And Milton Is Gone Too

Dave · May 9, 2011 at 11:19 am · Filed Under Mariners 

I told you that arrangement wouldn’t last long. Turns out Milton Bradley’s pardon only lasted a few hours, as he’s now been DFA’d with Carlos Peguero taking his spot on the roster. Peguero and Wilson will likely share time in LF (with Wilson also seeing time at DH against LHPs if Cust keeps struggling, I’d imagine), and the M’s are beginning the process of moving out the placeholders to make room for some younger players.

We’re probably a month or so away from seeing Jack Wilson or Adam Kennedy go away to make room for Dustin Ackley, so this won’t be the end of the transition. This is a team that is still building for the future, and the team won’t keep running useless veterans out there every day just because.

Comments

67 Responses to “And Milton Is Gone Too”

  1. JH on May 9th, 2011 11:23 am

    Well if nothing else, having a couple young-ish linebackers in the lineup will be a lot more fun to watch than Milton, even if neither of them are a good bet to be productive.

  2. SODOMOJO360 on May 9th, 2011 11:26 am

    Haaaaaaaaaalllllllaaaaaalooooooyaaaaaaaa. Later Chutes and Ladders. Enjoy your 13 mil while sitting on your couch.

  3. hark on May 9th, 2011 11:27 am

    Milton Bradley’s wRC+ is 100 despite a lower OBP than Jack Cust, and his split vs. RHP trounces Cust (.317 over a .268 wOBA). Cust has a wRC+ of 90. For positional flexibility and for a bat that is statistically an improvement over Cust, why is Jack still here and Milton gone?

    Milton’s negative WAR is almost all in the field, seeing as Cust is replacement level with a wRC+ of 90. And why do this to recall Carlos Peguero, who is bad, of all people? I get it to bring youth in, but Cust is older and less valuable to the team, so if we’re going to cut anybody…

  4. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 11:28 am

    I’ll be curious to see how this plays out with the casual fans. The fact that Bradley wasn’t really hitting probably makes it easier; and while at least one person here disagreed with my assessment, I thought it was visibly apparent Bradley was dogging it in the outfield on several occasions this weekend.

    But what really is the wild card is this – we’re only three games back, but Jack may very well be perceived as throwing in the towel with these moves. I think they’re smart moves – but I remember a certain GM in Chicago getting a lot of flack in a similar situation a few years ago.

  5. beastwarking on May 9th, 2011 11:29 am

    This is probably a really good time for this. The M’s are going on a road trip that starts off in Baltimore of all places. Probably not a bad time for young guys to build their confidence up.

    Hopefully this all works for the best.

  6. currcoug on May 9th, 2011 11:32 am

    Finally.

  7. Dave on May 9th, 2011 11:36 am

    For positional flexibility and for a bat that is statistically an improvement over Cust, why is Jack still here and Milton gone?

    Because there are numbers that exist prior to 2011? Cust was a decent player last year. Bradley hasn’t been useful since 2008.

  8. cowdoc on May 9th, 2011 11:38 am

    His outfield play this weekend was the final straw. Give someone a chance who actually is willing to put out some effort. He can’t be a good influence on the younger players. Good bye, don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

  9. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 11:39 am

    [Try not to break your Caps Lock key in celebration]

  10. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 11:43 am

    Hahahaha, love the mod on Mike’s post!

    Mike, I don’t know what you typed but – I’m probably in 100% agreement with it. :-D

  11. IwearMsHats on May 9th, 2011 11:44 am

    Someone mentioned a Guti set-back? That doesn’t mesh with Jack Z’s comments today about an “optimistic approach” on getting him back. Anyone know if this “set-back” thing is true or not? I thought he was just getting a day off yesterday to take it slow.

  12. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 11:44 am

    I’ll be curious to see how this plays out with the casual fans.

    Westy, I think the “casual” fan is more in tune than you might be giving them credit for. There were a lot of “casual” fans at the game Friday night and they were booing vociferously at MB’s effort. They get it. They won’t have any issues with the move.

