Game 23, Mariners at Astros

Dave · April 24, 2013 at 10:55 am · Filed Under Mariners 

Saunders vs Harrell, 11:05 am.

Big news of the day – Brendan Ryan is being displaced by Robert Andino as the starting shortstop. Eric Wedge has had enough of Ryan’s offensive ineptitude, so instead of having a great defender who can’t hit, the Mariners are going to lean on a mediocre defender who can’t hit. That should solve all of their problems.

On the one hand, it’s dumb, because Brendan Ryan is clearly better than Robert Andino. On the other hand, none of this matters. Ryan wasn’t part of the long term future here, and I figured he’d hold the job until the summer, when the team promoted Brad Miller to take his spot after trading him to a contender who wanted a defensive replacement on the bench. The gap between Ryan and Andino isn’t going to change things drastically over the next couple of months, and this swap might even hasten Miller’s call to the big leagues. The end product of this decision will be a marginal loss of value in a season that is headed down the tubes.

But, like pretty much every other move the organization and this manager have made in the last few years, it shows a continuing lack of ability to actually analyze or accumulate talent. The fact that Robert Andino — a replacement level player — is now the starting shortstop on a team that had aspirations to win is hilarious. The Mariners tried to sell the idea of an improved roster based on false hope, and now they’re starting Andino, Kelly Shoppach, Endy Chavez, and Raul Ibanez more often than not.

This roster was poorly put together, and every crack has been exposed early. This is the kind of roster that gets people fired. This is the kind of roster that a GM deserves to get fired for. It won’t happen until the end of the season, because you can’t lure good GM candidates from other organizations in the middle of the year, but this is the kind of disaster that the front office had to avoid in order to keep their jobs.

Starting Robert Andino is a disaster. Just like starting Endy Chavez and Raul Ibanez is a disaster. Yeah, they’ve had injuries and under-performances, but these are the alternatives that this organization chose to have around. The Mariners are reaping what they’ve sowed.

1. Chavez, CF
2. Seager, 3B
3. Morales, DH
4. Morse, RF
5. Smoak, 1B
6. Ibanez, LF
7. Shoppach, C
8. Ackley, 2B
9. Andino, SS

Comments

153 Responses to “Game 23, Mariners at Astros”

  1. CCW on April 24th, 2013 11:07 am

    What a cluster… As I mentioned in comments a week or so ago (before being lambasted by the small sample size patrol), just about every weakness that was identified prior to the season has actually (and somewhat remarkably) manifested. Shallow OF, bad defense, SLG but no OBP, bad back end of the rotation, etc. Because it’s baseball, things certainly could have gone differently, and they certainly could still change, but right now, it *feels* like watching trains collide in slow-motion.

  2. mrnostalgia on April 24th, 2013 11:08 am

    Great points Dave. Your analysis is…depressingly realistic. I really had hope Z could pull it off this year.

  3. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 11:08 am

    How do they proceed with Miller? I hope he doesn’t skip AAA. Call up Triunfel for a bit to get Miller a spot in Tacoma?

  4. Bremerton guy on April 24th, 2013 11:10 am

    I mostly agree, but it seems to me Endy has been one bright spot among a bunch of burnt out lightbulbs.

  5. jordan on April 24th, 2013 11:12 am

    Our own announcer is more excited to watch the umpire work than he is to watch the game..

  6. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 11:32 am

    Can you really say Endy has been a “bright spot”? He’s really not very good and hasn’t really been very good this year, either. Seager is a bright spot to me, Endy is simply not as embarrassing as some other outfielders.

  7. Bodhizefa on April 24th, 2013 11:33 am

    I love how we bench Ryan who can’t hit but is a great fielder while we play Smoak every single day, and he can’t hit OR field. This team is hopeless. I can’t wait for a new front office regime to reenthuse me.

    Here’s hoping we see Miller, Hultzen and Zunino in June so I can stand to watch non Felix and Iwakuma M’s games again.

