Just Curious
Dave · July 5, 2011 at 9:35 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Does anyone still think Carlos Peguero has any business in the Major Leagues? Everyone realizes he’s atrocious now, right?
The M’s should send him down tomorrow. Literally anyone would be better.
He only got 42 PAs, in which he struck out more than we should expect and hit with an ISO lower than expected, too. I really don’t have any particular hopes for him, but his skillset certainly looks like it should translate better than Peguero’s; it’s way more Major League-caliber, and I don’t know that he needs that much more time to develop. Barring better external options, I’d rather see what he can do over another 100-200 ABs than continue to run Peguero out there.
MrZDevotee,
Saunders was gven too long a leash this year as well, but he was a top prospect who plays very good defense.
Figgins is on a large, four-year contract, and plays 3b.
Peguero’s best chance at a legitimate career involves more training on offense and defense to acquire basic major-league quality skills.
I dont think he’s currently capable of contributing as much as Carp or Langerhans to a pennant drive. I don’t think it’s close.
Doubtful, because Deer drew a few too many walks.
I’m agreeing on Kingman, or Bye Bye Balboni.
That’s probably the 99th percentile upside for Peguero.
Well, his best at bat of the night, the one you refer to, was a shallow fly ball to left. The run would not have scored except the throw was offline.
And there was the tying run in the 9th that dropped in front of him in left.
Since you asked.
I’m truly curious to know why now isn’t the time? When would the time be?
He can provide offense. He can hit homers. Brandon League is who needs to go.
I don’t think Lueke has a future here after his new stories
What stories are these? I haven’t heard anything.
I agree with MrZDevotee entirely, on a team with such awful hitters, why pick on Peguero and continue to pick on him? He was inches from a home run on a foul ball last night, and hit a long fly to the warning track. What other Mariner can even hit a ball to the warning track?
I admit he’s hard to watch sometimes, but he always seems to be involved in the action in positive ways. I disagree with this post, I say he still deserves a shot until the talent evalutators on the Mariners say otherwise and let’s leave us “baseball nerds” out of it.
Because he’s ALSO an awful fielder. Halman and Saunders are competent fielders, which make them better for the Ms to use.
I don’t know how serious this is as MLBTR never seems to be:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/davidoff-on-twins-indians-reyes-rays.html
…but what would Johnny Damon cost and wouldn’t he make sense here in Safeco?
Presently, Peguero doesn’t belong in the major leagues, but which left fielder in this organization does? Carp wasn’t given a chance, Saunders’ leash was too long, Wilson meh…Okay, so maybe Halman is a serviceable 4th outfielder. But, who cares? None of these guys are the answer for a contending team, which no one thinks the Mariners are. I just don’t get why we can’t act like one and try to take advantage of a weaker 2011 West.
I’d rather say, no one else provides a clear upgrade and he powers the wind turbines within Seattle’s energy crisis. I mean at least his potential to make contact is worth a run. Strikeout rates aside, I’m tired of losing to 3 ball walks 1-0. So maybe the evaluators don’t think he deserves a shot, but they don’t have another choice. At least I’d hope those same evaluators that got Smoak, Ackley, Guti, League, Ryan etc. realize this.
So on the tradefront:
Why is Ludwick a better choice than Willingham? Identical contract and most likely same draft pick compensation. Is it defense?
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8760&position=OF
Look at the Plate Discipline numbers.
It is fun to watch Pegeuro play. Crazy things can and do happen. But by any objective measure, he should not be in the Major Leagues.
Watching that game last night, he smashed a long foul ball down the right field line. All the commentators could talk about was how big and strong he was, like he was this amazing player. I know you dont want to devalue a guy from the play by play booth….but come on…it was such a contrast to how poor he is actually hitting. Made me angry.
Peguero needs time in AAA. I think we are actually hurting his chances to succeed in the long run by not having him there.
And our answer to LF is not currently in the organization. We are playing a game of which bruised and nasty apple to take a bite out of.
OK, I’m going to quibble: Raul Ibanez, 2008, 153 games in LF, OPS+ of 123 (293/358/479). And he was a better LF than Peguero, I’d say (for what that’s worth).
I disagree with this post, I say he still deserves a shot until the talent evalutators on the Mariners say otherwise and let’s leave us “baseball nerds” out of it.
So we should shut up with any criticism and say “Z IS TEH AWESUM!1111!” and post about what exactly? How much MORE we agree with whatever Zduriencik is doing than the last commenter? Maybe which of the Mariners is most dreamy, like we’re 13 year olds reading about Justin Bieber in Tiger Beat?
