Quick Reaction To Eric Wedge’s Hiring
I’m traveling through Wednesday, so I don’t have as much time to write as I will towards the end of the week. I don’t want to rush through a post on Eric Wedge just to have something up, but I figured I could sketch out an outline of my thoughts, and then expand on them later. Consider this a Cliff’s Notes version of my feelings on the hiring.
We probably should have seen this coming. Of the five candidates they interviewed, he’s the one who makes the most sense. He got his managing chops in Cleveland, a similarly minded front office, and has experience in dealing with GMs who aren’t putting together traditional rosters. There were problems between the field staff and the front office this year, and I have no doubt that Jack was looking for someone who would be more willing to work with them on things they wanted to accomplish. He might not be a stats guy himself, but knowing how to work with an organization that uses sabermetric thinking was one of the things that Wedge offered that none of the other candidates did.
Also, with Carl Willis finishing the season as the pitching coach, Wedge’s hiring likely provides some continuity at the most important position on the coaching staff. Willis and Wedge worked together in Cleveland, and all signs point to him sticking around in that role. Given the issues they had with Brandon League’s pitch selection this year, I would imagine that having a pitching coach that is on board with the organization’s philosophy is a big priority. Hiring Wedge meant that they didn’t have to give him carte blanch to bring in a pitching coach that they weren’t familiar with, and that had to be a point in his favor.
As for whether this is a good or bad hire, I maintain my position that we have no idea how to evaluate managers, and so much of whether one is good or bad depends on the context of the situation. If Wedge works well with Jack and gets along with this specific group of players, then it was probably a good hire. How would we even begin to know whether that will be the case? I have no clue. We can look back at Wedge’s time in Cleveland and make some guesses about his on-field strategies, but those are a minimal part of a managers job, and they don’t really matter all that much. As long as he doesn’t ask Felix to throw 120 pitches per start or hit Jack Wilson lead-off, his moves won’t matter all that much. What will matter is getting the guys to respect him, and we don’t have any idea whether that will happen or not. Any opinion about his personality and how it will fit here is just a wild guess.
The most interesting question at the press conference, whenever that turns out to be, will almost certainly be about Milton Bradley. His time in Cleveland ended badly when he and Wedge ceased to be able to coexist in 2004. The breaking point was Wedge pulling Bradley from a spring training game for not hustling, but that was hardly the only time they butted heads. You’ve almost certainly heard the infamous story by now, but there are reports that Bradley wore a t-shirt in the clubhouse that read F— Eric Wedge. Maybe Wedge is the most forgiving person ever and the new and improved Milton Bradley is willing to give that relationship another chance, but, I wouldn’t bet on it. Wedge’s hiring almost certainly increases the chances that the M’s just cut Milton loose this winter. Maybe they would have been willing to take a shot at getting some production out of him with another fresh start, but Wedge does not qualify as a fresh start for Bradley.
Overall, I mostly defer to the M’s on this one. They know more about what kind of guy they want to work with than I do.
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Fuck Eric Wedge. Give me a DH lol
I agree … and good!
I won’t complain if they let Milton go but watch him light it up elsewere like Beltre lol.
Order of magnitude less likely, if not more. Almost everyone was expecting Beltre to light it up elsewhere and it became a certainty when he landed in Fenway.
Yeah….why isn’t someone else pointing this out? Seems to me an important point; someone who understands how to work with a non-traditional lineup seems to be a good thing to have.
Oh, okay, so THAT’S what the infamous t-shirt said. Wow. Just like Latrell Sprewell choking his coach and keeping his job, I guess being one of the 750 best in your profession gives you some latitude in dealing with the boss that the rest of us don’t enjoy. LOL
I dunno. Hopefully he’ll do for the M’s what Nate McMillan and George Karl did for the Sonics. But then that’s what I hoped about Wak. ‘sigh’ We’ll see.
Not true everyone we go and get always underperforms then leaves us and then all of a sudden plays alot better.
Well, to those who’re paying attention.
Check Beltre’s numbers home and away. Then check what Safeco does to right handed hitters. Add together; get four.
So, what happens to Darren Brown now? Does he go back to managing Tacoma? Is he maybe given a coaching job of some sort with the big club as sort of a ‘thank you’ for finishing up the year here? Is he just gone? I’m curious.
The only question now is will Baker cut short his vacation to write a 20,000 word essay on the Wedge/Bradley blow up and the potential to impact “clubhouse chemistry”?