  13. hark on May 9th, 2011 11:45 am

    Because there are numbers that exist prior to 2011? Cust was a decent player last year. Bradley hasn’t been useful since 2008.

    Given his batted ball profile this year, do you expect Cust to bounce back? He is well off his career norms to the point that it seems unrecoverable, and in about 25 more plate appearances, the small sample size excuse starts to lose weight precipitously.

  14. Mike Snow on May 9th, 2011 11:45 am

    Anyone know if this “set-back” thing is true or not? I thought he was just getting a day off yesterday to take it slow.

    The setback was that he came down with the flu and had to sit out (as distinguished from the stomach problems that have been plaguing him all along).

  15. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 11:47 am

    Mike, I don’t know what you typed but – I’m probably in 100% agreement with it.

    I am sure you would be. There was no swearing, but there was a bung hole reference in conjunction with whistling zippity doo dah … and a lot of CAPS.

  16. Kazinski on May 9th, 2011 11:50 am

    I don’t think Jack is throwing in the towel, because it’s ridiculous to think we can contend with this offense.

    But I don’t think even the casual fan will mind getting rid of Langerhans or Bradley, they are both around the Menodoza line, and at least according to UZR were not playing well defensively. With Bradley it was apparent to anyone he didn’t have it defensively at all, effort or results.

    I liked Langerhans, but all his value was as a defensive replacement that could play all three positions in the OF. If his defense has dropped off where he can’t play CF anymore, then there are better options out there. All of his negative UZR is from his 97 innings in CF, I don’t know if that was just noise or real. His offense wasn’t going to get better, his contact rates are too low to get acceptable results without bringing a lot more power to the table.

    The most disturbing thing about outfield defensive stats is according to UZR, Ichiro has been worse than Bradley. Judging by his stolen bases and infield hits, he hasn’t lost any speed, but it is concerning.

  17. wabbles on May 9th, 2011 11:50 am

    It seemed like Kennedy was doing pretty decent during his recent DH stint although I don’t have the numbers to back that up. So I’d kinda like to see Wilson replaced although JZ does like him. I think Cust’s more recent productivity and lack of…other issues has kept him around instead of Bradley.

  18. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 11:53 am

    The most disturbing thing about outfield defensive stats is according to UZR

    Kaz: If you included a $100 bill with the “gift of UZR,” the total value of the gift would be “$100. UZR is a background noise stat with a lot of flaws. Throw it in the hamper … or better yet, the diaper hamper. Then, mail it to whomever you least like.

  19. Leroy Stanton on May 9th, 2011 11:56 am

    Given his batted ball profile this year, do you expect Cust to bounce back? He is well off his career norms to the point that it seems unrecoverable, and in about 25 more plate appearances, the small sample size excuse starts to lose weight precipitously.

    It’s one month. Since 2009, Bradley has had 4 months worse (by wRC+) than Cust’s April. Cust’s April was his second worst month in the last four years.

  20. cowdoc on May 9th, 2011 11:57 am

    Seriously, Ichiro’s UZR is worse than Bradley’s. If that is really the case then that leaves me with little confidence in that analysis. Watch a few games! The throw Bradley made that Olivo muffed and resulted in 2 runs! The lack of effort on fly balls. The one up against the wall, yes a difficult play but Bradley was not even close!! Who would you rather have as a team mate Good bye Bradley!!! Thank God

  21. Jay R. on May 9th, 2011 12:00 pm

    Once they finally chase Chone out of town this team will be rid of selfish louts for whom I have a lot of trouble rooting. Good move. I would rather watch some young guys try to figure it out than Bradley half ass his way to his oversized paycheck. He will still get paid, but at least I don’t have to watch him now.

  22. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 12:05 pm

    While I don’t feel as strongly as Mike with regard to UZR, in the short term its usefulness in terms of predicting future performance is nil. There’s just too much noise to isolate any signal until you can accumulate a lot of data.