Also, fun fact:
Player A: .643 OPS
Player B: .643 OPS
Player A is Michael Saunders last year, age 23. Player B is Carlos Peguero this year, age 24.
Saunders actually has better minor league stats at the high minors than Peguero, when you account for the fact that he stomped on AAA pitching at age 22, whereas Peguero, well, didn’t at age 24.
Anyone feel like bringing Saunders back up? No? Then why should Peguero be here, given that his stats suck and anyone with eyes can see his defense isn’t good and he needs to learn the strike zone to be an effective major league ballplayer- and he isn’t learning it very well here? (No, hitting an occasional home run and having a .250 on-base percentage doesn’t make you an effective major league ballplayer, sorry.)
How can anyone posting here expect to be taken seriously when they compare offensive numbers of a terrible-fielding LF to numbers of guys playing 3B, SS, 2B and C.
Is there no realization that lower offensive numbers are expected at harder defensive positions anyway?
Strangely, there’s a glimmer of hope for him on that bit, though: his strikeout rate has been declining each month. 45% in April, 35% in May, 31% in June. If he can knock another 3.7% off each month like he did going from May to June, he’d be at league average (around 20.6%) by the end of September.
But this is offset of course by seeing Peguero in the major leagues for 3 more months. He doesn’t need to face major league pitching to learn the strike zone.
Carp isn’t the answer. Especially when Juan Rivera can be had for free. He’d instantly be the 4th best hitter on our team (Behind Ichiro, Smoak and Ackley).
So you’d dump a 3.27 xFIP reliever, 0.9 WAR so far this year, in favor of a .273 wOBA, -0.3 WAR “outfielder”?
Wow.
I assume you meant me. If it wasn’t clear that I was holding up those numbers to highlight how meager Peg has been, sorry.
His walk to strikeout ratio, though, is not improving.
Month, BB, SO
April 0 5
May 3 17
June 4 19
July 0 4
True, and we all agree he belongs in AAA and is not effective. However, I still prefer a guy w/ that “skillset” to any of the other options. The Mariners “offense” is very offensive to my eyes. At least when Peguero steps up, I can either A) Laugh (as he powers the wind turbines) or B) Applaud (as he hits a homerun). Until there is a better option, let Peguero keep swinging. An OBP guy (or someone w/ basic pitch recognition) carries little present value to the Mariners, because the lineup is sooooo bad. I mean I love Ackley and Ichiro, but… At least Peguero provides a 1/20 chance of scoring. The Mariners need an array of mediocre bats, but until he’s blocking a real prospect let Peguero play.
Or some? Didn’t he get called up directly from AA?
Paul, I’m almost certain it’s called sarcasm. Unfortunately, things get lost in translation on the interwebs.
We screwed Carp by not giving him at bats. He was tearing it up in Tacoma and deserved an opportunity to be the guy.
Before Carp was sent down he was hitting .189 id like to know how thats any better then Peguero plus i know this is hard to believe with Pegueros bad defense but Carp isn’t a better OF. Also Carp had his shot before Smoak was traded for he was not doing any good then either some hitters are just AAAA hitters.
This is a relative argument. I’d personally rather see Carp than Peggy. But who else? Does Peguero belong in the Majors at this point in time? Probably not. But this idea that you can say that he will NEVER be a major league player is simply disingenuous. You can’t know that at this point in time, simply said. He is still developing and he has the opportunity to become a Major League player in the future. Or he may flame out. My point isn’t that he will be great, but that he can develop in the future.
The relative question is who else would you rather get Peguero’s at bats? Micheal Saunders? Nope, i’d much rather see Peggy than Saunders.
BTW, despite Cust doing well lately, a replacement for him needs to be found. He is the best DH that this organization can come up with? Seriously. The guy may in fact be the world DH in the majors.
Tell me again why we aren’t trading for Ryan Ludwick?
His .705 OPS would put him third on this team, he plays outfield, and would be a great solution in LF. The Padres stink, they are about to go into deal mode, and would solve a lot of our problems.
He’s still awful because tonight he did nothing to lose the game, but did something to help win it?
Partly responsible for 1/3 of our runs tonight… And we need to get him out of here? Because a rookie looked awful against the 2nd best pitching staff in the AL?
Remember that long discussion we had a few weeks ago about sample sizes, when they stabilize and become meaningful, and so on?
