again.

  11. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 11:22 am

    Can’t wait until we play in NL parks and get a better DH

  12. Brzeczyszczykiewicza on May 23rd, 2010 11:31 am

    What the fuck? No Saunders, no Langerhans, no Bard, no Kotchman, and no Lopez? FUCK WILBUR DONALD WAKAMATSU

  13. Utis on May 23rd, 2010 11:32 am

    Ichiro and Bradley will go yard. M’s will score the magic 4 runs (or more)!

    Wow, power is way down throughout baseball. Do you realize the M’s have a combined team ISO of 108? The Astros are at 092. The A’s, Indians, Pirates, and Padres are all feeble. The lowest team ISO last year was by the Mets at 124 and that would be higher than all of the above. Last years’s M’s ISO of 144 would be a relative powerhouse this year.

  14. dfath4688 on May 23rd, 2010 11:35 am

    Well hopefully we can TRY and manufacture some runs today. It is sickening watching us have 1 out with 1st and 3rd, and not do anything with it. What does Kotchman decide to do, oh yeah ground out. MMMMMM sickening!

  15. Leroy Stanton on May 23rd, 2010 11:39 am

    Dave, please keep disrespecting Sweeney. It’s the only thing that seems to be working. Perhaps you could send some venom Kotchman’s, Lopez’, and Figgins’ way too. Worth a shot.

  16. EthanN on May 23rd, 2010 11:43 am

    Maybe a day off will help Kotchman. He looks pitiful at the plate

  17. dfath4688 on May 23rd, 2010 11:44 am

    Haha yeah, I am happy to see Sweeney getting back to his roots. It would be nice to see him these next couple games, but who knows, we might get a suprise!

  18. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 11:46 am

    Wow, power is way down throughout baseball. Do you realize the M’s have a combined team ISO of 108? The Astros are at 092. The A’s, Indians, Pirates, and Padres are all feeble. The lowest team ISO last year was by the Mets at 124 and that would be higher than all of the above. Last years’s M’s ISO of 144 would be a relative powerhouse this year.

    Are you looking at data through the whole year, or just the first 2 months?

  19. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 11:49 am

    What the fuck? No Saunders, no Langerhans, no Bard, no Kotchman, and no Lopez? FUCK WILBUR DONALD WAKAMATSU

    I hope you’re not serious?? You actually want Kotch and Lopez in the lineup? They are hitting .200! I like giving Tui a shot, it can’t be any worse. Bard has played in the last few games and a day game after a night game is when the backup catcher always plays. The only change in the lineup I would like to see is Saunders in Left and Bradley at DH.

    Get educated before you post

  20. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 11:51 am

    Are you saying our Pitchers would be better DH’s? Haha, I like it

  21. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 11:51 am

    Wait, is Kotchman “small sample size hero”?

    Given his performance over the first 3 weeks of the season (compared to the last 5), he probably deserves the award.

  22. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 11:52 am

    I like giving Tui a shot, it can’t be any worse.

    Definitely not true.

    Tui is crap in the field, while Lopez has been the best 3B in baseball. (I cannot believe I said that, or that it’s true.)

  23. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 11:52 am

    <blockquoteCan’t wait until we play in NL parks and get a better DH

  24. ppl on May 23rd, 2010 11:52 am

    Don’t they want to maximize your opportunities to win on Felix days?

  25. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 11:54 am

    Tui is crap? Based on what? He’s barely played in the Majors for us to know if he is crap. Lopez is NOT the best defensive 3B in baseball this year. I don’t care what numbers say. They don’t give your errors for balls you can’t get to.

  26. beckya57 on May 23rd, 2010 11:57 am

    Hideous lineups aside, is anyone besides me worried about Felix? He just hasn’t looked very good lately. (He’s on my fantasy team, so I watch him pretty closely.) I can’t figure out if he’s hurt, or if he’s trying too hard to be perfect because he knows he’ll only have a couple of runs to work with, or if he’s not mentally ready to be an ace, or God knows what. Anybody got any ideas? I think his problems get overlooked because he’s one of the few legitimately talented players on the team (Guti, Ichiro and Lee being the others), but I’m worried that he’s not developing very well.

  27. jjenson on May 23rd, 2010 12:00 pm

    Lopez is NOT the best defensive 3B in baseball this year. I don’t care what numbers say. They don’t give your errors for balls you can’t get to.

    Hmm my understanding of UZR is it does factor in what balls they can and should get to? Or am I missing something from this? Despite his horrendous hitting his defense has been amazing.

  28. benthic on May 23rd, 2010 12:00 pm

    I don’t know, Dave; the Sweeney sample size isn’t actually that small if you go back before this season. He’s slugging better this year than last year so we should expect that number to come down, but in terms of avg. and OBP, Sweeney is basically doing what he did in 242 at-bats last year (2009: .281/.335/.442 vs. 2010: .290/.348/.565). So that’s a plenty large sample size. Throw in his hot spring as well, and it doesn’t seem so clear that we shouldn’t expect Sweeney to keep being a decent OBP guy with a bit of pop. Not a dream DH, to be sure, but better than a lot of options in a Mariners uniform right now.

  29. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:00 pm

    We don’t have many options to maximize lineup when half of the team is hitting .200

  30. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 12:03 pm

    Tui is crap? Based on what? He’s barely played in the Majors for us to know if he is crap. Lopez is NOT the best defensive 3B in baseball this year. I don’t care what numbers say. They don’t give your errors for balls you can’t get to.

    Well, if you don’t trust UZR, and you don’t care what numbers say, and you clearly haven’t been watching the games, then I can’t really make the case, can I.

    All I can say is that Tui isn’t throwing the ball anywhere near first, and the ones that get there have been one-hopped from shortstop.

    Lopez has made some incredible plays with good reflexes, including getting the “swinging bunts” that are so hard to field.

  31. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:03 pm

    Lopez best 3B in baseball is funny

  32. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:06 pm

    Defense is nice but can we take a look at a guy that might be able to hit better than .200 with 1 homer and might actually take a BB once in a while?

    Jack built this team on Defense and we are paying a huge price because we CAN’T SCORE.

  33. erik.randall on May 23rd, 2010 12:06 pm

    Line-up presented without comment.

    Small Sample Size Hero, 1B

    I don’t think you held up your end of the bargain with that one.

  34. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm

    Trust me I watch every game and a guy that can hit at 3B is worth a lot more than a guy that MIGHT save you a game because of his defense. I’m not saying Tui is the answer but we don’t have any other options right now until we make a trade. Lopez is a pull hitter that does not walk. Should have traded him after his career year last year.

  35. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm

    Tui is crap? Based on what? He’s barely played in the Majors for us to know if he is crap. Lopez is NOT the best defensive 3B in baseball this year. I don’t care what numbers say. They don’t give your errors for balls you can’t get to.

    Which is why we haven’t judged his performance by errors. Visually he looks great over there, and UZR backs it up. He’s not Beltre, but he has been damn good at the hot corner. And Tui is crap in the field. Everyone has known it his whole minor league career. We don’t need to see him in the majors to judge his defense. Also, he is about Lopez’s equal with the bat even if we take this years Lopez as his true talent level. Tui is not good.

  36. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:10 pm

    Trust me I watch every game and a guy that can hit at 3B is worth a lot more than a guy that MIGHT save you a game because of his defense.

    Watching every game doesn’t make you right. Most of the writers of this site watch every game, and a few are PAID to analyze baseball. Dayton Moore watches every game the Royals play and that hasn’t helped him. So does Ed Wade, Omar Minaya, and Steve Phillips.

  37. Transient Gadfly on May 23rd, 2010 12:11 pm

    Small Sample Size Hero, 1B

    Not that you aren’t correct (you are), but as far as the managerial staff is concerned, it isn’t a small sample size. He was a good hitter at the end of last year, he was a good hitter in spring training, and he’s a good hitter now. Combine that with his veteranness and his good-influencey-ness, and he could have a .200 wOBA for the rest of the year and still not get dropped. They think he’s back. He’s wearing the magical Proven Veteran cloak.

    The thing we have to worry about now is him appearing not bad enough the rest of the year that he makes his way onto the 2011 team.

  38. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:12 pm

    OK so if anything then giving the struggling Lopez a day off after a night game is a bad thing? Come on. I was just bashing the guy that was upset that Lopez wasn’t in the lineup.

    Everyone get off the coach. He did pretty damn well last year with a less talented team than we have this year.

  39. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:14 pm

    Trust me I watch every game and a guy that can hit at 3B is worth a lot more than a guy that MIGHT save you a game because of his defense.

    Wow, between this awful lineup (no Saunders, boo! What happened Wak? I thought you alluded to the idea that Milton would DH against righties so Saunders could play…why is he wasting time up here riding the bench!) and this comment about Lopez’s defense I am depressed.

  40. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:16 pm

    So because you’re PAID to analyze baseball you’re smarter than me about baseball? Charles Barkley is paid to analyze too and he’s an idiot, though a funny idiot.

    When you say Lopez has been the best 3B in baseball, you need to include offense. I will take Beltre, Longoria and a number of other 3B’s in the game to make a play when the game is on the line on defense.

  41. Brzeczyszczykiewicza on May 23rd, 2010 12:16 pm

    Tui can’t hit or field. At least Lopez can do one of those things. And there’s no reason Griffey should be in the lineup when Saunders, Langerhans, and Kotchman are all sitting on the bench. Griffey was supposed to never start again ever, and those other guys all deserve spot starts at DH over him.

  42. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:18 pm

    Trust me I watch every game and a guy that can hit at 3B is worth a lot more than a guy that MIGHT save you a game because of his defense.

    Yet somehow we have been good at keeping scores down thanks to good starters and pretty reliable D.

    As we’ve seen in past years, you don’t want to put crappy defenders out there for whatever minor offensive bump you may get.

    Rob Johnson hits a homer for a positive run, then gives it back with crappy defense and a bad decision to try for third. You will never convince me that we should sacrifice good D for a few extra meaningless hits. Get me a Pujols type hitter with a not so great glove and I can accept the lower UZR. Until we find somebody like that, it’s never good to give up defense at all.

  43. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:18 pm

    So because you’re PAID to analyze baseball you’re smarter than me about baseball? Charles Barkley is paid to analyze too and he’s an idiot, though a funny idiot.