    I do think it still tells you something – but what it tells you is only what’s happened over that time period with little to no predictive value (sort of like ERA). As Kazinski pointed out, Langerhans’ UZR was bad this year – but he was covering center (and we all could see with our eyes that he wasn’t doing that well). Longer term, and as a left fielder, Langerhans was (and likely will be in the future) more capable than his 2011 UZR might lead you to believe.

  23. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 12:07 pm

    Kaz: If you included a $100 bill with the “gift of UZR,” the total value of the gift would be “$100.

    Mike, I propose an experiment. First step: Give me $100.

  24. joser on May 9th, 2011 12:10 pm

    It’s way too early to be drawing any conclusions from UZR (in fact even a year’s worth of data is a pretty poor sample). That one sun ball Ichiro dropped is skewing his numbers (how many other RFs so far this season have dropped balls they should’ve easily caught?)

    Westy, I think the “casual” fan is more in tune than you might be giving them credit for. There were a lot of “casual” fans at the game Friday night and they were booing vociferously at MB’s effort. They get it.

    Yeah. Bradley was a mostly unpopular player (and increasingly so). The “casual fans” generally have a positive view of any “prospect” coming up from the minors, whether the guy deserves the label or not; if nothing else, he’s new and young and interesting. “Letting the kids play” is generally a popular move, and doesn’t necessarily look like the team raising the white towel of defeat. And dingers cure a multitude of ills: both Wilson and Peguero at least offer the chance to launch a talk-of-the-watercooler moonshot when they come to plate.

    If anything, it may be us “non-casual” fans who have a more negative view of this because we’re already well-acquainted with the limitations of the call-ups and more jaded realistic about the chances of a team littered with rookies.

    Personally, I’m looking forward to Ackley forcing his way onto the team in a month or so. And whatever magic Z can pull off at the trade deadline. If nothing else, this is going to be a much different team after July than it was on Opening Day.

  25. EricL on May 9th, 2011 12:17 pm

    I’m really looking forward to 2013:

    1b: Smoak
    2b: Ackley
    SS: Franklin
    3B: Anthony Rendon (Assuming the M’s draft him, of course.)

  26. Mike Snow on May 9th, 2011 12:22 pm

    The “casual fans” generally have a positive view of any “prospect” coming up from the minors, whether the guy deserves the label or not; if nothing else, he’s new and young and interesting. “Letting the kids play” is generally a popular move, and doesn’t necessarily look like the team raising the white towel of defeat. And dingers cure a multitude of ills

    That’s a really elaborate way of saying “Bucky Jacobsen.”

  27. JH on May 9th, 2011 12:23 pm

    The most disturbing thing about outfield defensive stats is according to UZR, Ichiro has been worse than Bradley.

    UZR data to-date is the sample size equivalent of roughly 10 games. It’s noise (and I’m betting Ichiro took a pretty big hit for the ball he dropped in the sun last week – I’m pretty sure UZR doesn’t account for glare, and that ball was hit right in his wheelhouse).

    Kaz: If you included a $100 bill with the “gift of UZR,” the total value of the gift would be “$100. UZR is a background noise stat with a lot of flaws. Throw it in the hamper … or better yet, the diaper hamper. Then, mail it to whomever you least like.

    This is a ridiculous statement.

  28. Kazinski on May 9th, 2011 12:23 pm

    Kaz: If you included a $100 bill with the “gift of UZR,” the total value of the gift would be “$100. UZR is a background noise stat with a lot of flaws. Throw it in the hamper … or better yet, the diaper hamper. Then, mail it to whomever you least like.

    Yes, I understand that, I just mentioned UZR because it is what is used most commonly, but according to RZR, Ichiro is down a tick from last year, and in the bottom third of RF with over 200 innings. According to DRS, he is 3 runs worse than average so far this year.

    It is not just UZR that is pointing to a decline.

  29. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 12:24 pm

    Mike, I propose an experiment. First step: Give me $100.

    Touche’ … nicely done!