  8. jordan on April 24th, 2013 11:34 am

    Hey… Casper is an A now.

  9. casey on April 24th, 2013 11:35 am

    Ibanez is hitting as poorly as Ryan and unlike Ryan he can’t field a lick. Hope Wedge will be having a serious conversation with Ibanez soon…

  10. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 11:38 am

    Endy was brought in to play CF and hit above .200 so I’m temporarily thrilled to have him. I hold little hope for Smoak but no point benching him while he’s showing a glimmer of hope. Maybe trade him if he gets his numbers up.

  11. greentunic on April 24th, 2013 11:39 am

    Ya, Raul has been terrible in every aspect of the game. Even his ambiguous “leadership” role hasn’t played dividends when we look at the younger players.

    BTW how does a person have referent leadership if he looks like a little leaguer in the field and an old minor leaguer at the plate?

  12. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 11:40 am

    Yes, if Raul can’t hit better in the next few weeks he should retire

  13. greentunic on April 24th, 2013 11:43 am

    Ya, then we should get Arid after his contract, then Ichiro again, then maybe get Randy to come out of retirement.

    Seattle Mariners: Bringing back your childhood heroes till things get awkward.

  14. Paul B on April 24th, 2013 11:43 am

    Endy is replacement level. From my perspective, the advantage of having him on the team is that I actually like to watch him play. Unlike some others.

    Ibanez not a surprise. Last year he was abysmal away from the cozy confines of Yankee stadium. And he’s a year older now.

    The radio announcers have been putting a smiley face on it by saying that now Andino will get to play every day, he’ll get into a rhythm and he will hit better. This is a guy with over 1400
    AB in the bigs and a 67 OPS+. OK, so that’s about Smoak level, or Endy Chavez level, and is better than our left fielder and second baseman are doing. So, faint praise.

  15. Mike Snow on April 24th, 2013 11:44 am

    Hmmm… how can you reap what you sew, exactly? Does that require making, say, a scythe out of needle and thread? Or is it something that involves putting a scarecrow out to harvest a field of wheat, perhaps?

  16. Paul B on April 24th, 2013 11:45 am

    Or maybe having a field of scarecrows, and then harvesting them with a reaper?

  17. Mike Snow on April 24th, 2013 11:49 am

    Possibly an apt metaphor for what’s happening in the Mariners’ outfield.

  18. Choo on April 24th, 2013 11:49 am

    Well, that was the last straw for me. I cannot fathom how people who do this for a living, at this level, could assemble this roster and put this team on the field ON PURPOSE!

  19. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 11:51 am

    It’s still April … early in the season. We can overlook a “sow for sewn” reference, I imagine.

    I have a boss who very recently wrote the phrase, “past the mustard” within an e-mail message. Yeah, the boss. Not “pass muster” – mind you, but “past the Mustard.”

    Clearly he has already aspired to his level of incompetence while mine still awaits me.

    In regard to Ibanez, he probably should be confined to pinch-hitting for A-Rod, exclusively.

  20. Paul B on April 24th, 2013 11:52 am

    It’s a symptom of valuing old statistics and old cliches about veteran goodness, it’s why we had to watch Olivo for so long — homers and caught stealing, gee he’s a great catcher.

  21. Paul B on April 24th, 2013 11:53 am

    We can overlook a “sow for sewn” reference, I imagine.

    But that’s no fun!

  22. Mike Snow on April 24th, 2013 11:56 am

    Oh, I don’t mean any criticism by calling attention to it. Normally, since I still have moderator access, I’d just make the minor edit necessary to correct the post. In this case, it’s simply that the chance to play around with it was too attractive to pass up.