    Are you that guy who claimed to play with Tui?

  44. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:20 pm

    The thing we have to worry about now is him appearing not bad enough the rest of the year that he makes his way onto the 2011 team.

    True but I am less concerned with Sweeney than I am with Wak starting Griffey over Saunders or Langerhans who are clearly better hitters at this point.

  45. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:21 pm

    No Saunders today….. What the fuck is wrong with Wak?

  46. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:22 pm

    Wak also DH’ed Griffey & Sweeney , refused to pinch hit, played Rob Johnson, used Sean White often, and called for far too many bunts last year. Last year, we got unexpectedly good results from a lot of new players and overcame all of these decisions. This year, we are getting unexpectedly bad years from players we count on, so Wak’s bad managerial decisions are hurting us much more than they did last year. The difference between managers hasn’t been shown to be that large, and Wak seems to be a good manager of people, which is probably about half the battle in baseball. However, we have a team that needs to maximize every ounce of its roster, and score as many runs as possible, and his in game tactics have been terrible and have regularly cost us runs. We can’t afford to punt those runs because Griffey is funny, because Sweeney hugs people, because Rob Johnson exists, because Wak won money off of Tui’s brother in the Rose Bowl, because he keeps confusing Sean with Shawn.

  47. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:22 pm

    We have lost 12 games by 1 run. Keeping the scores down is fine but do we really want every game to be this close? What’s wrong with scoring runs? I agree you need good defense and that it’s cheaper to have a good D player then to get a big bat. But to defend Lopez who is probably the worst hitting 3B this year, quit being such homers. He is just getting a day off. Coach isn’t saying Tui is better.

  48. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:25 pm

    So because you’re PAID to analyze baseball you’re smarter than me about baseball?

    When you’ve got to the point when you’re getting paid to analyze baseball, then normally you know a thing or two about the sport. There may be a couple instances which someone who does not get paid does know more, but it’s very unlikely. Otherwise, you two would or should be paid to analyze baseball…

  49. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:26 pm

    Wak is not the GM. Blame Jack for putting Grif and Sweeney on the roster.

  50. djw on May 23rd, 2010 12:27 pm

    I like giving Tui a shot, it can’t be any worse

    Yes, it really can. Kotchman and Lopez have a track record of averageness, and are playing excellent defense. Tui strikes out in half his at bats and can’t play defense. I’ve long been baffled by the organization (and fans) fascination with him; he looks to me like the next Mike Morse. But he’s nowhere near there yet.

    In May 2010, he’s no more a major league player than Griffey is. The difference is he might be one someday, but I wouldn’t bet on it. If his last name were Smith, I expect this wouldn’t be such a minority view.

  51. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:27 pm

    But to defend Lopez who is probably the worst hitting 3B this year, quit being such homers. He is just getting a day off. Coach isn’t saying Tui is better.

    Who said I was a homer and who said I was defending him? I am defending a guy who has played a very good 3B this year regardless of how much I cringe when I see him bat.

    Wanna argue with people, fine, but don’t call out others as homers when the majority of posters here do a good job at objective analysis.

  52. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:27 pm

    We have lost 12 games by 1 run. Keeping the scores down is fine but do we really want every game to be this close? What’s wrong with scoring runs? I agree you need good defense and that it’s cheaper to have a good D player then to get a big bat. But to defend Lopez who is probably the worst hitting 3B this year, quit being such homers. He is just getting a day off. Coach isn’t saying Tui is better.

    You just ripped Lopez and said Tui was better a minute ago…

  53. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 12:28 pm

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the best fielding 3B in baseball, it’s not even close.

    Fielding Metrics for 3B on Fangraphs

  54. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:28 pm

    I am not paid to analyze baseball and never claimed to. I also never claimed to be more qualified to analyze baseball than you. But writers on this site are. You claimed that because you watch every game, we should take your analysis of Lopez’s 3B skills seriously, despite the fact that you began with “I don’t care what the numbers say.” I was pointing out that there are plenty of people who watch every game, you watching every game does not make you unique. Also, saying Lopez is one of the best defensive 3B’s in baseball does NOT mean we have to factor in offense. Maybe someone didn’t explicitly say defense when the comment was posted, but it was abundantly clear that his DEFENSE not his offense was what he has excelled in. Also, this isn’t an debate between the skills of Lopez and Beltre/Longoria (in case you haven’t noticed, but they don’t play for us). It is a debate between Lopez and Tui. Tui is not a major league player right now. Even though Lopez is slumping, he is still a major league player, who can contribute more than Tui can.

  55. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:29 pm

    Not everybody that knows about baseball wants to be a writer or analyst for a living.

  56. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:29 pm

    Yes, it really can. Kotchman and Lopez have a track record of averageness, and are playing excellent defense. Tui strikes out in half his at bats and can’t play defense. I’ve long been baffled by the organization (and fans) fascination with him; he looks to me like the next Mike Morse. But he’s nowhere near there yet.

    He’s the new WFB. Local boy from a famous Seattle sports family. I like Tui but I am not sold on his skills as a MLB player. Maybe a AAAA type or a bench guy at best.

  57. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:29 pm

    Not everybody that knows about baseball wants to be a writer or analyst for a living.

    And who here said they were? What’s your hangup with that?

  58. flashbeak on May 23rd, 2010 12:30 pm

    Ew. Ew. Ew. I’m going to go soak my eyes with Visine and take 49 showers after subjecting my eyes to reading this lineup. And afterwards… I’m not going to watch this game.

  59. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:30 pm

    I never said Tui was better. Show it to me. I said Lopez is getting a day off so who else are we going to play at 3rd? Give Tui a shot, why not.

  60. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:30 pm

    You just ripped Lopez and said Tui was better a minute ago…

    LOL, I noticed that too.

  61. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:30 pm

    Because you said if someone knows more about baseball than a writer that they should get paid for it.

  62. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:31 pm

    Tui is crap? Based on what? He’s barely played in the Majors for us to know if he is crap.

    Uhhhh, Sodo, look at what you post before trying to say something different. YOU questioned why many on this site see Tui as nothing more than a AAAA type player.

  63. beadyeyes123 on May 23rd, 2010 12:32 pm

    Because you said if someone knows more about baseball than a writer that they should get paid for it.

    You said that. Aren’t you the guy who used to say to everybody you played with Tui and know more about Baseball than everybody.

  64. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:33 pm

    On a side not Brad Adam is looking very proffesional this afternoon.

  65. FelixFanChris420 on May 23rd, 2010 12:33 pm

    This line-up is vomit

  66. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:34 pm

    I am just saying Tui is still young and based on how Lopez is hitting and he hasn’t had a day off, what is so bad about playing Tui at 3rd when Lopez is hitting .200, geez

  67. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:35 pm

    No I never played with Tui.

  68. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:35 pm

    You said that. Aren’t you the guy who used to say to everybody you played with Tui and know more about Baseball than everybody.

    You played with Tui! Wow, you must be one hell of a man!

  69. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 12:37 pm

    Man, Lopez’s BABIP is .237… That is nearly 100 points lower than Milton Bradley’s.

  70. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:37 pm

    Tui probably is a AAAA player. Right now half of our offense is not hitting like major leaguers so what’s wrong with giving Lopez a day off?

  71. flashbeak on May 23rd, 2010 12:38 pm

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the best fielding 3B in baseball, it’s not even close.

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the worst hitter in the AL, it’s not even close.

    Lopez can’t hit

  72. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:38 pm

    I am just saying Tui is still young and based on how Lopez is hitting and he hasn’t had a day off, what is so bad about playing Tui at 3rd when Lopez is hitting .200, geez

    Because we already have Sweeney, Johnson, Bradley, and the non-Gold Glove Wilson in the field. Tui is probably not better offensively, but if you want to give Lopez a day off, do it on a day that you run out a better defensive line-up. It is just another bizarre tactical decision by Wak.

  73. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:40 pm

    Ha, thanks Flashbeak

  74. Leroy Stanton on May 23rd, 2010 12:40 pm

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the best fielding 3B in baseball, it’s not even close.

    Nice link. Sucks to Aramis Ramirez this year.

  75. Utis on May 23rd, 2010 12:40 pm

    @HenryV
    I am comparing ISO for all of last year to the first quarter of this year. I am not sure how quickly ISO stabilizes but whole team samples should be large enough by now.

    I was wondering if the new Mariner’s strength conditioning program (remember that) could be partly responsible for the M’s power outage. However, it seems that the power outage is affecting almost all of MLB.

  76. Kazinski on May 23rd, 2010 12:40 pm

    I don’t see what the hysteria is about. Tui isn’t getting a shot at 3rd, he is giving Lopez the day off. That’s it.

  77. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:42 pm

    Defense is fine but at some point we need to start scoring some runs. Alec, are you telling me you would rather keep seeing us lose by 1 run then to try to score some runs? Obviously our defensive lineups are not helping us win games when we are 11 games under .500. If we were winning with our defensive lineup I would not argue.

  78. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:44 pm

    I am just saying Tui is still young and based on how Lopez is hitting and he hasn’t had a day off, what is so bad about playing Tui at 3rd when Lopez is hitting .200, geez

    In case you haven’t noticed here’s some fun facts!

    Jose Lopez: 26 years old, .211 average, uzr of 9.2
    Matt Tuiasosopo: 24 years old, .152 average, uzr of -.7

    So, Jose is only 2 years older than Tui, (he’s not in his prime yet)is slumping and still has a better average by .059 points AND is raping Tui in uzr by 9.9.

  79. mattlock on May 23rd, 2010 12:44 pm

    I don’t see what the hysteria is about. Tui isn’t getting a shot at 3rd, he is giving Lopez the day off. That’s it.

    Because Wak chose a really crappy day to give Lopez a day off, given that Bradley is in LF and Sweeney is at 1st.

    Yes, Lopez can’t hit, but he sure can field pretty damn well. Tui can’t hit, and he can’t field either. No upgrade there whatsoever. None. Not a bit. And on a day when defense has been punted elsewhere… this combo of pathetic decision-making is likely going to make for a pretty crappy game.

  80. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:45 pm

    Exactly my point Kazinski. I’m just getting on these guys defending Lopez so much. 7 weeks at a position does not give us enough time to evaluate Lopez on defense. Let’s see how he does over the year. Maybe the position switch is hurting his bat too as he’s not in his comfort zone.