    Cust has got to be sweating with the recent moves made. We are one decent, defensive outfield replacement away (Endy Chavez anyone?) from being able to jettison Cust and letting one of the young guys take over as DH. Carp is not far away from getting a callup to replace Cust, either. Lots of options. Not a lot of good options, but there are some options. Anybody can stand there and eek out a .300 slugging percentage.

  30. akampfer on May 9th, 2011 12:24 pm

    Congrats to Mike Wilson! I first saw him in Arizona filling in for Ichiro three years ago and he had some pop then. Here’s hoping he has a great career.

  31. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 12:26 pm

    Anybody can stand there and eek out a .300 slugging percentage.

    Correction … a .248 slugging percentage.

    Plugghhh, pffew … it hurts just to form the words that compprise that number.

  32. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 12:36 pm

    This is a ridiculous statement.

    And yet I am still giddy with glee over today’s moves … and not in any kind of hurry to waste time debating the merits of a virtually useless stat.

  33. Dave on May 9th, 2011 12:40 pm

    Kaz: If you included a $100 bill with the “gift of UZR,” the total value of the gift would be “$100. UZR is a background noise stat with a lot of flaws. Throw it in the hamper … or better yet, the diaper hamper. Then, mail it to whomever you least like.

    You have no idea what you’re talking about.

  34. gwangung on May 9th, 2011 12:43 pm

    EVERY stat is virtually useless with an insufficient sample size.

  35. qwerty on May 9th, 2011 12:46 pm

    We’re probably a month or so away from seeing Jack Wilson or Adam Kennedy go away to make room for Dustin Ackley, so this won’t be the end of the transition

    No brainer it should be JW. I like the Adam Kennedy/Luis Rodriguez options…even when DAckley comes up.

  36. spankystout on May 9th, 2011 12:46 pm

    Yay! dead weight should be thrown overboard. Cust you are next.

  37. groundzero55 on May 9th, 2011 12:55 pm

    But what really is the wild card is this – we’re only three games back, but Jack may very well be perceived as throwing in the towel with these moves.

    No more throwing in the towel than we already were with those two not only starting, but batting in the heart of the order.

    Seriously, Ichiro’s UZR is worse than Bradley’s. If that is really the case then that leaves me with little confidence in that analysis. Watch a few games!

    Ichiro has had more than one sun double evade him IIRC this season. Bad luck. He is well above average in the outfield even at 37, and with his ability batting and stealing bases, his defense is more than enough.

    What I’m wondering is this….With Bradley and LHans gone, what does the lineup look like? Peguero and Wilson won’t bat above Smoak…does Smoak finally get moved to cleanup? Or are we looking at something like Kennedy-Cust for the 3/4 spots?

  38. Ballfour on May 9th, 2011 1:08 pm

    Say goodbye to the bored games!

  39. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 1:14 pm

    You have no idea what you’re talking about

    Yet still giddy, nonetheless.

    White noise stat.

  40. Typical Idiot Fan on May 9th, 2011 1:17 pm

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s not two DFA’s coming.

    I was right, but not at all in the way I thought. It didn’t make much sense, to me, for Mike Wilson to be brought up alone.

    What’s interesting is that the Mariners rationale for Wilson was to get a right handed bat in the lineup. Dumping Langerhans makes sense for that. But dumping Bradley for Peguero pretty much returns us back to status quo doesn’t it?

    Here’s another question, who’s playing outfield in Tacoma? Carp, Guti, and Haveman? Bonilla? Gross.

  41. joser on May 9th, 2011 1:28 pm

    And in related Milton Bradley news, Carlos Silva is slated to make another start for the (High A) Tampa Yankees tonight! And hey, it’s “Humana Silver Sluggers Night” (Seniors eat free!)

    That’s a really elaborate way of saying “Bucky Jacobsen.”

