Franklin Gutierrez Appreciation Thread

Dave · May 28, 2010 at 9:29 am · Filed Under Mariners 

Because a picture says a thousand words:

Wins Above Replacement, Center Fielders, 2008 to 2010:

Comments

36 Responses to “Franklin Gutierrez Appreciation Thread”

  1. thurston24 on May 28th, 2010 9:34 am

    I’m really surprised his batting was that low. I know that he has evolved into a really good hitter this year (I know small sample size but when approach changes as dramatically pertaining to walks you really cannot argue) but still, I thought he was above average before.

    However, its truly quite amazing how much better a fielder he is than everyone else. Thanks GMZ.

  2. robbbbbb on May 28th, 2010 9:36 am

    “That’s why we traded for him.”

  3. craigmont on May 28th, 2010 9:51 am

    Also, look how good Mike Cameron still is. Sigh.

  4. msb on May 28th, 2010 9:57 am

    “In the bunched-up outfield, the Mariners’ Suzuki (366,903 votes) leads the way, followed by the Rays’ Carl Crawford (319,953) and the Rangers’ Nelson Cruz (307,928).

    But it’s close in the AL outfield, where the Rangers’ Josh Hamilton (265,896), the Yankees’ Curtis Granderson (264,572), the Angels’ Torii Hunter (230,036) and the Yankees’ Nick Swisher (229,944) are creeping close with plenty of time left. “

  5. joealb1 on May 28th, 2010 9:58 am

    Can we imagine how good he will be going foreward assuming no drastic drop off on defense? I think 7 war for a season is within his grasp!

  6. Adam B. on May 28th, 2010 9:59 am

    Lost in all the doom and gloom of the current season and the gambles that haven’t paid off, Gutierrez has quietly continued to give Mariner faithful a reason to never doubt Zduriencik’s vision.

    Where have all the people who were expecting a “regression” from DTFTs gone?

    The shame of it is that Torii Hunter will pick up yet another Gold Glove and the morons at ESPN; *cough* Phillips *cough*–will still consider him the best centerfielder in the division.

  7. lokiforever on May 28th, 2010 10:00 am

    What surprises me, is not that Gutierrez is so awesome, it’s that Mike Cameron’s awesome-ness barely waned since 2004, when the Bavasi regime undervalued defense, and him in particular, because of his high number of strikeouts or something.

  8. thurston24 on May 28th, 2010 10:08 am

    The shame of it is that Torii Hunter will pick up yet another Gold Glove and the morons at ESPN; *cough* Phillips *cough*–will still consider him the best centerfielder in the division.

    This is true, but Zack Greinke won a Cy Young because people started using advanced pitching metrics in their analysis. You have to think that one day, others will wise up and start paying attention to defensive metrics to hand out Gold Gloves.

  9. Mike Snow on May 28th, 2010 10:23 am

    By my count, that picture only says 53 words (counting multiple words for abbreviations and B.J. Upton’s initials).

  10. HerseyChris on May 28th, 2010 10:25 am

    I’m confused, where’s Carlos Beltran? He had 7.1 WAR in 2008 alone.

    But yes, like most everyone else, I hope Franklin Gutierrez is a Mariner for a long long time (just not so long so that he’s still playing for us as a 40 year old DH that’s OPSing around .500.

  11. andrewjsnider on May 28th, 2010 10:41 am

    I love you, Franklin Gutierrez. You’re one of my favorite Mariners.

  12. Liam on May 28th, 2010 10:48 am

    I’m confused, where’s Carlos Beltran?

    His lack of plate appearances keeps him off the list, but sorting by all players puts him in at #2. I’m not sure why that’s even an option when you’re sorting by WAR.

  13. mlathrop3 on May 28th, 2010 11:00 am

    I’ve always thought that Guti compared to a poor-man’s version of Torii Hunter. I guess Torii Hunter is now the poor-man’s version of Guti.