  81. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 12:46 pm

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the worst hitter in the AL, it’s not even close.

    Not even remotely true.

    There Ramirez is worse, and a few are close, at 3B alone.

  82. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:46 pm

    When you have a strike out pitcher like Felix on the mound you don’t need as much defense as you would with Fister on the mound.

  83. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:48 pm

    n case you haven’t noticed here’s some fun facts!
    Jose Lopez: 26 years old, .211 average, uzr of 9.2
    Matt Tuiasosopo: 24 years old, .152 average, uzr of -.7
    So, Jose is only 2 years older than Tui, (he’s not in his prime yet)is slumping and still has a better average by .059 points AND is raping Tui in uzr by 9.9.

    How many AB’s is that based on for Tui? You can’t compare when Tui hasn’t had a chance.

  84. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:50 pm

    “Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the worst hitter in the AL, it’s not even close.”

    “Not even remotely true.”

    “There Ramirez is worse, and a few are close, at 3B alone.”

    I noticed that too, how I understood it was that Quentin was the worst so far in the AL.

  85. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 12:52 pm

    How many AB’s is that based on for Tui? You can’t compare when Tui hasn’t had a chance.

    True, but there’s a reason why Tui hasn’t had a chance. You don’t send Langerhans out there for Ichiro just because he needs some at bats.

  86. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:55 pm

    Hahaha, you’re comparing Ichiro to Lopez? Not the same thing. Ichiro is not hitting .200.

  87. maalox on May 23rd, 2010 12:55 pm

    I was wondering if the new Mariner’s strength conditioning program (remember that) could be partly responsible for the M’s power outage. However, it seems that the power outage is affecting almost all of MLB.

    You made me curious about this, so I went ahead and made a graph. Pretty interesting…

    Averaging all MLB teams, ISO can randomly fluctuate about .030 from year to year. But if we’re to look at it like a stock chart, it’s clear that not only there are cycles that last between 30 and 45 years, but that we’ve just entered a “bear market” of sorts.

  88. Harrison on May 23rd, 2010 12:57 pm

    I have no problem with Tui at third. Lopez is doing squat and looks to be getting worse. This gives Tui a chance to play and an opportunity to get some key hits.

  89. Wallingfjord on May 23rd, 2010 12:57 pm

    Did anyone notice on the pre-game that Brad Adam and Bill Krueger are both wearing black suits today? They look like they’re going to a funeral…

  90. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 12:58 pm

    Amen Harrison

  91. Utis on May 23rd, 2010 12:58 pm

    Our defensive line up hasn’t been helped by the following.

    A decent (but not great) bullpen that has been mishandled at times.

    Giving away outs with bad baserunning and bad execution.

    Terrible defense at catcher.

    Lack of execution with RISP and less than two outs. This has been partly due to bad luck so one would expect some regression.

    Defensive teams need to do all the little things extremely well.

  92. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 12:59 pm

    When you have a strike out pitcher like Felix on the mound you don’t need as much defense as you would with Fister on the mound.

    Felix at his best is an extreme groundballer who can strike people out (also known as the most devastating skill set a pitcher can possess besides maybe the Randy Johnson strike out everyone all the time skill set). Groundballers benefit disproportionately from infield defense, so to maximize Felix, you would actually run out your best defensive lineup (plus probably play a catcher who can catch, but I always thought that you had to be able to do that to play in high school. Rob Johnson has shown me a lot). Fister is a flyballer, so most of his outs will come in the outfield, meaning you would actually be more likely to benefit from punting infield defense with him on the mound (However Fister should be getting all the help he can to keep this run going so I agree that it is probably more important to run out your best defense with him on the mound than Felix).

    The issue isn’t Tui (at least not too much. I think he should be in AAA still, but he’s here and better than at least 3 players on the roster so I’ll deal with it). The issue is that if you want to rest Lopez in favor of a BAD defensive player, you should do it on a day that there are other good defensive players on the field to pick up the slack. Especially with Sweeney on first, we should be playing someone who can make the throw over there consistently. Play Tui at 3rd on a day that Kotchman mans first if you must. And when we get down to it, if Wak likes Tui’s bat so much, we might as well just DH him (I’ll give you that he would be a big upgrade there).

  93. Westside guy on May 23rd, 2010 1:00 pm

    Not to load on, but not only is Lopez the worst hitter in the AL, it’s not even close.

    I really hate getting sucked into an argument, but – he’s not even the worst hitter on the Mariners. That honor belongs to George.

  94. henryv on May 23rd, 2010 1:00 pm

    Lopez has a BABIP of .237, showing that he has been getting incredibly unlucky.

    On top of that his HR/FB is 1.8%, which is insanely unlucky.

    And he’s been playing incredible defense.

    He is hitting 20% of his balls as line drives. It’s not often your BA is less than your fraction of line drives.

    If there is one player on the whole team that you could point at and say that there is a TON of evidence to him being able to turn around his ISO and OPS numbers, it is Jose Lopez.

  95. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 1:00 pm

    Yes, defensive teams need to do all the little things well and that’s a lot to ask. Offensive teams can make those mistakes and still pull out a win. What teams do you see in the world series and playoffs? Teams that can score and have a couple great starting pitchers.

  96. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:05 pm

    I have no problem with Tui at third. Lopez is doing squat and looks to be getting worse. This gives Tui a chance to play and an opportunity to get some key hits.

    To be clear, I disagree with this logic, but I understand it, and the idea of resting Lopez and giving Tui a shot every once in a while isn’t a dumb idea. It’s an idea that has some basis in reality, and guys need days off. The real complaint is that in addition to a bad lineup (Griffey and Sweeney), we have to deal with a bad 3B and a bad 1B. If you are committed to giving Tui a shot (again, I think he should be in AAA but I can see the argument for keeping him here), we have enough quality defensive players to do it on a day that he will be easily the worst fielder on the diamond. Tui is not the worst fielder on the diamond today, since he can at least move. Any day that Tui is not our worst fielder is a day he should not be on the field.

    Again, I am all for DH him with this roster though

  97. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:05 pm

    Praise the gods! No Lopez!! Now if Wak could just get the rest of the line-up correct.

  98. z24lax on May 23rd, 2010 1:06 pm

    I think when Mike Sweeney thought he was going to get a chance to fight some of his teammates he got so amped that he carried it over to his play on the field.

  99. firova2 on May 23rd, 2010 1:07 pm

    Judging by this thread, the game really needs to start.

  100. mattlock on May 23rd, 2010 1:07 pm

    Alec and henryv, you are both exactly right.

  101. mattlock on May 23rd, 2010 1:08 pm

    Yes, defensive teams need to do all the little things well and that’s a lot to ask. Offensive teams can make those mistakes and still pull out a win. What teams do you see in the world series and playoffs? Teams that can score and have a couple great starting pitchers.

    This would be because you’re too young to remember teams built around defense and pitching, that hit few home runs.

  102. kenshabby on May 23rd, 2010 1:11 pm

    This lineup makes baby Jesus barf.

    And in other news, RIP Josa Lima. :(

  103. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:11 pm

    Yes, defensive teams need to do all the little things well and that’s a lot to ask. Offensive teams can make those mistakes and still pull out a win. What teams do you see in the world series and playoffs? Teams that can score and have a couple great starting pitchers.

    1985 Cardinals. 2002 Angels. 2008 Rays (they could hit better than average but they were the best defensive team in baseball that year, which made up their main advantage over Boston and New York). That’s just who made the World Series. If you look at who made the playoffs you find even more (including a lot of other annoying Angels teams).

  104. kenshabby on May 23rd, 2010 1:12 pm

    *Jose Lima

  105. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:12 pm

    David Eckstein is Willy Ballgame’s hero

  106. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 1:13 pm

    Well we’re not talking about the old days. We’re talking about now. These days you need to score if you want to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox.

  107. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:13 pm

    and another ball up in the zone spanked down the line…..

  108. Wallingfjord on May 23rd, 2010 1:14 pm

    This game thread is getting pretty nasty already. Can we, you know, not get so personal and insulting to the other posters? Just my two cents… thanks.

  109. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:14 pm

    and another ball up in the zone spanked down the line…..and another unlucky bounce

  110. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:15 pm

    Mike Sweeney looks like a grandpa.

  111. mlathrop3 on May 23rd, 2010 1:15 pm

    Game over.

  112. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 1:16 pm

    I agree you need good defense but you can’t sacrifice offense for defense. Even if we are the best D in baseball you can’t have the worst offense and win. We at least need to be better than average on O like you said those teams were.

  113. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:16 pm

    LETS GO O!!!

  114. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:17 pm

    If we play them in the playoffs (not that I see us there, if you are saying we need better offense to make the playoffs no one disagrees, what we disagree over is whether or not we should get it from regression or from bringing up guys like Tui), I’m actually pretty confident. Felix has thrived on a big stage before (he does incredibly well in Yankee stadium, and who can forget his one hitter in Fenway in Dice-K’s debut), and Cliff Lee’s World Series start last year was one of the best in recent memory. Our problem is getting there (which with this Rangers team and an A’s team that stole the Mariner’s mojo could be harder than I thought in March).

  115. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:17 pm

    Bradley and Griffey hit back to back HR’s. You heard me.

  116. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 1:17 pm

    Has every win this year been a come from behind win? We haven’t even had a chance to hit yet and we’re loosing. Felix is pullin a Cole Hamels this year.

  117. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:17 pm

    Sorry, blew that comment

  118. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:19 pm

    ICHIRO!

  119. fargomsfan on May 23rd, 2010 1:19 pm

    Boo 16-28 :(

  120. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 1:20 pm

    Another thing that’s been disappointing about this years M’s is the lack of running game. Coming into the season, I was really looking forward to an Ichi Figgins one two punch of sb’s.

  121. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:20 pm

    BUNT FIGGINS!

  122. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:21 pm

    I hate Wakamatsu. Damn idiot. BUNT!

  123. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:21 pm

    I agree you need good defense but you can’t sacrifice offense for defense. Even if we are the best D in baseball you can’t have the worst offense and win. We at least need to be better than average on O like you said those teams were.