    Well, sure. In fact, I actually had Bucky’s Wikipedia page open at the time because I got to musing about call-ups who hit well in small samples (and do Banner Bank commercials) and I started wondering where he was now. (I’m not convinced his page is up to date, btw). But people still remember him fondly, and I don’t think anybody at the time viewed his call-up as “throwing in the towel” (not even the ones that thought it would lead to seeing less of Edgar)

  42. Bremerton guy on May 9th, 2011 1:46 pm

    About Bucky: according to Wikipedia, he’s coaching a select baseball team in Snoqualmie, Washington while running a facility called Bucky’s Baseball Academy.

  43. themedia on May 9th, 2011 1:58 pm

    Not that Milton was really contributing, but the counterargument to this move seems to be fairly obvious: Chris Ray? No, seriously, CHRIS RAY.

  44. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 2:03 pm

    Not that Milton was really contributing, but the counterargument to this move seems to be fairly obvious: Chris Ray? No, seriously, CHRIS RAY.

    Managers seem allergic to 6-man bullpens, even those that are essentially using a 4-man bullpen. :-D

  45. joser on May 9th, 2011 2:07 pm

    The pitching side of things is on an independent track (or so it generally seems). Presumably Ray will be going away when one or more of Aardsma / Kelley / Leutke comes back.

  46. TomC on May 9th, 2011 2:52 pm

    This is a team that is still building for the future, and the team won’t keep running useless veterans out there every day just because.

    This is what I have been waiting for the last few years. Stop playing the roster fillers. Stop settling for predictably below average and take a chance on new guys who may be unpredictably good.

  47. Brzeczyszczykiewicza on May 9th, 2011 3:06 pm

    Bradley and Langerhans were both useless this year. Neither of them was hitting very many line drives so it was only a matter of time until their offensive numbers completely tanked, and they both have negative defensive numbers. Wilson and Peguero can’t be worse than playing bad defense while not hitting line drives, so I think those moves are as much about the present as about the future. At least Cust has been hitting line drives, his only problem was ground balls, but that’s easier to deal with.

  48. Edgar4Hall on May 9th, 2011 3:22 pm

    So with Bradley gone, maybe we finally see Smoak move up in the order

  49. bookbook on May 9th, 2011 4:06 pm

    Cust had a 128 OPS+ in 2010. I don’t think you drop that for Carlos Peguero based off of a month and a bit. (Though it has been frustrating so far…)

  50. FelixFanChris420 on May 9th, 2011 4:21 pm

    and while at least one person here disagreed with my assessment, I thought it was visibly apparent Bradley was dogging it in the outfield on several occasions this weekend.

    I agree 100% Westy, at the saturday game, I was 10 rows back about halfway between LF and 3B, so I had a pretty good view of Milton’s defense in LF for that particular game, and he was most assuredly dogging it, particularly on the tweener between him and Ryan (2nd or 3rd inning I believe) where it landed 2 feet in front of Milton and Ryan was still about 15 feet away…looked like he was running MAYBE 3/4 speed and no dive. It was honestly one of the more obvious cases of a player dogging it that I can remember in recent memory.

  51. MrZDevotee on May 9th, 2011 5:16 pm

    Joser-
    Bucky is running a hitting academy somewhere up by North Bend… A bunch of Major Leaguers, and prospects, go there in the off season to work on their stroke, watch film of their swing, etc.

    I heard an interview with him on one of the local sports radio shows where he talked about it.

  52. StatBoy on May 9th, 2011 5:23 pm

    Dave,

    Good to see you jumping into the comments to correct misrepresentations every once in awhile.

    msfanmike’s authoritative statements without any factual backing have been getting a little old as of late.

  53. SonOfZavaras on May 9th, 2011 6:38 pm

    My .02 on Wilson and Peguero getting called up:

    Good.

    Not because I think either one have brilliant futures as major leaguers ahead, but rather I was just really getting tired of “Boardgame”‘s antics.

    And Langerhans is a fourth outfielder on any team that dreams of being good. That’s it. To his credit, he’s a pro and worked hard- seemingly knew his role.