Last night was a stark reminder of Peguero’s unique unsuitability for a slot of a major league roster because of his obviously atrocious AB and defense in crucial game situations in the 9th inning. My eyeballs tell me exactly what the pitch-by-pitch stats do: he doesn’t belong on a major league roster. And the notion that we’ve got no one else is just silly–outfielders moderately better than him are widely and cheaply available, but even within the organization, Langerhans, Carp, and even Halman would be better.
Peguero might be terrible, but he’s no Yuniesky Betancourt.
I’m sure Z is working on a trade. There’s enough demand for outfielders that I’m sure everyone’s sitting on their assets until the deadline.
An OBP guy (or someone w/ basic pitch recognition) carries little present value to the Mariners, because the lineup is sooooo bad.
So this argument boils down to “I’m going to ignore everything that’s been written about sabremetrics since before Pete Palmer and Bill James and pretend it doesn’t exist, because, uh, dingers! Chicks dig the longball!”
Hint: if you don’t make an out and put a runner on base, you’ve done something that helps you score a run. The Mariners need more players who can do that. Power is not the only way to score runs.
He is still developing and he has the opportunity to become a Major League player in the future
OK, so so this argument boils down to “don’t bother with minor league systems or talent evaluation at all”, since you can make this argument about literally ANY player in professional baseball under the age of 30.
Hey, let’s try this with other things…
Is Brendan Ryan a power hitter at this time? Probably not. But this idea that you can say that he will NEVER be a power hitter is simply disingenuous. You can’t know that at this point in time, simply said. He is still developing and he has the opportunity to become a slugger in the future- I mean, guys like Darren Erstad and Brady Anderson developed surprising power, right? Or he may just be a slap hitter like he is now. My point isn’t that he will be great, but that he can develop in the future.
If you’re not going to actually use things like evidence and statistics, that’s what we’re left with- you can literally make arguments like this for ANYTHING you want in MLB.
I don’t believe it was sarcasm. League just blew a save last night, and there are people on this site who manage see all the times he’s come in and pitched well as basically an aberration and the few games he’s pitched poorly as his true talent level (probably thanks to that week where he blew several in a row).
It doesn’t make much sense, but people’s opinions don’t always make have significant logic behind them (and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this somewhere/sometime).
The problem here is created by the fact that this season was anticipated to be about development has unexpectedly turned out to be about contention, thanks to the mediocrity of the division. If you had told me in April that the M’s would be 43-43, I would not have argued; if you told me that would be good enough for 2.5 games back, I would have been.
In terms of development, Saunders fell flat on his face and thus created this problem. He was the only MLB-ready prospect who projected as an every day OF; the rest are 4th OF types at best, including Peguero. And I think we can all agree his development, whatever his ceiling, is not best served in the majors.
I would love to see the team push for a playoff spot, but finding a merely serviceable replacement for Peguero gets us marginally closer. An impact bat is probably not to be had, at least not at a price we’d be willing to pay. So I would say Carp deserves a longer and more regular audition and Peguero needs more time in Tacoma, but this team doesn’t habitually score fewer than 3 runs because of a rookie LF no one expected to see with the big club this year.
Apologies for the last post; done on my Blackberry, so I had trouble proofreading. Yikes.
Peg has proven he’s not ready yet. He’s been good at times, but he has struggled terribly recently and it’s time to send him back.
I think the FO was banking on Saunders in LF and now they are panicking. Now they are desperate for Peguero to step up and have been overly optimistic about him. I think some people got frustrated by this and overcompensated by being a bit too hard on him. Regardless, the M’s were right to give him a chance, but they should send him down. I think and hope they will. Hopefully they are just waiting for a deal to go through and don’t want to replace him in the meantime.
Also, I’d rather see Halman than a slower, worse fielding version of Halman who has a little more power.
To say that Peguero has no business in the bigs (which, admittedly, is probably true), is to invite the question of whether Jack Z has any business being a big league GM. After all, left field had been vacant essentially since he took the job …
Not sure if this has been mentioned but what about a Figgins for Jason Bay deal? Bay makes 16 million in 2012 and 2013 while Figgins makes 9 million both of those seasons. If the M’s could get the Mets to kick in some cash to even things out a bit more, that kind of a deal could be interesting.
Bay could be a nice bounce back type guy and would be a potential middle of the order type bat who could solve LF. He would be coming back to the Northwest and would likely be pretty excited about that too.