    You have hit a fundamental wall with a lot of people here. All of the available evidence points to the conclusion that a run saved is equal to a run scored. 1-0 counts as much as 15-0 and 8-7. If you believe that offense > defense, then you are going to run into people that disagree with you and your logic around here and other saber-friendly sites. You can believe it, and the anecdotal evidence of them Mariners may seem to support it (although I would argue that the runs we have punted on the basepaths and at catcher discredit that, as well as the fact that our worst hitter is the one that doesn’t field), but just don’t be surprised when people resist your analysis.

  124. joser on May 23rd, 2010 1:21 pm

    I’m a little late to the argument but think we need to dial back the rhetoric just a bit here. UZR generally takes much longer to stabilize than most hitting stats: the rule of thumb is typically three years’ worth of data. We have nothing like that for Lopez at 3B.

    That said, we have a fair bit of data for Tui at 3B in the minors, where he’s had 346 games at 3B at various levels; we don’t have UZR for that, but in 2008 when he played 108 games for Tacoma he was -9 runs according to Total Zone, which isn’t great. And of course we have eyeball data for Lopez at 3B so far this year, and if it doesn’t make quite as strong of a claim as UZR currently does I don’t think there’s any observer who hasn’t been impressed and surprised by Lopez’ ability at his new position.

    Offensively, we have plenty of data for both of them as well. And there’s no doubt Lopez is not currently living up to his history or his projections. How much of that is ordinary variance, how much is the distraction of learning a new position, and how much of it is the peculiarly Lopezian tendency to have match good half-seasons with bad ones, I don’t think anyone can say. Unless the new hitting coach can work miracles, there’s not much you can do — and the one thing managers have always done for a struggling hitter is to give him a day off. It can’t really hurt, it might help, and you have to do it from time to time anyway.

    But if you’re going to rest your starting infielders, you really should do it on days when your starting pitcher isn’t a groundballer; likewise, when you rest your starting outfielders you should do it on days when your starting pitcher isn’t a flyballer. Thus sitting Lopez (or Kotchman) today with Felix on the mound seems a little odd…. but it’s certainly not the oddest thing Wak has done with the lineups lately.

  125. Penace on May 23rd, 2010 1:22 pm

    I knew Griffey would DH today. Face it unless he retires or is DL’ed he is going to at minimum get 50% of the AB from the DH position. The rest of the lineup is just bizaare. Bradley cannot hold up physically in the field everyday, When he is DL’ed (along wth Jack Wilson) we can all bemoan that we didnt have a bench wich allowed days off for these two human egg shells.

  126. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:23 pm

    I wish Ichi would’ve taken “Ickstein” out of the game. The guys is killing us!

  127. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:23 pm

    Another thing that’s been disappointing about this years M’s is the lack of running game. Coming into the season, I was really looking forward to an Ichi Figgins one two punch of sb’s.

    I was looking forward to that too, but we have been treated to an absurdly aggressive running game, one that has cost us a fairly absurd number of outs. The problem has been that the runners have been guys like Wilson and Kotchman instead of Ichiro and Figgins

  128. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:24 pm

    Wakamatsu you freaking IDIOT! Bunt with Figgins! Or Steal or hit and run! Do SOMETHING! Our lineup is not even close to good enough to just sit back and wait for something to happen! DAMNIT!

  129. G-Man on May 23rd, 2010 1:26 pm

    Watching every game doesn’t make you right… Dayton Moore watches every game the Royals play and that hasn’t helped him. So does Ed Wade, Omar Minaya, and Steve Phillips.

    Good point – no, make that a great point.

  130. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:28 pm

    I think DMZ did a piece on this last year, but essentially, the penalty of the out a bunt likely generates is too high of price to pay for moving the runner over in the first inning. Essentially, bunting is playing for one run in an inning, which in the first inning is not the best tactical decision. The value of a single run relative to an out increases as the game goes on, so saving the outs that you are willing to sacrifice for later in the game is a more judicious use of the only finite resource in baseball.

  131. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 1:28 pm

    I knew Griffey would DH today. Face it unless he retires or is DL’ed he is going to at minimum get 50% of the AB from the DH position.

    Not to defend Griffey, but he hasn’t played in ages. He’s not even going to have 30% of the DH at bats the way he’s going.

  132. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 1:28 pm

    I knew Griffey would DH today. Face it unless he retires or is DL’ed he is going to at minimum get 50% of the AB from the DH position.

    Not to defend Griffey, but he hasn’t played in ages. He’s not even going to have 30% of the DH at bats the way he’s going.

  133. Marinersmanjk on May 23rd, 2010 1:28 pm

    Shit double post. Sorry.

  134. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:35 pm

    The Griffey situation, as understood pre-spring training, was that he would essentially be a 25th man, DH’ing occasionally and pinch hitting. Recently he has played less, which is good, and if he is on the roster he needs to get a few home starts. But again, why today? It forces Sweeney into the field and makes the lineup worse. Griffey should play on days that the lineup is Ichiro/Figgins/Guti/Bradley/Lopez/Kotchman/Bard/Griffey/Wilson (I like that our SS’s have the same name, makes lineups easier to put together since they are about equal with the stick IMO).

  135. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:36 pm

    I HATE ECKSTEIN!

  136. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:36 pm

    frickin eckstein….

  137. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:36 pm

    Well hit Milton, get it a little more towards center and that’s a solid single.

  138. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:37 pm

    Griffey almost hit to the pither’s mound…

  139. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:37 pm

    Gotta be honest though, as much as I hate Junior in the lineup and watching him hit these days, he still looks damn good in the batters box. I don’t see why he couldn’t be a great hitting coach, his swing is still technically perfect.

  140. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 1:39 pm

    Like I said, what we have been doing with pitching and defense is NOT winning games this year. You all are talking like we are over .500. We might have one of the best ERA’s in the league but it means nothing if you don’t hit and don’t win. When you keep games close, too many things need to go right. If you can build a cushion in games then not everyone needs to go perfect to get a win. I know it’s the in thing to hype defense right now but at some point we need offense. We had so many walk off wins last year that you could call lucky because we kept games close. We’re seeing this year that we overachieved greatly last year.

    Didn’t we give up more runs than we scored last year? I know it was close.

  141. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:39 pm

    And that’s another 1-2-3 inning…..*snore*

  142. trtlrock on May 23rd, 2010 1:40 pm

    These game threads could really use some comment moderation of late.

    Perhaps Jeff Nye is off that job, and I know DMZ is gone, but it’s really getting pretty grim.

    Is there some way to automate deletion of comments that reveal the poster has absolutely no knowledge about small sample sizes?

    How about deleting posts that incorporate >= two exclamation points in a row?

    Just dreamin’ — but it would be a good start…

  143. G-Man on May 23rd, 2010 1:42 pm

    House money lineup? Oh, no, that requires having won the series already.

    While this gang is defensively challenged, at least Wak will have the good sense to stick Kotch at 1B and maybe Saunders in LF with a late-inning lead. Whatever a late-inning lead is. :(

  144. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:47 pm

    These game threads could really use some comment moderation of late.

    Perhaps Jeff Nye is off that job, and I know DMZ is gone, but it’s really getting pretty grim.

    Is there some way to automate deletion of comments that reveal the poster has absolutely no knowledge about small sample sizes?

    How about deleting posts that incorporate >= two exclamation points in a row?

    Just dreamin’ — but it would be a good start…

    Just shut up, seriously.

  145. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:50 pm

    We might have one of the best ERA’s in the league but it means nothing if you don’t hit and don’t win. When you keep games close, too many things need to go right. If you can build a cushion in games then not everyone needs to go perfect to get a win.

    You get it half right, when you also look at what has actually happened. You are right that in close games, you rely too much on things going right to be confident in winning. Building a cushion is the way to win. The best rough predictor of wins is run differential. If you score a lot more than you give up you will win more. However, you can have a huge run differential generated by awesome pitching a defense or by great hitting. There is not one recipe to get here. You are right that we need to score more. But, to paraphrase Rick Pitino “A-Rod is not walking through that door. Griffey (circa 1995) is not walking through that door. Edgar is not walking through that door.” What we have is a roster that was hamstrung by a series of bad contracts from the last FO, and Jack Z has done a good job of getting us out from under most of those. Bradley is really the only albatross contract on the team, and he has the ability to be worth the money, plus he got rid of Silva for us (which probably saved us Bradley’s entire contract just on food savings). There isn’t some mystical hitter out there that we are ignoring. The guys on the team, for the most part, are the best hitters in the organization at the moment. The guy who would help us the most (Gonzalez), is currently playing for a team that is overachieving, meaning that his price would likely be way out of our range and willingness. I have some problems with Jack Z’s decisions this year (letting Wak keep two DH’s who think the position stands for Designated Hugger), but he has shown a great ability to VALUE talent. Even if this year is a sunk cost, I trust Jack Z to not make a panic trade and/or to make sure when he makes a deal, it is weighted in our favor (or at least addresses our needs effectively).

    I would love to see more offense, but if your solution is Tui!, then you will continue to be disappointed

  146. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:52 pm

    On a lighter note, Ichiro! is awesome

  147. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 1:53 pm

    Now Figgins shouldn’t bunt ;)

  148. Gomez on May 23rd, 2010 1:54 pm

    Is there some way to automate deletion of comments that reveal the poster has absolutely no knowledge about small sample sizes?

    How about deleting posts that incorporate >= two exclamation points in a row?

    Just dreamin’

    IMO mod queuing troll comments is fine, but deleting comments solely on the basis of technicalities or not falling in line with the incumbent data invites a whole other subset of problems for the moderation crew and the community that participates in these discussions.

    Wow, power is way down throughout baseball.

    The MLB average coming into today was 258/330/405, not far removed from the 2009 average of 262/333/418. That’s about a 1.1% decrease in total bases… not too much especially when you consider the cold early months generally aren’t as friendly to hitters. In other words, the lower averages strike me as a product of early season white noise.

  149. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:54 pm

    oh boy….another chance for Figgin’s….

  150. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 1:54 pm

    Trtlrock

    These comment threads are moderated nicely from my experience. Go read the lookoutlanding game thread for comparison. If people aren’t being complete ignorant asses, let them post. If you don’t like an opinion, ill-informed or not, just scroll past it.

  151. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 1:55 pm

    *sigh* What a joke.