    I’m all for giving players a shot, even if the scout in me says the guys in question are not long-term answers.

    Guys like Ryan Franklin, J.J. Putz and more recently Doug Fister came through our system with ZERO fanfare and hype. And plenty of detractors saying ‘they’ll never be this, they’ll never be that’ (not that those saying so were necessarily wrong, it just didn’t stop all the above from having careers).

    Franklin, Putz and Fister all got a shot and by and large, they’ve all made the most of it.

    Maybe just maybe, Peguero and/or Wilson can do the same. Forge a career from nada expectations.

    I do know I’d rather see them try to do so over a WAAAAAY overpaid veteran like Bradley, who I’m convinced has lost either eyesight or reflexes. Maybe both (along with the given losses of brain cells and better judgment).

    Let ‘em play, let’s see what happens.

  54. Westside guy on May 9th, 2011 6:41 pm

    Ooh, Mike better put in those earplugs, the crowd is getting hostile… :-)

  55. DizzleChizzle on May 9th, 2011 6:51 pm

    I haven’t been keeping up with Ackley but I read recently he’s been struggling. You still think he get the call soon?

  56. themedia on May 9th, 2011 7:05 pm

    I’ve been trying to think of a nickname for Cust. I feel like I’ve heard “Custard” in the past, referring to his heft and obvious affinity for desserts, but I like “Custurd” better because you get the triple pun. Cust + Custard + Turd = Custurd.

    All of this is to say: HOW ‘BOUT SOME MORE DFAS???

  57. Steve Nelson on May 9th, 2011 7:57 pm

    @MrZDevotee on May 9th, 2011 5:16 pm

    Bucky is running a hitting academy somewhere up by North Bend… A bunch of Major Leaguers, and prospects, go there in the off season to work on their stroke, watch film of their swing, etc.

    After finishing up his career playing for Tabasco in the Mex League – hitting .229/.289/.343/632 in 35 AB over 9 games.

  58. Auggeydog on May 9th, 2011 8:36 pm

    Since I am not a big sabermetrics guy, I am just learning from reading stuff on this page, I have a question. Watching Saunders hitting is pretty frustrating, but is the problem because he let’s the 1st pitch go just about everytime? I saw a week or so ago they were talking about him leading the league in 0-2 counts, so I started watching, 1st pitch fastballs belt high, inner third of the plate. Pitchers are putting it there, he is taking it. Is there a place to look and see, and can’t Chambliss see it, and kick his butt until he stops? I love his fielding, and wish he could start hitting. Even if he is not a huge power guy, get some doubles and singles.

    MrZDevotee North Bend and Snoqulmie are about 10 minutes apart from each other in the Upper Snoqualmie Valley.

  59. Breadbaker on May 9th, 2011 8:44 pm

    Well, I saw Edgar’s last game, and Griffey’s last game (the last he was officially on the roster; he didn’t play and may not have been in the State of Washington by then), and now Bradley’s last game. I don’t think I’ll be telling the grandchildren about yesterday, though.

  60. SODOMOJO360 on May 9th, 2011 8:53 pm

    Milton Bradley’s wRC+ is 100 despite a lower OBP than Jack Cust, and his split vs. RHP trounces Cust (.317 over a .268 wOBA). Cust has a wRC+ of 90. For positional flexibility and for a bat that is statistically an improvement over Cust, why is Jack still here and Milton gone?
    Milton’s negative WAR is almost all in the field, seeing as Cust is replacement level with a wRC+ of 90. And why do this to recall Carlos Peguero, who is bad, of all people? I get it to bring youth in, but Cust is older and less valuable to the team, so if we’re going to cut anybody…

    Cust has had a bad month. Milton has had a bad 2 years and is a cancer to the team. Easy decision

  61. Typical Idiot Fan on May 9th, 2011 10:36 pm

    Watching Saunders hitting is pretty frustrating, but is the problem because he let’s the 1st pitch go just about everytime?