Yeah, like Richie Sexson.
Oh wait, that didn’t happen. The Yankees cut him loose after a short while because he sucked.
And like Mike Sweeney.
Oh wait, that didn’t really happen either. He hit on again, off again for the Phillies, and had to work around a bad back much of the time – just like here.
And of course there’s Raul Ibañez.
Oh, forgot about that. He was hot for exactly one half season after he left here, then started dragging the Phillies down. This summer people were making comments about Raul that were eerily similar to what Seattleites have been saying about Bradley – and Seattle at least has the excuse of a bad contract swap.
How about Willie F. Bloomquist… oh wait, no that one doesn’t work either.
You might want to read about confirmation bias sometime.
Although I should point out that while WFB didn’t exactly tear the cover off the ball for Kansas City, he certainly outperformed the 2010 Seattle Mariners as a whole.
How about Willie F. Bloomquist… oh wait, no that one doesn’t work either.
What about Bret Boo- oh, wait, no, Boonie sucked after he left here too.
And Carl Evere-oh, that’s right, he couldn’t even find a JOB to suck at.
And JJ Putz we- oh, yeah, that’s right, he was horrible and injured as a Met, though he’s done pretty well with the White Sox.
Anyways, I think we’ve proven that the players the M’s get rid of always do better once they leave… except when they don’t.
As for Wedge… well, as it goes, I think his success is much more dependent on the rest of the organization getting past their problems. To whatever extent this can make things more stable, great.
Also, to add on to this point:
As for whether this is a good or bad hire, I maintain my position that we have no idea how to evaluate managers, and so much of whether one is good or bad depends on the context of the situation
Casey Stengel, Joe Torre, and your particular bête noire, Lou Piniella, are all pretty good examples of that, I think- where their results on the field were far more dependent on their surrounding talent and other environmental factors than on their particular skills.
I think it’s a fair question whether or not general managers or owners can identify superior managerial talent accurately, if it can’t be identified on the outside by using analytical tools. Yes, they have to work with these people every day, but there are lots of beliefs held in baseball by experienced baseball people that aren’t supported by objective evidence.
Order of magnitude less likely, if not more. Almost everyone was expecting Beltre to light it up elsewhere and it became a certainty when he landed in Fenway.
Hindsight bias much?
CHONE projected a .745 OPS, and a .328 wOBA.
ZIPS .779, .342
He put up .919, .390.
He was the 13th 3B drafted in my 12-team fantasy league, he finished the year ahead of all 12 drafted ahead of him, ranking only behind Jose Bautista.
Everyone thought his numbers would improve marginally, but not to this extent.
I think getting rid of Bradley is a bad idea. Either way we are paying him a ton so we might as well get some production out of him and go from there. Personally, if I was Eric Wedge, on the upcoming first full team workout day in spring training I would stroll thru the clubhouse with a “Fuck Milton Bradley” t-shirt on! I’m sure its long over between the two of them. At least you can get a few laughs out of the guys!
What does Bradley bring to the table? Whatever he had once sure looks gone. Sunk cost, say good-by. His likelihood of low production indicates he should be let go regardless of who is managing.
There were problems between the field staff and the front office this year, . . . He might not be a stats guy himself, but knowing how to work with an organization that uses sabermetric thinking was one of the things that Wedge offered that none of the other candidates did.
Dave,
Using last year’s roster, can you give an example of how things might have looked different given a manager who was friendly with sabermetric thinking?
Yes, Why Do They Always Get Better after the leave? Wait, they don’t. But let’s not let facts get in the way of what’s “not true” when we’re wallowing in our self-flagellation
I say give Milton Bradley one last chance to prove that he can be a productive, non-disruptive player. The first time he goes goes over the cuckoo’s nest then cut him loose and eat the contract. There’s no reason for Wedge to have to put up with classless antics from this guy.
Jeezus, I know that the quality of comments recently has gone precipitously downward; probably the 101-loss season has something to do with that. But three “lol”s in six comments?
I’d like to see Bradley cut loose, and I was a big supporter of his. He just appears to be washed up. And if his presence will be any problem at all for the new manager…it’s not worth the dwindling chance that he has a big comeback season.
The problem with Bradley is that even if he rebounds, he’s not a great fit. His best side is from the right, and that’s bad at Safeco. You could platoon him and play him mostly in away games, but is he worth a roster spot then? Add to that his injury problems and I think we can do better from among the candidates Dave listed a couple weeks ago.