  152. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:56 pm

    The MLB average coming into today was 258/330/405, not far removed from the 2009 average of 262/333/418. That’s about a 1.1% decrease in total bases… not too much especially when you consider the cold early months generally aren’t as friendly to hitters. In other words, the lower averages strike me as a product of early season white noise.

    Yea, I think I saw on Fangraphs someone took April/May data and found that it really does suppress offense. Anecdotally it jibes with players known as slow starters (funnily enough, Jose Lopez used be known as one of those guys, maybe the summer will heat him up)

  153. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 1:58 pm

    And, maybe Figgins has been affected by the cold. He’s used to Southern California, and as a resident, I can tell you that rain makes everyone bad at everything down here. Maybe he just needs some better weather to get in a groove.

    I know I am reaching, but DAMN he has been bad, and I don’t want to believe that he forgot how to hit.

  154. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 2:03 pm

    Just get one damn run, boys!!

  155. greentunic on May 23rd, 2010 2:06 pm

    haha, what good is a bunt hit attempt if you don’t run?

  156. mlathrop3 on May 23rd, 2010 2:06 pm

    I don’t think the cold has anything to do with all of the double plays he has hit into this year.

    In any case, you haven’t said Chone Figgins and thought “rally killer” in the past.

  157. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 2:06 pm

    why would one of our best hitters bunt is the real question

  158. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:06 pm

    Alec
    Its not inconceivable its had a small impact. I grew up in Hawaii and adapting to Washington weather takes awhile. My fingers, and toes are always cold up here, I wouldn’t want to swing a bat in 45 degree, high humidity weather.

  159. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 2:08 pm

    Well with Figgins, I told you, I’m reaching. He has never been this bad before. And I know that I suck at everything when it rains and I am from Southern California.

    (I know this is almost certainly not the reason. But I’ll hold onto it until July and hope)

  160. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:12 pm

    Sweeney swing’s at “ludicrous speed” when compared Griffeys. Ugh……

  161. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 2:13 pm

    griffey is still swinging….

  162. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 2:14 pm

    @spankystout: I know I am basing it on my experience. I grew up in Angels territory, but my family is entirely from Seattle and I spent my summers there as a kid (hence the Mariner’s fandom, I was at my most impressionable during the 1995 Refuse to Lose year and began following baseball avidly in 2001). I know that in Southern California, rain literally shuts everything down. People become terrible driver, walkers, no one goes outside, half of us don’t own umbrellas or water-repellant clothing besides our snow jackets. It rarely drops below 65 between March and November. I know Chone has played on the road in April, but he had always gotten to come home to the paradise-like weather of Orange County. Seattle is a beautiful city that can have some of the nicest days imaginable, but to someone from Southern California, it can also be miserable.

  163. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 2:16 pm

    Look they bunted! THAT is how you manage a baseball game!

  164. tmac9311 on May 23rd, 2010 2:18 pm

    I know I’m a little late, but hooray for having 4 defenders out of 8 positions. Weren’t we suppose to be a defensive team?? Johnson Sweeney Tui and Bradley IN THE FIELD. We should of just played Griffey in center and gave Guti the day off too.

  165. jefffrane on May 23rd, 2010 2:20 pm

    “That’s a ball that Rob should catch.” Well, d’oh. What is that position called again? Thanks for giving up a run, Rob.

  166. Penace on May 23rd, 2010 2:20 pm

    Thanks Rob. Cost us a run.

  167. Gregory on May 23rd, 2010 2:21 pm

    if Felix gets venable out, will that be an earned run even though it was RoJo’s fault?

  168. Swungonandbelted on May 23rd, 2010 2:23 pm

    So what’s the over/under line on the number of pitches it takes for Tui, RoJo, and Wilson to make 3 outs.. I’m betting under 8.5….

  169. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 2:25 pm

    Pull Rob NOW!!! A catcher that can’t catch. wtf? Its like having hitters that can’t hit….wait a minute. That sounds familiar too.

  170. Idaho M on May 23rd, 2010 2:27 pm

    Seriously, the Rob Johnson experiment has to end. He is NOT a major league player.

  171. beaudini13 on May 23rd, 2010 2:27 pm

    WTF? Do we need Donald Trump to come get rid of no-catch Johnson?

  172. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:29 pm

    I can’t believe Josh Bard is the best C on this team. Another Ugh.

  173. Pilate on May 23rd, 2010 2:29 pm

    Am I watching a Bugs Bunny cartoon?

  174. dman2185 on May 23rd, 2010 2:30 pm

    The Mariners are very sad.

  175. beaudini13 on May 23rd, 2010 2:31 pm

    Felix should lay Johnson out before the start of the inning.

  176. littlesongs on May 23rd, 2010 2:31 pm

    With 6 out of 63 miscues, Rob Johnson accounts for over 9.5% percent of all passed balls in the major leagues.

  177. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 2:32 pm

    I really cannot fathom how bad this team is. Why must we all suffer another bad summer of crap a** baseball?

  178. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 2:36 pm

    Half of the Padres runs the last two games have come via passed balls, either directly like last night or indirectly like today.

    Johnson needs to go when Moore comes back.

  179. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 2:38 pm

    God damnit Rob Johnson! LEARN HOW TO BLOCK A PITCH!

  180. Penace on May 23rd, 2010 2:39 pm

    Its just funny at this point. Call it a wild pitch if you must, but a catcher blocks that ball. Seriously pathetic. He has to go.

  181. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 2:39 pm

    Maybe he should have never had the eye surgery.

  182. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:41 pm

    Yeah its frustrating to watch especially when Miguel Olivo, Torrealba, Johjima , etc…
    would be better options. Damn you Bavasi!!!! I need a Bavasi-face, on a punching bag, in my garage.

  183. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 2:43 pm

    Mariners should have signed Pudge Rodriguez in the offseason and had him split with Adam Moore and help him teach Moore. I hate Rob Johnson.

  184. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 2:47 pm

    They could have signed any catcher.

    Seriously, Rob Johnson is the worst catcher I’ve ever seen, at any level. Any “catcher” that showed those kinds of “skills” would have been moved from behind the plate years ago.

    I don’t get how he’s gotten this far. He can’t catch the ball, which is a pretty fundamental part of the position.

  185. Pilate on May 23rd, 2010 2:48 pm

    Who is that pitching for the Padres today? Don Drysdale? Looks like a Cy Young candidate.

  186. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:48 pm

    Its time to hire Dan Wilson as the catching instructor full-time. He knew how to prepare, call a game, and play D. He is already working for FSN just tell him leave the suit, we have one for you. (wishful thinking)

  187. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 2:51 pm

    Yeah a walk! I love walks, and sometimes the Wak.

  188. Mike G. on May 23rd, 2010 2:59 pm

    Apparently Wak is already waving the white flag. Colome is warming up in the pen.

  189. King.Dome on May 23rd, 2010 3:00 pm

    Wow, Silva went to 6-0 today. Don’t get me wrong, I liked that trade at the time and I still like it, but it’s crazy to see that record next to his name.

  190. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:01 pm

    Another run on Johnson.

  191. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:01 pm

    Nice throw, ya douche.

  192. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:01 pm

    They could have signed any catcher.

    This is the insane thing. Johnson can’t hit either. He can’t hit. He can’t catch. The only thing he seems to have going for him is that he happened to start squatting behind the plate when Felix started dealing last summer (I refuse to call what Johnson does catching). They literally could have signed any generic catcher, equaled Johnson’s offensive output of 0 (on a good day), and had someone who can block a damn pitch and hold onto the ball. Look at how nice it has been having Josh Bard behind the plate. We don’t care even a little bit how well he hits, since Johnson can’t hit either (although he has been an improvement), but he looks like he was forced to ACTUALLY CATCH before he was given a job.

  193. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 3:02 pm

    Rob Johnson is by FAR more of the reason we are having a awful season than Griffey is. EVERYONE should be on Rob instead of Griffey.

  194. IHaveALittleProject on May 23rd, 2010 3:03 pm

    At my 2nd game this year. So far: 6 hits, 0 runs in 15 innings.

  195. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:04 pm

    remember when Vidro was here and we called his position “DH” and his handedness 0? I move to declare Rob Johnson’s position S (for Squats) and move his handedness to 0 (since his best case at bat involves him not swinging and at least forcing the pitcher to throw 3 pitches at minimum).

  196. matthew on May 23rd, 2010 3:04 pm

    I’m still trying to figure out why Sweeney hugged it out with Venable after Venable was safe at first.

    Also, Rob Johnson is now batting clean-up on Twitter.

  197. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:04 pm

    Johnson 2
    San Diego 1
    Seattle 0

  198. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:04 pm

    It was prolly Johnson who ratted on Griffey sleeping to buy himself some time before everyone caught on to his lack of skill and production.

  199. Hammy57 on May 23rd, 2010 3:07 pm

    It was prolly Johnson who ratted on Griffey sleeping to buy himself some time before everyone caught on to his lack of skill and production.

    I wouldn’t doubt it. It probably was.

  200. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:07 pm

    Rob Johnson is by FAR more of the reason we are having a awful season than Griffey is. EVERYONE should be on Rob instead of Griffey.

    I would say they were equal until Griffey’s PT went down. Both play a position whose ONLY expectation is explicit in its name: CATCHer and Designater HITTER (catchers don’t have to hit to justify their job since catcher are often poor hitters). Both cannot do what their position explicitly describes as their role. If Griffey’s PT goes down, then I agree he is less of a problem than Johnson. But given that it is easier to find a league average DH than a league average catcher, given equal PT, the edge for me leans slightly towards Junior.

    But I hate Rob Johnson more.

  201. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:09 pm

    Assuming Bard is now the everyday catcher and Sweeney is the 80% of the time DH (and continues to produce), the onus is now on how Wak manages the roster day-to-day.

    Today was not a great showcase.

  202. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:11 pm

    Why in the world didn’t they pinch run for Jr?

  203. ndrfx on May 23rd, 2010 3:12 pm

    I know, where was the PR? That’s a run guaranteed! Good job Tui.

  204. matthew on May 23rd, 2010 3:13 pm

    Why in the hell is Johnson swinging at ANY pitches?

  205. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 3:15 pm

    Yay its not another shutout.

  206. matthew on May 23rd, 2010 3:15 pm

    Nice. Colome is up in the pen. Time to switch over to Million Dollar Baby.