    It isn’t helping, but it isn’t the “only” problem. I don’t have it handy, but there is some research out there that shows the average or OPS of a player after a 0-1 count, and it’s not good. So, getting down a strike initially can be troublesome to the at bat.

    However, Saunders problems aren’t limited to just getting first pitch strikes. Arguments could be made that he’s getting first pitch strikes because pitchers aren’t scared of him, and / or the pitchers know he wont swing at it due to scouting reports. But even when he’s not getting first pitch strikes or 0-2 counts, he’s not hitting very well. The problem is much greater than just the count situation.

  62. msfanmike on May 9th, 2011 10:40 pm

    Good to see you jumping into the comments to correct misrepresentations every once in awhile.

    And, exactly how did he do that?

    You must have missed my “authoritative” epistle from approx one week ago in regard to the reasons why I believed the metrics which comprise the stat are flawed (IMO). There were others that chimed in regarding the “background” noise value of the stat (BTW).

    Yes, the “you don’t know what you are talking about” rebuttal from today was quite impressive, but perhaps lacking some of the usual insight ordinarily proferred. Interestingly enough however, it was apparently good enough to convince you.

    Since Dave is a busy man, and you being left without an apple to shine for the next day or two … please enlighten me on why the Stat is a good Stat. I would like to know. Thank you.

  63. Typical Idiot Fan on May 9th, 2011 11:33 pm

    please enlighten me on why the Stat is a good Stat.

    It’s a good stat. In fact, it’s quite an genius idea, really. Nobody is arguing that UZR is perfect, and the above comments about how the UZR reports shouldn’t be taken seriously are evidence of that. However, you went beyond mere criticism of UZR and went straight to getting rid of it.

    UZR is a background noise stat with a lot of flaws. Throw it in the hamper … or better yet, the diaper hamper. Then, mail it to whomever you least like.

    I don’t even know how you could call UZR a “background noise stat”. I don’t even know how we’d measure background noise in baseball statistics.

  64. gwangung on May 10th, 2011 8:54 am

    You must have missed my “authoritative” epistle from approx one week ago in regard to the reasons why I believed the metrics which comprise the stat are flawed (IMO).

    I’m afraid I’m not yet convinced that you have the statistical background to make a cogent critique.

  65. msfanmike on May 10th, 2011 9:01 am

    However, you went beyond mere criticism of UZR and went straight to getting rid of it.

    Fair enough, but how valuable is the stat for a scout conducting evaluations of a players ability to play defense? Softness of hands, arm strength, jumps on the ball, path to the ball, etc. etc. etc.

    They aren’t using UZR in those evaluations.

    Maybe we are talking apples to oranges here, but I will defer to the fact that some people believe the stat has some value as an overall compilation of something, although the application of that value in terms of quantifying a players ability to play defense is suspect at best. And, horrible at worst.

    Simply stated, I don’t know what that value of the stat is, but it sure gets mentioned a lot as some sort of measurement of something. I wouldn’t mind someone explaining what that perceived value is, but I just have not ever seen anybody be able to do it effectively, thus the “usefulness” reference (IMO).

  66. Paul B on May 10th, 2011 11:15 am

    I wouldn’t mind someone explaining what that perceived value is, but I just have not ever seen anybody be able to do it effectively, thus the “usefulness” reference (IMO).

    Have you seen this?

    it’s linked on the left side of this page, in the reference material block.

  67. msfanmike on May 10th, 2011 12:36 pm

    Thanks Paul, I have seen the link previoulsly and I understand it (at face value certainly).

    I am conflicted with trying to draw a parallel between the stat itself and how scouts evaluate players/plays and how even the casual fan does the same.

    UZR is certainly a rating of some sort, and it attempts to quantify things that have previously not been. On that premise, I can certainly give it credit.

    However, it appears that it is becoming a frquently referenced stat on this Site as (perhaps) something meaninful, which was my original point of contention. Maybe it is simply mentioned for mentioning sake.

    Other than that, I needed to get “over it” and have, but thank you for the link within the link. Onward!

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