  23. DarkKnight1680 on April 24th, 2013 12:04 pm

    I think many of us have been sick of this regime for a while now. The inability to hire a competent or inventive manager, the consistent refusal to evaluate their own talent at all, the constant string of retreads, the questionable to terrible trades…other than some success in the post-first-round of the draft, there’s really nothing that stands out as positive in this management group. It’s time for a change, and it may have to wait until the end of the year but we can start dreaming now.

  24. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:09 pm

    “It’s still April … early in the season. We can overlook a “sow for sewn” reference, I imagine.”

    Well, YEAH… It’s a very small fabric sample size…?!

    (Geesh the decision making just keeps going downhill when they already started the season pretty low on the hill, facing the wrong direction…

    The whole fanbase yelling at the team and front office… “psst– HEY GUYS (pointing up the hill)… It’s THAT way! Hey, ‘Wrong-Way-Wedge’, we need to be going UP the hill of sucky, not down it!”

  25. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:14 pm

    And…
    MsFanMike, I think the “past the mustard” comment is apropro, if it was about the M’s.

    It takes a long time for mustard to go bad, but we have quite a few guys who are “past the mustard” on this team.

    (Ahh, screw it, I can’t even stick all the way through the pun… “PAST THE MUSTARD!” That’s ridiculously hilarious, in a “I bet Wedge has said that” way…

    Wedge: “That was awful… The way you guys were playing out there DOESN’T EVEN PAST THE MUSTARD! I’m fucking pissed.”
    (In true “misunderstanding how things are done” Mariner fashion, Brenday Ryan hands him a bottle of French’s Yellow Mustard…)
    “Your benched, Ryan… Where’s Andino!?”)

  26. thurston24 on April 24th, 2013 12:17 pm

    Well, if they do get rid of the regime. I’m hoping that they keep Macnamara, he has done very well.

  27. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:17 pm

    And the Moose… Keep the moose. Y’know, a reminder of decisions that make no sense at all. A moose?

  28. Paul B on April 24th, 2013 12:19 pm

    Ronnie Cedeno. Huh.

  29. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:22 pm

    (scary thought warning)

    Um, why am I really REALLY afraid of the words “Bobby” and “Valentine” right now?

    Now THERE’s a grizzled veteran that would fit right in with our front office’s ability to evaluate talent absolutely WRONGLY!

    (Oh man… Turns out this CAN get worse…)

  30. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 12:23 pm

    Back in the day, you could say “pass the mustard” when we had bases loaded and wanted a salami but that’s in the past

  31. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 12:25 pm

    Mike, I am wishing that you had “moderator access” to the M’s front office.

  32. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:25 pm

    Waco
    You brought it full circle… Because indeed, nowadays, we are “past the mustard”…

    Maybe it’s a phrase for the Mariner’s era of baseball post-Dave Niehaus? I like that.

  33. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 12:31 pm

    PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!

    Who could have ever imagined Andino hitting into a GIDP

  34. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 12:33 pm

    On the plus side, Ackley is looking better

  35. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 12:33 pm

    Getting swept by the Astros should get people fired.

  36. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 12:33 pm

    This thread has taken a very philosophical turn. I guess that’s what happens when you’re being 3-hit by a guy with a 15/13 K/BB ratio.

  37. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:34 pm

    (raises hand, sadly… too exhausted to play along)

  38. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:34 pm

    We are not only past the mustard, but we’re fresh out of salami as well…

  39. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 12:34 pm

    … but we can’t get swept, Westy. It only feels like we can be swept.

  40. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:35 pm

    Westy-
    Mike pointed that out to me about the first series, where I thought we got swept… Felix won the first game of this series (#100!)

  41. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:36 pm

    Losing a series to the Astros, Pirates or Marlins is as good as being swept…

  42. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 12:37 pm

    We won a game? Oh that’s really sad – I’d already forgotten Felix’s 100th!

    Seriously.

  43. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:37 pm

    nvn8-
    I see what you did… That was a rye little twist to the threat there… *yuk yuk*

  44. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 12:37 pm

    After the Angels sweep us, then the firings shall commence.