  207. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 3:15 pm

    Tui almost homered to right and get’s a double…how many balls to right does Lopez hit, just curious.

  208. Kazinski on May 23rd, 2010 3:16 pm

    Griffey, Tui, Johnson, the heart of our offense. Now lets see if Wilson comes through.

  209. kenshabby on May 23rd, 2010 3:16 pm

    What’s Felix’s run support this season? 0.7? 0.6?

  210. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:17 pm

    Id walk Ichi if I were the Padres

  211. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:18 pm

    2nd & 3rd, nobody out, and we get one fucking run.

  212. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 3:24 pm

    Jesus pitching on Sunday?

  213. Grayfox3d on May 23rd, 2010 3:25 pm

    How much longer do we gotta watch Colome pitch until they realize he just isnt good…

  214. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:25 pm

    Well, and the whole issue of Sweeney being 80 % of the DH. We have a weak defensive LF with known durability issues whose best season came as a DH, plus we have a good defense OF prospect who has shown potential at the MLB level (Saunders), as well as another serviceable 4th OF in Langerhans. Bradley should be DH’ing a good 75 % of the time with a few appearances in LF to get Jr. some home starts, and Saunders should be playing LF 75 % of the time with Langerhans resting the whole OF (and maybe even Kotchman, he didn’t look bad over there).

    Sweeney is hot, but he and Griffey are two of the most inflexible players in the league, and carrying the two of them is plays the team at a distinct disadvantage in late innings (we should never be in a spot to have to pinch hit for our DH).

    I know I am beating a dead horse, but with what we have our lineup should be
    Ichiro RF
    Figgins 2b
    Guti CF
    Bradley DH/some LF
    Lopez 3B
    Kotchman 1B
    Saunders LF
    Bard C
    Wilson SS

    our bench should be Langerhans playing about 20 % of the LF starts and giving the other OF’s rest days, a backup catcher (solve the Johnson issue NOW), Griffey playing DH about 20 % of the time and the other days fill it with whoever needs rest, and Sweeney should be gone.

    Talent wise Griffey should be gone, but it seems like the FO will never do that and I guess it could be PR nightmare. And as the 25th man he is much less of a detriment to the team. But the pairing of Griffey and Sweeney on this roster is our biggest problem, so someone needs to go. If they won’t dump Griffey, its gotta be Sweeney. We can keep Tui to back up Lopez or when Jack Wilson comes back keep Josh up to give us a real back up SS (or maybe get a Hannahan sighting). Or stick with a 6 man pen and keep Tui and Josh. Like Jeff said the other day, Jack Z spent the offseason building the most versatile roster in baseball and then blew it all to hell with the Sweeney/Griffey tandem.

  215. kuptain on May 23rd, 2010 3:26 pm

    how many balls to right does Lopez hit, just curious.

    Good point. He rarely hits to right field anymore. I remember a couple years back when he was having some batting struggles, the hitting coach made him hit to right field more and you know what? He got his batting average up to around .290! And I’d betcha that if he (and a few other M’s) started to do this again, they’d see better batting results.

  216. ndrfx on May 23rd, 2010 3:27 pm

    Jesus Colome is really good.

  217. Swungonandbelted on May 23rd, 2010 3:27 pm

    Hrm, “Colome” and “DFA” have a similar sound to them…

  218. jefffrane on May 23rd, 2010 3:28 pm

    I don’t think I want to watch this.

  219. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:28 pm

    Tui almost homered to right and get’s a double…how many balls to right does Lopez hit, just curious.

    Lopez hit 20 HR’s almost exclusively to left after June 1st last year. Homers to left count the same as homers to right.

  220. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:28 pm

    colome is a joke too. Please get that fool outta there and send his a** packing.

  221. mlathrop3 on May 23rd, 2010 3:29 pm

    Wak had a coming to get Jesus moment there

  222. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 3:30 pm

    Lopez used to hit through the right side. Then he learned how to become an over-aggressive-pull-happy hitter. Most likely due to his HR totals encouraging him that he is some sort of a power hitter.

  223. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:30 pm

    How about a passed ball for a run? Who’s with me?

  224. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 3:30 pm

    I hate our team right now.

    I don’t care what Buhner thinks right now about Griffey or anyone else.

  225. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:31 pm

    Lopez is not incredibly strong, and most of his power is to left, which is why a lot of people have argued that he would be a more effective player outside of Seattle, where power to left is punished and power to right is rewarded (see Beltre, Adrian and Branyan, Russell, although Russ was legitimately strong as an ox). Lopez is at his most effective when he is able to pull the ball, since he hits it hardest to left. Some guys have good gap power, some have good opposite field power, others have better pull power. You want to maximize your specific skill set.

  226. MX on May 23rd, 2010 3:31 pm

    We just have to accept this season is over and start to sell. Period.

  227. Swungonandbelted on May 23rd, 2010 3:32 pm

    Game over.

  228. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 3:32 pm

    Alec, I agree with you, but the fact is that for whatever reason Wak won’t put Bradley at DH and give Saunders any time at all.

    I was guessing based on what’s happening, not what should happen, but I guess it was dumb to then say it was on Wak since it’s on Wak that we’re in this position in the first place.

  229. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:33 pm

    For people who think Lopez old approach was better, last season was his best offensive season, and it involved him pulling the ball constantly. I think he should stick to it.

  230. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:33 pm

    Agreed. Season done. Start the fire sale.

  231. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 3:33 pm

    Well god is punishing the M’s for disrupting Jesus and his ‘day of rest.’

  232. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:34 pm

    I wish everyone would just boo the last inning and a half.

  233. tdubs206 on May 23rd, 2010 3:35 pm

    Fuck this team. I’m sooooo tired of this shit. I admittedly started getting my hopes up after the last two wins. I’m done.
    FUCK OFF!!!!!!!

  234. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:35 pm

    And now Rowland-Smith is warming up for the Padres late inning BP.

  235. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:36 pm

    @Paul L: he going to have to play Saunders in LF soon, or else send him down. A prospect like that can’t be riding the bench, and a player development expert like Jack Z knows that and won’t allow it to happen. I think after Griffey’s game winner the other day, he is getting some PT at home to capitalize on the buzz (dumb, but their reasoning for keeping him is ticket sales, so it makes some sense). Sweeney can’t play every day either, so hopefully when some time has passed, Bradley gets some DH reps and Saunders can get some play.

    Or they will send him down and piss us all off

  236. Grayfox3d on May 23rd, 2010 3:36 pm

    so whats our over/under on another 100 loss season….

  237. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:37 pm

    I hope that bastard Colome is packing his shit right now

  238. Rick Banjo on May 23rd, 2010 3:38 pm

    That hurts. Bad.

    The best athletes/people/minds know when to say something is over. I don’t think Griff is the only guy in the organization who has to swallow that pill, but it’s time to start posting bright red FOR SALE signs on the FAs who can bring us something in return.

    Game over.

    ps- Dear Mr. Colome,

    FUCK OFF.

    Love,

    Rbjo.

  239. ABP52380 on May 23rd, 2010 3:41 pm

    I’m done too. They are just terrible. Rob Johnson sucks. Griffey sucks. Our shortstops suck. There really is nothing fun about watching this team. I hate it. I really do.

    Blow it up. Trade Lee. Kick Rojo in the balls. Make Griffey retire. Today. Boycott the team.

    I’m so pissed.

  240. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:42 pm

    When the upper management going to start holding the players and Mr. Cool Hand Luke accountable for this pathetic excuse for a baseball performance.

  241. Jay R. on May 23rd, 2010 3:44 pm

    I for one am shocked that the combination of a shit show lineup coupled with terrible game management brought about such a beating. Shocked.

  242. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 3:44 pm

    Thank you Mariners another shit sandwhich served up hot and steamy.

  243. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 3:48 pm

    When the upper management going to start holding the players and Mr. Cool Hand Luke accountable for this pathetic excuse for a baseball performance.

    When the team starts LOSING money and fans stop going to games because of 1995.

    OR if/when the Mariners decided to do what the Sounders do and let fans vote on the fate of the GM every 4 years (which has NO chance in hell of happening).

  244. ABP52380 on May 23rd, 2010 3:51 pm

    This little experiment of defense and pitching is fine and dandy in theory. However, if you have no offense it matters not that the opposing team scores 1 run. This team has too many holes and is playing with ZERO confidence. The Felix of last year – pounding his mit and yelling with intensity – has been quieted by the glaring reality that no matter how he pitches he’s going to get no run support.

    The off season analysis about last seasons run differential – runs scored vs runs allowed – was spot on. We all knew they over achieved last year and this year it’s hit home with a resounding thud.

    I hate this. I really hate this. I just had a mock conversation – with myself – as though I was talking to the front office. That can’t be good.

  245. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 3:53 pm

    The season is pretty close to a lost cause. We are still only 8 GB at the moment though, so I don’t think FIRESALE is exactly what we should be going for. Knowing Jack Z, he has been taking and making calls about Lee, Lopez, and the bullpen (unfortunately they are really our only assets worth trading, as the guys who would draw interest all are either team controlled or have team friendly contracts) for a while now. But sticking as close as we have given how badly we have played means we probably should not just be dumping guys.

    Lee’s value will go up as he continues to pitch like the ace he is and contenders look to add someone like him (If the Padres keep playing decently, teams that would have gone after Gonzalez may shift their attention to Lee).

    Lopez has hit terribly, but he has demonstrated that he can play 3rd, which increases his market. With Lopez, I am sure Jack is going to wait as long as possible and hope that he heats up a little and can draw some interest from teams that need a 3B on a decent contract.

    Bullpen arms always become more valuable right at the deadline as teams with weak bullpens get seduced by guys pitching well on the year and the FA pool begins to dry up (Think the Rhodes trade a few years ago).