Raul Ibanez made a pretty nice catch last night towards the end of the game. I know, I know, “small sample size.”
It’s not really the losing seasons, I generally have to skip comment sections for game threads and most off-season/speculation posts because it seems like the casual/fantasy baseball poster comes out.
Not for me. Admittedly, I didn’t think he’d improve THAT much, but, COME ON. Going from a stadium that kills his bats to a stadium that helps his bat is gonna help him, no ifs, ands or buts. (And aren’t a lot of the projection systems a bit insensitive to stadium fit?)
Well, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I haven’t been posting or even reading much about the M’s. This is my downtime, when I can watch baseball and pretend the Mariners don’t exist because, for the intents of the postseason, they don’t. Once the WS is over and (especially) once the winter meetings roll around and the offseason gets into full swing, I expect we’ll have more of the regular commenters back to dilute the drive-by cranks and nutjobs and Bakers.
And kudos to the regulars who are sticking it out right now, fighting the good fight.
I take it you’re not referring to this one? That’s the Raul I remember.
Thanks to the M’s FO revolving door of managers the past 7 years, it would take a “super manager” to make me sit up and pay attention at this point.
“Super manager” meaning someone famous (for good or bad) like Valentine, LaRussa, Dusty Baker, etc.
So whomever would have been picked among the list (besides Valentine), it’s hard for me to generate any enthusiasm or energy about the choice.
And I think this is probably the response of much of the casual fan base.
Well that’s something the M’s FO has achieved by these grinding years of mediocrity. Apathy from fans. (If Ichiro and Felix were not on this team, I wouldn’t watch or follow that crap at all).
I just pray that the new manager doesn’t fuck up by trying to mess with the one piece of the team which has been working excellently (i.e. trying to change Ichiro’s batting style, hitting position, etc.).
There are so many other things/players which aren’t fucking working on this team and need to be fixed first.
If Wedge doesn’t mess up on this point, I will be satisfied.
Well, Milton Bradley appears to be on board with the managerial hire (Per Larry Stone).
On this tangent about busting the idea that hitters do well after leaving Safeco/the Mariners, we need to be fair.
Listing players like Sexson, Sweeney, Boone, and Carl Everett saying they did worse after getting cut from the Mariners is hardly persuasive since they were basically at the end of the careers (which in all fairness actually might have come to an end much earlier if the M’s hadn’t sucked so much).
Look at the guys who weren’t near the end of the careers.
Beltre did great. Ibanez did incredibly well for half a season at least. He’s 37 or 38? so saying he’s not hitting as great two years later doesn’t seem such strong proof that the Safeco/Mariners effect doesn’t exist (how about aging?), since he did hit extremely well over half a season directly after leaving here. Who else would be a worthwhile comparison? (It’s hard since there have been hardly any respectible hitters here recently besides Ichiro. In too many case like the guys up there, it’s usually the case of the M’s FO riding on a dead dog they picked up until it’s really really dead).
It’s hard to gauge fringe players. I won’t be persuaded by someone saying that Ryan Garko (for example) sucked after going elsewhere too so there must not exist any depressive effect of Safeco/Mariners on hitters.
On the other hand there have been many hitters who came here and promptly sucked. I post it before, but Ibanez is probably the only FA hitter who can be deemed a “success”. (I don’t know why the teams up to 2002 are an exception).
The FO needs to focus on hitters who have good “away” numbers at Safeco.
Is Eric Wedge still the M’s manager?
with eric wedge’s ties to cleveland, any chance we can get shin-soo choo back to play left field?
Ben Broussard’s not too busy. Sure, maybe the M’s can sign him and trade him straight up for Choo.
Well, since the statement I was responding to was specifically “everyone we go and get always underperforms then leaves us and then all of a sudden plays alot better”, the list of players in question is going to be biased towards older players – since generally if you “go and get” someone, you’re talking about a free agent.
I don’t see why any park effect would only impact “respectable hitters”, as it were. I’d think you should be able to look at guys in the vein of Bloomquist and Betancourt and still get valid information.
There are plenty of guys who’ve come here and done pretty much what was expected, or even exceeded those expectations. Branyan, for one. Guti, for another. Heck, Ibañez certainly did what he was brought here to do. Chavez was about as expected, until Yuni took him out.