  14. Mid80sRighty on May 28th, 2010 11:06 am

    Yeah, Guti’s ok.. :)

    Why are the positional numbers different? Shouldn’t they all have the same number, since they all play the same position? I must not have the positional definition correct in my head.

  15. Chad on May 28th, 2010 11:11 am

    I believe the positional adjustment is different due to games played at other positions being factored in. I had to look up our other amazing OF to see where he ranked among RF’s and dangit if he isn’t tied for 3rd… with another Asian guy we might all remember. Bavasi, the gift that keeps on giving!

  16. brad_i on May 28th, 2010 11:13 am

    Matt Kemp and Nate McLouth need new positions.

    Mid80sRighty-The positional numbers are based on playing time and position, I think. Guti didn’t play as much in ’08 and played some corner OF, which is why his is lower.
    (Note: I might be wrong)

  17. TomC on May 28th, 2010 11:13 am

    Wow. I am amazed at how poor a fielder this shows Torii Hunter to be. I knew he was overrated, but I didn’t realize how much.

  18. JerBear on May 28th, 2010 11:16 am

    Why are the positional numbers different? Shouldn’t they all have the same number, since they all play the same position? I must not have the positional definition correct in my head.

    I believe that’s simply a combination of the varying playing time they’ve received (i.e. Grady Sizemore doesn’t get a full positional adjustment for 09 since he only played 92 games as a CF last year) and varying positions (i.e. Josh Hamilton has spent time n the corner OF positions as well, so he takes a hit on the positional adjustment.)

    Or I could be wrong.

  19. brad_i on May 28th, 2010 11:16 am

    If you take out the qualified requirement, Beltran comes in second at 10.1 WAR.
    Guti: slightly better than a banged up superstar.

  20. Matt Staples on May 28th, 2010 11:16 am

    Guti is awesome. That said, the people who expected a regression from Guti offensively this year could still be proven right. 3/4 of the season remains to be played, and he’s hitting about .370 on balls in play so far. I’d expect that to decrease to something more in line with his historical norms fairly soon, and for him to hit under .275 for the rest of the season.

  21. Carson on May 28th, 2010 11:19 am

    The shame of it is that Torii Hunter will pick up yet another Gold Glove and the morons at ESPN; *cough* Phillips *cough*–will still consider him the best centerfielder in the division.

    Steve Phillips was canned, fwiw. But I get your point.

    It sure is awesome being on this side of a trade, right?

  22. Mid80sRighty on May 28th, 2010 11:29 am

    I believe that’s simply a combination of the varying playing time they’ve received

    Makes sense. Thanks!

  23. JMHawkins on May 28th, 2010 11:35 am

    What’s really amazing is that even if you assume last year’s defensive numbers were a total fluke and shave 20 runs off Guit’s 2009 fielding, he’s still #3 on the list.

    Well, yeah and like loki said, Mike Cameron is amazing too.

    Your Seattle Mariners, home of undervalued centerfielders since the dawn of the 21st Century.

  24. joser on May 28th, 2010 12:04 pm

    Matt Kemp and Nate McLouth need new positions.

    You don’t want to read too much into less than a third of a season’s results — given the usual rule-of-thumb about UZR, that’s only about 10% of the data you need to draw any conclusions. Kemp had a net positive fielding value over the course of last season, for example. And I can certainly understand why the Dodgers would want to keep Kemp’s bat in CF unless he becomes a lot more costly out there with his glove (and/or they find a defensive whiz to push him to the corner OF spots…. and no, LA, Franklin is ours and you can’t have him).

  25. Adam B. on May 28th, 2010 12:21 pm

    Guti is awesome. That said, the people who expected a regression from Guti offensively this year could still be proven right. 3/4 of the season remains to be played, and he’s hitting about .370 on balls in play so far. I’d expect that to decrease to something more in line with his historical norms fairly soon, and for him to hit under .275 for the rest of the season.

    Gutierrez hasn’t really accrued enough seasons in the MLB to have historical norms.

    My point was that many people expected Gutierrez’ historical norms to be in line with his appearances as an Indian. I’m arguing that 2009 could very well BE his “norm” and that this year (even if the luck stats regress to the mean) hasn’t hurt that assertion.