    Other than that, who do we try to dump? Obviously Felix, Ichiro, and Guti are untouchable. Figgins won’t draw much interest right now and they aren’t going to cut bait on that now. Jack Wilson maybe if he gets healthy. Kotchman is in about the same boat as Lopez, if he starts hitting, he might have some value to teams that need help at the corner. Bradley’s market is non-existent unless you take back an albatross contract, which the M’s won’t do. No one will touch Rob Johnson, Bard is a generic catcher. Griffey and Sweeney would not have a job if not for the M’s. The back end starters are all club controlled (although if we could sell high on Fister and get a real return for him I say go for it) and assets, the type of prospects that they would yield in return so no point in shuffling deck chairs. Who else do we have to trade? The only other idea I have is Moore, maybe some team thinks they can fix him and teach him to catch, but his bat should play if he learns to catch so I don’t think we should just dump him. Maybe Hannahan for a C-level prospect?

    We simply don’t have anyone beyond Lee, Lopez, Kotchman and the bullpen that will draw interest, and all of those guys values will increase as the deadline approaches

  246. Penace on May 23rd, 2010 3:55 pm

    Count me as among the growing number of Wak doubters. Rubber game at home on a Sunday Matinee, aleady at a point in the season where things are critical and every game is of maximum value. Felix is starting this must win game, and we trot out the most laughable and ridiculous line-up I think I have ever seen. Punting ABs, Games, series, and seasons is awesome!

  247. Henry Cotto Salami on May 23rd, 2010 3:57 pm

    Did Jr. just square to bunt on a 0-1 count with no one on? WTF?

  248. UncleCharlie on May 23rd, 2010 4:00 pm

    Thank God there is no game tomorrow

  249. mlathrop3 on May 23rd, 2010 4:00 pm

    I for one am shocked that the combination of a shit show lineup coupled with terrible game management brought about such a beating. Shocked.

    I just love the term “shit show”. I think it applies perfectly to this situation. Kudos, sir.

  250. Pilate on May 23rd, 2010 4:00 pm

    Griffey trying to bunt his way on. Desperation is officially out there for all to see.

  251. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 4:03 pm

    there is something that I think gets underrated as people blame the lack of offense for the season and bash the pitching and defense combo. Pitching and defense and no offense means that to win, you must maximize every aspect of a bad offense, since it is true that you cannot win without scoring a single run. However, if your pitching and defense consistently keeps runs scored by the other team below 3, a bad offense can win, IF it is optimized.

    The Mariners built a team with bad (and unlucky) offense and good pitching and defense. They then proceeded to ignore optimization of this offense. We could have not had Griffey and Sweeney on the roster, instead DH’ing Bradley and platooning Saunders/Langerhans/Byrnes in left and keeping flexibility for the late innings by having actual pinch runners and pinch hitters. We could have immediately batted Guti 3rd and Bradley cleanup. We could not have Rob Johnson on the roster, eliminating a significant number of runs given up by his pathetic squatting. We could have stayed aggressive on the basepaths, but intelligently (letting Ichiro and Figgins run wild, and Guti/Saunders/Langerhans occassionally, but everyone else, be smart). We could have a backup shortstop so that we don’t wind up punting defense some days by making Tui scramble around there. We could not ever use Sean White and Jesus Colome. Our bullpen could have been Kaneoke, Kelley, Lowe, League, Aardsma, and a long man. While it is easy to blame things on the offense, the M’s took a roster of players built to optimize the performance of the pitchers and defense and score about as many runs as it did last year, and decided that optimizing the number of runs they scored and prevented didn’t matter and that they would instead pass out playing time based on Wak’s gold stars

  252. tdubs206 on May 23rd, 2010 4:03 pm

    Can somebody tell Salk to bring Kenji home with him?

  253. Alec on May 23rd, 2010 4:08 pm

    Yea, I have gone from a major Wak believer to a big time doubter. I think he could be a good manager for a Billy Beane style team where most of the decisions are made upstairs and the manager is left to make in game decisions. He needs to have his pets taken away and just given the best 25 players that Jack Z thinks he has, as well as some guidelines as to who can play where. He can manage people pretty well, but apparently he can’t figure out who should play.

  254. jryoung222 on May 23rd, 2010 4:22 pm

    I’d like a belief system we can believe in. Like, can Wak and the FO start believing in winning, and do everything they need to do to make that happen? Dave’s gone over the particulars of what needs to be done ad nauseum. Why can’t they see what needs to be done? It’s so damn, bloody obvious.

    I don’t think I’ve been this pissed at a Mariners team maybe ever, because the fixes, the ones that could get us easily another 5-10 wins over the course of the season, are easy, but because of their fricking “belief system” (which I guess means “respecting” veterans – Griffey/Sweeney – and being enamored with personalities and grittiness – Johnson – and relievers in whom they see something, but no one else does – White, Colome), they stubbornly refuse to change and so continue to sit and watch while the season spins down the toilet.

    All the good will that Z and Wak generated last year is completely gone for me. They’re starting from square one at this point. They now have to show us fans that they know what they’re doing, because last year is looking like a fluke.

  255. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 4:49 pm

    I’g guessing we’re not going to get game recaps anymore as Dave prepares to get his rage on.

  256. argh on May 23rd, 2010 4:51 pm

    I truly, truly hope attendance collapses down to the people with knitting bags and yappy little dogs. The owners of this team deserve no more.

  257. smb on May 23rd, 2010 4:52 pm

    Missed the game and the game thread…fortunately, it seems. Once I saw the lineup I decided to go for a walk…good choice. Nice epic backpedaling by SODOMOJO on this thread, though…

  258. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 4:55 pm

    Attendance has already collapsed. Other than weekend giveaways/promotions, no one’s going to the games.

  259. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 5:05 pm

    I truly, truly hope attendance collapses down to the people with knitting bags and yappy little dogs. The owners of this team deserve no more.

    Now excuse us while us Americans are playing on our Nintendo Wii systems and our 80+ year-old owner in Japan and Howard Lincoln are laughing their asses all the way to the bank.

  260. JMHawkins on May 23rd, 2010 5:05 pm

    there is something that I think gets underrated as people blame the lack of offense for the season and bash the pitching and defense combo.

    Alec is spot on with this. The problem isn’t that the team had a plan emphasizing pitching and defenese with only mediocre offense. It’s that the team isn’t following through on the plan. It’s punting offensive upgrades (that wouldn’t impact the defense) and undermining the pitching and defense with bad lineups and bullpen useage.

    Zduriencik is not making the hard choices “The Plan” requires, and Wak doesn’t seem to have a clue what the plan was in the first place.

    Unless of course the whole thing is Zduriencik’s evil plot to restore the bargain status of defense next year by convincing the rest of the league it doesn’t work this year.

  261. jephdood on May 23rd, 2010 5:07 pm

    I truly, truly hope attendance collapses down to the people with knitting bags and yappy little dogs. The owners of this team deserve no more.

    What exactly does the ownership group have to do with the failure of this team?

  262. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 5:15 pm

    What exactly does the ownership group have to do with the failure of this team?

    Look no further than the Bavasi years. It was PAINFULLY obvious by the end of 2.5 years that Bavasi was not going to be the right guy as GM as he continued to waste more and more money on bad baseball.

    But Armstrong and Lincoln didn’t care because this team SOMEHOW improved its win total every year under Bavasi until 2008 and more importantly, turned a profit until 2008.

    Now as a result, we are so far behind everyone else as far as minor league talent goes, it’s mind boggling.

    Armstrong always seems to live in his own little version of Pleasantville and in this case, as far as we know, he seems perfectly okay with a slumping Griffey on the roster and a “family guy” manager that doesn’t dare argue with a umpire and show any fire under his belly.

    Because that would cause in-fighting between Wak and Armstrong/Lincoln, and we wouldn’t want to have that now, would we?

    And plus, the Mariners are still “leaders” in Armstrong’s eyes as far as community work and corporate sponsorships thanks to that amazing 1995 run (cue Rick Rizzs reminiscing).

    LONG STORY SHORT:
    ——————
    This franchise is SO far behind everyone else as far as minor league talent goes and no rosters will get blown up or heads will roll this year because this organization is too damn patient and too damn content with its work to think about making extreme changes.

    That’s why it will never be anything close to what the Yankees or Red Sox are for at least the foreseeable future.

  263. jephdood on May 23rd, 2010 5:27 pm

    None of those people are ownership. Ownership is cutting checks for $93 million this year.

  264. ChrisK on May 23rd, 2010 5:27 pm

    Attendance has already collapsed. Other than weekend giveaways/promotions, no one’s going to the games.

    The Mariners are still on track to draw over 2 million fans this year. Attendance has declined just 4% from last year, and the summer crowds haven’t started coming in.

  265. flashbeak on May 23rd, 2010 5:29 pm

    Not even remotely true.

    There Ramirez is worse, and a few are close, at 3B alone.

    To begin, Aramis Ramirez in the NL. I said AL. Secondly, you’re wrong. Since you obviously didn’t revert to the link I posted earlier, I’ll just put it in words for you. Using value metrics, his hitting comes in at -13.8, second worst only to Aramis Ramirez’s -15.3. Pedro Feliz, Akinori Iwamura, and Jose Reyes are 3rd, 4th, and 5th respectively. The next worst AL hitter is Gordon Beckham, who has posted a -10.3. Not such a miniscule margin. What does that make Jose Lopez? The player with the least hitting value in the AL to date.

    This obviously isn’t to say that his raw hitting talent is worst in the AL. He’ll get a nice little kick in the rear from positive regression, as his BABIP checks in at .237, which is clearly low.

    In the meantime, here’s a nice little writeup.

  266. mlathrop3 on May 23rd, 2010 5:30 pm

    Today’s Free Pick:

    Seattle (Hernandez) -1.5 Runs (+145) / San Diego (Latos) 4:10 ET 1.25 Units
    (Play ON Mariners (RL) w/Listed pitchers)

    That was in my spam email as the “free play of the day”… HA!

  267. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 5:31 pm

    None of those people are ownership. Ownership is cutting checks for $93 million this year.

    But “ownership” won’t fire these idiots (Armstrong/Lincoln).

    So say what you want about Nintendo or our 80+ year old owner, but they deserve part of the blame for this crap too.

  268. Koala on May 23rd, 2010 5:32 pm

    None of those people are ownership. Ownership is cutting checks for $93 million this year.

    Which is why it doesn’t matter to them whether the team wins or loses. Only we, the fans, can change that. Make it matter, STOP GOING TO GAMES – they will always only care about $$$, but we need to make the existence of those $$$ contingent upon the team winning.

  269. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 5:33 pm

    Nintendo never has fired our idiots and probably didn’t even know who Bill Bavasi was. They just saw the bottom line.