Not everybody who comes here starts sucking, and not everyone who leaves starts setting the world on fire. Certainly there are guys like Shin-Soo Choo out there – but I’d argue that’s more a problem of giving up on a young player too early. You know, the sort of thing some people are doing regarding Adam Moore, Justin Smoak and Michael Saunders right now.
I’d be interested in reading more about that and how it made its way onto the field and into the won-lost columns.
Richie Sexon contract was terrible from the beginning his BA sucked and all he was good for was the occasional HR. Ibanez produced in Phillie atleast he would be the 2nd best hitter on our team this year and last year go look at his stats.
Westside Guy…I agree…giving up on players too early. Like Ibanez, traded him to KC only to sign him back later. Boone, traded him to Cin only to sign him back later. Then there were others who we traded away too early and they developed into great players but we never saw them again. For example, Mike Hampton, Jason Varitek, Scott Podsednik, Shin Soo-Choo, Adam Jones, and so forth. In each scenario they were traded for older veteran players.
On the flip side, when we have traded veteran players for younger players we’ve made out at times too. For example, Ken Phelps for Buhner, Langston for Randy, Gene Harris, Brian Holman, Freddy Garcia for the kid from the Chisox who I will admit I was excited about when we got him, Griffey for Cameron et. al.
Generally speaking, it seems to make more sense to develop players rather than trade them for older players in the twilight of their careers. Of course there are cases when the opposite is true and I don’t want to be hammered with a bias claim. Just tends to hurt more when you lose out on a player that turns out to be just the type you wish your organization had. Tougher pill to swallow IMO.
Yes, good point.
We just need to remember that all prospects don’t pan out, or rather very few do.
How long should the “training” period go on, before a team cuts its losses/makes a decision? Tough question.
But I’d say, Moore’s and Saunders’ time should be some time by midseason next year. Moore’s leash might be especially be a bit short (June?) to show something stomachable/some kind of improvement at the plate, so I hope he will be working hard this offseason.
(I wrote Moore, because I had the impression that Saunders was showing some kind of progress at the plate, but on second thought I’m not sure about it).
Wedge seems to have a reputation for handling veterans and kids well. In this sense he’s the right guy I guess.
What gots me excited for next year: Ichiro, Felix, and Smoak!
Rather what I meant and should have wrote is “established hitters”, since with fringe guys or young guys, it’s hard to tell if it’s something about the park or if they just figured something out or hit a wall (got figured out).
I gotta say – I’m enjoying arguing about this stuff a lot more than I “enjoyed” watching the 2010 Mariners play baseball!
I’m looking forward to a hopefully interesting off-season. Oh, and Texas beating the Yankees.
Ibanez was actually a very productive player here, the knock on him was his outfield defense. He does have an awkward style, however he made all the plays. Milton Bradely and Carl Everett are like two peas in a pod. Milton should be released.
Ibanez did NOT make all the plays!
He did make routine plays look like web gems because he had to slide for what other players could’ve easily made with a light sprint.
Go to lookoutlanding and check out on the left side:
“Raul Ibanez takes pride in his defense”
Re: Belte’s improvement: Is there any way of looking at where each Beltre BIP landed in 2009 in Safeco and then adjusting it for the dimensions of Fenway? I was under the impression he would show huge improvement just having the Monster to play with. He seemed to have a lot of long outs that would be homers and doubles in Boston.
Also, a fun fact:
Eric Wedge was the manager of the Indians when Cliff Lee was sent to AAA in 2007.
I strongly suspect Scott Boras developed just such a chart prior to the 2009-2010 off-season.
Beltre’s a stud – don’t get me wrong – and I wish he’d never left Seattle. But I’m sure Boras had a very short list of the places he wanted Beltre to go for this one-year “look at exactly how good I am” demonstration, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Boston was #1 on that list.
For those interested in likely canned responses, Wedge will be giving his first interview to Brock and Salk at 11am.
I thinkt he length of their leash has to depend on who else we have to play their position. If we dump Adam Moore, who catches then? Rob Johnson? Might as well take a long shot on Adam Moore and put in someone you know is going to suck.
In a slightly related story, Ryne Sandberg was passed over by the Cubs.
The thing I love most about this hiring: I saw Eric Wedge play at Cheney Stadium, too. That’s two in a row!
I’ve been reading a lot of casual fans on other site/blogs being upset about wedge over valentine. I did some light digging and found an interesting piece of information.