  26. Red Apple on May 28th, 2010 12:36 pm

    “In the bunched-up outfield, the Mariners’ Suzuki (366,903 votes) leads the way, followed by the Rays’ Carl Crawford (319,953) and the Rangers’ Nelson Cruz (307,928).

    Who’s this “Suzuki” dude? Oh, they mean Ichiro!

  27. mironos on May 28th, 2010 12:37 pm

    College football programs do unofficial marketing campaigns to get their players on the map to Heisman voters.

    I think the M’s should do the same for Guti — the “popularity” factor that the All-Star voting has reached is disgusting. Guti’s fantastic.

  28. diderot on May 28th, 2010 12:58 pm

    Well, I just have to ask:
    Right now (and for future purposes), who would you rather have–Guti or Adam Jones?

  29. Goody on May 28th, 2010 1:04 pm

    This makes his off season extension look like one of the best bargains in all of baseball.

  30. robbbbbb on May 28th, 2010 1:49 pm

    Guti, and it’s not close. Jones may be cheaper now, but Guti’s locked in to a five year contract at extraordinarily reasonable rates for the team, and he’s a better player.

    In fact, Guti’s contract is so good that I suspect he’ll end up on this year’s edition of Dave Cameron’s “Trade Value” series at Fangraphs.

  31. Chris_From_Bothell on May 28th, 2010 2:44 pm

    Why is this man nowhere to be found in the All-Star voting??? Does he simply need to play for a 1st place and/or East Coast team for a couple of seasons?

  32. joealb1 on May 28th, 2010 2:56 pm

    diderot, Why not have both.

  33. joser on May 28th, 2010 3:28 pm

    I’d rather have Shin Soo Choo flanking Guti than Adam Jones, if the category is “outfielders rashly traded away by Bavasi.” Though I still would get that wrong since I didn’t phrase it as a question.

    It’s worth noting that Adam Jones, despite his recent struggles, still has been worth more for the O’s (3.6 WAR) than Bedard has for the M’s (3.0). (And that’s even before we get to Tillman, etc).

    But this is supposed to be about our current centerfielder, and his awesomeness. So: I think part of the problem with the Allstar voting is that it tends to lag actual performance, especially once you get away from the Only Markets Fox and ESPN Think Matter. This affects both ends of a player’s career: unless they’re playing in NY, or otherwise arrive with a lot of hype, it takes a while for the rest of the country to catch on to how good a player is and start voting for him; and once they start voting for him they continue to do so even after he’s declined past the point where he’s still worthy of getting an Allstar nod.

    Fantasy Baseball has helped attract visibility to obscure players in lesser markets, but for the most part that’s only players with big traditional stats (RBI, BA, Runs, etc) since those are what most Fantasy players pay attention to. A player with awesome defense is only going to get noticed via webgems, and since those get decided on the east coast a player making spectacular plays in the Pacific Time Zone tends to get overlooked there also.

    So it’s an uphill battle for Franklin. It doesn’t help that the Mariners themselves have been hyping Ichiro and Griffey(!?) and encouraging M’s fans to vote for them without mentioning Gutierrez at all as far as I’ve seen. I’m all for a guerrilla marketing campaign but it would help if the team itself was on board first.

    Fortunately there’s still a chance the players themselves could vote him in, especially since injuries could keep a couple of the recent high-voted outfielders out of the game.

  34. greentunic on May 28th, 2010 4:33 pm

    why is the replacement number different for each player? I thought this was based on a “Major League Baseball replacement level” player?

  35. Westside guy on May 28th, 2010 10:08 pm

    Man, and to think we let Cameron go in part because keeping Shiggy was a priority.

    I really liked Hasegawa, seriously I did – but… sheesh!

  36. ronlacroix on May 31st, 2010 8:49 am

    Picture? I see a table with a lot of numbers. A picture of Guti running down a deep drive in the gap plus one stat – his OPS – would speak more clearly than this table.

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