  270. Koala on May 23rd, 2010 5:36 pm

    The Mariners are still on track to draw over 2 million fans this year. Attendance has declined just 4% from last year, and the summer crowds haven’t started coming in.

    That is sad.

  271. scott19 on May 23rd, 2010 5:41 pm

    My only chirp for today’s pathetic “game” is that, with any luck, it has moved Colome from DGC (Designated Gas Can) to DFA status.

    This franchise is SO far behind everyone else as far as minor league talent goes and no rosters will get blown up or heads will roll this year because this organization is too damn patient and too damn content with its work to think about making extreme changes.

    That’s why it will never be anything close to what the Yankees or Red Sox are for at least the foreseeable future.

    I think you about nailed it there, Tom. While it sucks and is frustrating as all hell from our perspective as fans, there seems to be little we can do about it except hope that this current bunch eventually turns the reins over to competent people.

    As far as the Yanks or Saux-type “dynasty” is concerned, I’d be happy if these guys would just win a pennant and World Series once in my lifetime before I’m too old to enjoy it — though I don’t if that’s ever going to happen, either.

  272. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 5:44 pm

    Before we go too far overboard, can I remind people that while we’re not doing great this year, Z’s primary goal was to get out from under the terrible contracts of the Bavasi era in order to start building the organization from the ground up.

    There was a *hope* that the Ms would contend this year, but I’d be willing to bet that if you asked the FO whether they’d rather get rid of the legacy baggage over contending this year they’d take getting rid of the baggage every time.

    And let’s be real: We’re all frustrated and impatient, but when the Ms start winning again we’ll all be there.

  273. Paul L on May 23rd, 2010 5:46 pm

    That’s why it will never be anything close to what the Yankees or Red Sox are for at least the foreseeable future.

    We will NEVER get close to consistently matching Boston or NY. They have way more financial resources than we could ever dream about.

    Best case: we’re the third best team in the AL every year, or second if one of those two is rebuilding.

  274. scott19 on May 23rd, 2010 5:47 pm

    Which is why it doesn’t matter to them whether the team wins or loses. Only we, the fans, can change that. Make it matter, STOP GOING TO GAMES – they will always only care about $$$, but we need to make the existence of those $$$ contingent upon the team winning.

    While part of me likes that sentiment, even that may not help. After all, the A’s — win or lose — have had suckworthy attendance for most of their 40+ years in Oakland…and yet nobody has succeeded in either boosting their gate on a long-term basis or moving them to someplace more profitable.

  275. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 5:47 pm

  276. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 5:48 pm

    <strikeThat is sad.

  277. jephdood on May 23rd, 2010 5:48 pm

    If people stop going to games, and ownership starts to lose money, which direction do you think they’ll go?

    A) Reduce payroll to maintain profitability at cost of on-field product
    B) Raise payroll to meet demands/expectations of fanbase
    C) Sell team

    My guess is A. Not going to games because the product sucks is one thing. But not going in order to force some kind of action in the ‘right’ direction is naive.

  278. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 5:49 pm

    how do you use that blue line to copy what someone else said?

  279. Harrison on May 23rd, 2010 6:00 pm

    We need a little John McClaren…”The fans are pissed off…I’m pissed off…and the players are pissed off.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1NclalCOA&feature=related

    Oh how true this is right now.

  280. argh on May 23rd, 2010 6:12 pm

    Not going to games because the product sucks is one thing. But not going in order to force some kind of action in the ‘right’ direction is naive.

    The two things are not unrelated. Cf. General Motors except substitute ‘Buying cars’ for ‘going to games’.

  281. flashbeak on May 23rd, 2010 6:33 pm

    We need a little John McClaren…”The fans are pissed off…I’m pissed off…and the players are pissed off.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1NclalCOA&feature=related

    Oh how true this is right now.

    I’m not too sure how pissed off Griffey is with this team’s situation. If he was really that pissed, he’d hang up his damn cleats.

  282. scott19 on May 23rd, 2010 6:37 pm

    A) Reduce payroll to maintain profitability at cost of on-field product
    B) Raise payroll to meet demands/expectations of fanbase
    C) Sell team

    My guess would be probably first A, then C — which was kind of the situation back in the 80′s with this team.

    Not to mention, more recently with the Sonics — and, sadly, we all know what happened to that franchise.

  283. pgreyy on May 23rd, 2010 6:49 pm

    We need a little John McClaren…”The fans are pissed off…I’m pissed off…and the players are pissed off.”

    Because, as we all remember, THAT changed EVERYTHING and made everything all better…

    (And, it looks like the recent Wak ejection can only be claimed to have earned the team two wins–if you buy into things like that. So, we’ll need at least 35-40 more ejections to salvage the season, huh?)

    Last year, I felt there was a method to the madness. It made me feel confident.

    This year…it feels like there’s only madness.

    Makes me feel icky.

  284. SODOMOJO360 on May 23rd, 2010 7:40 pm
  285. low on May 23rd, 2010 8:07 pm

    Wow, everyone needs to relax. The Padres are basically the M’s – a team geared around pitching, defense, and speed. The fact is they’re playing better baseball than the M’s and that’s why they took two of three at Safeco.

    If you think the season’s over, complaining about it here might make you feel a bit better, but I think we’re blowing up about one bad game (admittedly, not the first).

    The M’s are what they are this year, which is third-fourth place in the AL West unless they get a big winning streak going.

  286. spankystout on May 23rd, 2010 8:29 pm

    When Fister and Vargas regress, around that time some of the batters may as well. Which means the team will be in the same mediocre condition. Those with hope are adorable in their hope, but a 5% chance to make the playoffs makes these hopes unrealistic.

  287. Diehard on May 23rd, 2010 9:20 pm

    Ugh this team makes me want to puke sometimes….

  288. Koala on May 23rd, 2010 9:35 pm

    If people stop going to games, and ownership starts to lose money, which direction do you think they’ll go?

    A) Reduce payroll to maintain profitability at cost of on-field product
    B) Raise payroll to meet demands/expectations of fanbase
    C) Sell team

    My guess is A. Not going to games because the product sucks is one thing. But not going in order to force some kind of action in the ‘right’ direction is naive.

    C would be the best thing that could possibly happen to this team, sell it to an owner that actually cares

  289. JMHawkins on May 23rd, 2010 9:43 pm

    The M’s were 11-12 in the month of April. They lost 2-0 to Texas in Cliff Lee’s brilliant Mariner debut (7 IP, 3 H, 8 K, 0BB, 0R) to close out the month. It prompted Dave to point out the team had major problems that needed fixing, and if they weren’t fixed soon, they were going to start losing because May was a tougher schedule.

    The M’s didn’t make any major changes. Bradley imploded, Lowe, Moore, and Jack Wilson got hurt, Griffey got caught napping, and the team sacrificed Byrnes for not being able to sacrifice, and then the hitting coach because they had to look like they were doing something. But fundamentally they kept the same inflexible roster, the same lineups, and the same poor useage patterns for relievers and defenders. All they did was react to injuries and toss a couple of fall guys under the bus.

    Their record in May so far is 5 – 16. To a certain extent, May is the 2008 season to April’s imitation of 2007. Good luck let a flawed team think it was doing okay, and then the luck took a vacation and the weaknesses were exposed.

    Fixing the problems three weeks ago could have made a major difference. But they squandered the gift they got in April by…

    Oh, what the hell’s the use? They’re stuck on stupid. They screwed around long enough that fixing the problems doesn’t matter any more. Let ‘em have their damned bobblehead nights and play 1995 highlights for eternity. I’m going to take Cliff Lee’s approach – find another team as fast as I can. This one is a joke.

  290. JMHawkins on May 23rd, 2010 9:49 pm

    C would be the best thing that could possibly happen to this team, sell it to an owner that actually cares

    And you know what? After this year, after 2008, after all the crap since 2004, I don’t care.

    Let ‘em sell it to that jackass from Oklahoma and reunite them with the Sonics (or Thunderchickens, or whatever they are now). Move to Florida, move to Mexico City, move to Roland-Smith’s hometown in Australia. Let Bud Selig move them to Milwaukee and merge them with the Brewers so maybe they can get one decent team out of the two of them. Auction them off and use the proceeds to keep the Ranger’s solvent, at least they’re trying and their damned bankrupt.

    I don’t care. Be gone. Good riddance.

  291. kenshabby on May 23rd, 2010 10:00 pm

    The Seawaukee Brewiners…now that’s a team I could get behind.

  292. jryoung222 on May 23rd, 2010 10:04 pm

    The only thing worse than angry fans are fans that are resigned and just don’t care anymore. Unfortunately, we have the latter. I was at the game last night, and it was clear that we have a fanbase that is just resigned to a lost season and are not willing to let the Mariners know about it by, you know, booing or yelling a little; letting their frustration out. And the thing is, I think a lot of that has to do with the resigned, passive stance of our manager. Hell, if he isn’t going to get pissed at things and show some fire, why should we?

  293. pinball1973 on May 23rd, 2010 10:04 pm

    Didn’t watch this. Saw the score and Ichiro’s two hits, no RBI or RS.

    Fuck this team, this season.

    That is all.

  294. TomTuttle on May 23rd, 2010 10:39 pm

    And the thing is, I think a lot of that has to do with the resigned, passive stance of our manager

    Not Wak, but NINTENDO. Which takes us down to Chuck and Howard. What has Nintendo done or ever will do for us (the actual fans) since Pinella left in ’02 starting the breakup of our
    good teams here?

    Nothing. That’s what.

    Obviously we have to thank the Nintendo people for helping us keep the team here, but this marriage is working less and less with each passing year.

    So if Nintendo doesn’t really care about us (Seattle fans), why should fans bother buying season tickets or booing in the stands and showing some passion?

  295. pdome01 on May 24th, 2010 4:55 am

    I don’t get it. This is a Stadium that is easier to pitch in and harder to hit in. Shouldn’t we be getting guys that know how to hit because of that and let are average Starters just pitch to contact. We don’t even need number one and two starters. I know that you can’t win play off games and the World Series without good defense and pitching but why don’t we just start with making the fucking playoffs for F#$#cks sake……

  296. tdubs206 on May 24th, 2010 11:15 am

    <strikeThat is sad.

    :)

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