Eric Wedge
1 2003 35 Cleveland Indians AL 162 68 94 .420 4
2 2004 36 Cleveland Indians AL 162 80 82 .494 3
3 2005 37 Cleveland Indians AL 162 93 69 .574 2
4 2006 38 Cleveland Indians AL 162 78 84 .481 4
5 2007 39 Cleveland Indians AL 162 96 66 .593 1
6 2008 40 Cleveland Indians AL 162 81 81 .500 3
7 2009 41 Cleveland Indians AL 162 65 97 .401 4
7 years 1134 561 573 .495 3.0
Bruce Bochy (Team in the nlcs… had attrocious offense last year)
1 1995 40 San Diego Padres NL 144 70 74 .486 3
2 1996 41 San Diego Padres NL 162 91 71 .562 1
3 1997 42 San Diego Padres NL 162 76 86 .469 4
4 1998 43 San Diego Padres NL 162 98 64 .605 1 NL Pennant
5 1999 44 San Diego Padres NL 162 74 88 .457 4
6 2000 45 San Diego Padres NL 162 76 86 .469 5
7 2001 46 San Diego Padres NL 162 79 83 .488 4
8 2002 47 San Diego Padres NL 162 66 96 .407 5
9 2003 48 San Diego Padres NL 162 64 98 .395 5
10 2004 49 San Diego Padres NL 162 87 75 .537 3
11 2005 50 San Diego Padres NL 162 82 80 .506 1
12 2006 51 San Diego Padres NL 162 88 74 .543 1
13 2007 52 San Francisco Giants NL 162 71 91 .438 5
14 2008 53 San Francisco Giants NL 162 72 90 .444 4
15 2009 54 San Francisco Giants NL 162 88 74 .543 3
16 2010 55 San Francisco Giants NL 162 92 70 .568 1
San Diego Padres 12 years 1926 951 975 .494 3.1 1 Pennant
San Francisco Giants 4 years 648 323 325 .498 3.3
16 years 2574 1274 1300 .495 3.1 1 Pennant
just some thoughts…
I have to take that back. I thought that was a great interview by Wedge. Small sample in managerial interviews? Perhaps. But, I heard someone who has passion for the game and knows exactly what kind of team he wants to run.
That, at least, is a start.
I agree. Wedge sounded good in the interview and it didn’t seem like a canned statement.
Problem is, will the casual fan even care because “it’s not Bobby Valentine”?
Meh. We don’t have to care about the “casual fan;” Armstrong and Lincoln do.
There wouldn’t have been a surge on ticket sales if Bobby Valentine had been named manager. I don’t remember anyone buying tickets to see Lou Piniella manage, as colorful and popular as he was. They bought tickets to watch Junior, Randy, Edgar, and Buhner play baseball. The crowds will return only when the Mariners put a product on the field worth watching, regardless of who is managing from the dugout.
If the press conference is a true indication of what Eric Wedge is all about, with the toughness and no BS, I think he’s EXACTLY what this team needs. I have a good feeling.
Well, to look on the bright side, at least he was second in the AL in triples a couple of years ago.
Which is why the Phillies valued him so much as a coveted “defensive upgrade” to Pat Burrell.
Now that is truly cold, in a way, when you think about it.
Re Bobby Valentine, I happened to be in a Value Village store yesterday and noticed a beagle-puss disguise amongst the Halloween costumery…
Oh, the puns which could have flowed!
So much for Wedge being “just like Wakamatsu.” (And, really, you heard many comments like that in the blogosphere; not sure where it came from, given their personalities….)
There was a Barry Lamar Bonds sighting at SF today he looks forty pounds lighter and ready to roll. How about Barry for DH in Seattle?
No.
He’s forty pounds (of muscle) lighter ’cause he’s had no reason to juice. Let’s keep it that way.
Anyone know what Erik Wedge is like in terms of his leadership personality? Is he sort of submissive and conflict aversive a la Wakamatsu or does he push hard to hold players accountable like Dusty Baker or Lou or Ozzie?
Personally I want a leader who commands respect like the latter group. I don’t want anymore soft reactions to player negligence or appeasing player’s desire to have specific lineup spots.
That is one sweet stache.
It will be criticized by Seattle’s biased liberal elites, but I say it is a thing of beauty. It must be preserved for posterity. Save the Stache!
Please don’t bring that stupid political shit here.
Especially over a mustache.
I’m a liberal myself. It was a joke. How dense does one have to be, not to see that?