Both teams would essentially be swapping their problems. Bay seems to have lost some power the last couple years although he hit 2 HR last night.
David Wright would obviously be a great guy to get but it would cost the moon. However, my guess is the M’s would be open to trading him as his contract is up after next year.
Reread my post. You completely missed my point/s.
Do not patronize or attack. I understand this concept hence the sentiment “carries little PRESENT value…the lineup is sooooo bad.” I simply stated I would rather laugh or applaud Peguero because at least when he makes contact the Mariners may score, and there are no clear cut in-house alternatives. Ichiro’s talent gets wasted because the Mariners do not have sufficient major league talent to consistently bring him in. Not making an out doesn’t help when guys after you make outs, and stating the Mariners need more players who can do that is like saying Felix is an effective pitcher.
I don’t need to use evidence, everyone agrees Peguero does not belong. I am simply stating I’d rather watch him try and fail than watch someone else. Peguero is not blocking anyone.
I believe that is directed at me. I would rather see Carp come up when the M’s are out of the playoff race. Is he a better option then Peguero? Probably. I hate seeing Peguero out there too.
Anyway, my stupid fan opinion (how would I know everything, I have a job and a family and I am not a baseball writer or anything like that…) is go with Langerhans.
1)Z tried a bad contract swap and it didn’t work out.
2)He allowed Saunders to sink.
3)The Langerhans/Morse swap didn’t do much. (I still think Langerhans could be serviceable)
4)Carp, Peguero, Halman etc. hasn’t worked either.
I see what you’re doing here, but in fairness to Z we can’t interpret the process, just the results.
and on cue Peg strikes out. It was sure fun to think what could’ve been w/ that changeup in the upperdeck.
Agreed. We can only interpret the results. And the M’s are angling to score the fewest runs in the league for the third straight season (they were 2nd to last in 2008). Jack Z.’s fault? sure, obviously he inherited a team in disrepair – but at this point, only Ichiro predates him as far as position players go. This is his team.
All the hate for Peguero is a little misplaced. I think Guti and Figgins look far far worse at the plate than a rookie called up making 350k a year.
He has even won some games for us. He still has a lot to figure out at the plate but it’s not like the M’s are benching Ryan Braun to play Peguero. If the M’s want to get an established outfielder to play left then by all means I’m behind them, until that day hopefully comes though it’s not like the Mariners have a lot of options.
It goes without saying that the Mariners have no shot to win the A.L. west unless they get serious about bringing in some consistent bats. Just don’t hate on a young guy in a tough situation. He tries which is a lot more than can be said about Figgins.
“We have not had a regular, productive LF since Phil Bradley. That was a long time ago. Time to think bigger. We are a major league team and not the padres after all…oh ya…they have a regular, productive LF and 3B.”
You forgetting about Raul Ibanez? Sure not the best defensively but provided consistant offense.
Yeah, Bradley wasn’t a great defender either. Ibanez was a solid left fielder. So was Randy Winn (though he played in center, too). Rather than focus on a power guy like Ludwick or Cuddyer (who might cost more), I’d rather the Mariners acquire a guy like Randy Winn. Maybe Angel Pagan or Coco Crisp. Very versatile players with average bats and good defense/speed.
Hi all,
I was the guy railing at Dave for picking on P before. There’s no question, he’s got some work to do before he’s a major league guy. I hope he can learn what he needs to and he can contribute in the future.
The team doesn’t have much better in the meantime until they can trade or whatever. Hopefully this will be some kind of seasoning for him before he is a 260/300/500 slugger for a few years!
Yes and I’m tired of watching the worst offense too. However, even though Ichiro is the only position player that predates Z, I still consider the $ /contract situations he inherited. I mean without Silva would he have considered Bradley? Would Kotchman have really been sought after?
This offseason will be the first time Z cannot blame Bavasi for any paths taken.
Yes, I agree with you. He is NOT a major league player, at least yet. The maturity level at the plate is like a impatient high-schooler. He swings at EVERYTHING and even admitted that he only can hit the fastball. Wow, that’s an easy scouting report for opposing pitchers. Throw curveballs low and inside everytime. I like how people say “but he swings hard and has 6 home runs.” Who cares.. anybody can swing hard. It shows his lack of control. And his 6 homeruns.. I think that may be his only hits, the rest of the time he’s an automatic strike-out. Uhhhh…. I think Coco Crisp would be a good addition if we can get him. Thoughts?