  45. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:38 pm

    Westy-
    Don’t feel bad, I serioulsy remembered us being swept by the Astros in Seattle… I was lamenting we’d be 1-5 against them if we lost today… But not even– 2-6, baby!!!

    (Thanks again MsFan… for that, er, maybe uplifting is too big of a work, but for the reminder…)

  46. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 12:39 pm

    Serious question here – is anyone here that still doesn’t think Jack Z is part of the problem?

    I really do think he is basically a slightly smarter Dayton Moore. He knows how to draft talent and build a farm system, but basically has no idea what to do beyond that.

  47. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:39 pm

    Westy, it’s easy to forget.

    - Bryce

  48. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 12:39 pm

    2-4, actually. But still.

  49. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:39 pm

    MsFanMike–
    I think the right time for firings would be after Jason Vargas no-hits us…?

  50. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:41 pm

    (looks at the “4″ on my keyboard… Then the “6″… And scratches head… Thanks Spuuky. I knew that. 3+3 is… 6… I guess, in keeping with the theme, it STILL feels like 6 losses even if we won two. *laugh*)

  51. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:42 pm

    MrZ, the right time is after losing to the Astros…

  52. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 12:42 pm

    Depending on this TV deal, if I were Jack Z and they fired me, upped the payroll, and then did better, I’d be pissed. Not to make excuses. Just sayin

  53. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:43 pm

    Waco-
    If I was Jack Z I’d be pissed…

    If I was ME (a fan) I wouldn’t be, though… And I’m selfish. (nods)

  54. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:45 pm

    Waco, if Bryce was Jack Z, wouldn’t be pissed at anyone except myself and maybe HowChuck. It’s incumbent on the GM to put the team in the best possible position to win games and its painfully obvious that Jack has failed to do so.

  55. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:45 pm

    Kick in that new M’s motto:

    “2 On, No Out! (What could possibly go wrong?)”

    C’mon fellas… score some runs.

  56. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 12:46 pm

    For god’s sake, I don’t know how many more double plays I can take. We’re really desperate to keep our league lead.

  57. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:47 pm

    The Seattle Mariners: We’ll ground into double plays every day or your next ticket is free!”

  58. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 12:47 pm

    Ugh. Just happened to look at the wrong part of the Gameday screen…

    On deck: Raul Ibañez .154

  59. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:48 pm

    Paging Mr. Mendoza…

  60. The_Waco_Kid on April 24th, 2013 12:48 pm

    How many GMs can they fire? At this point, only change above Z would change anything in my mind

  61. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 12:50 pm

    I still believe they should try hiring Kim Ng.

  62. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 12:50 pm

    Waco, the only change I can see happening is Nintendo selling off the M’s.

  63. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:50 pm

    Mario Mendoza…

    Robert Andino…

    Brendan Ryan…

    Say hello to “perspective”– the worst hitting Mariner short stop of all time (Mendoza) whose name is synonymous with awful hitting in the League, is the best hitting SS of the 3… Wow.

  64. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:53 pm

    The M’s do kinda have a neat new record they’re pursuing… At one point last week we had TURNED the most DP’s in the league, too (on defense)… Might still lead, I’m not sure?

    Has a team ever led the league in both:

    Turning DP’s
    and
    HIDP’s?

    Fascinating.

  65. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 12:56 pm

    (watching more runs score…)

    Pretty sure the Astros have rented a huge hall, hired a band, they’re gonna have an open bar. The Mayor’s coming… Nolan Ryan’s coming, Roger Clemens, all the big names… It’s a historical day.

    Tonight’s the big “At Least We Weren’t The Worst Team To Play At This Stadium This Year” party. (Tip of the cap to the M’s)

  66. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 1:00 pm

    I’m not sure the Astros really deserve the title “worst team in baseball”.

    Not with the Mariners in the same league – even the same division!

  67. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:01 pm

    Would it be too crass to have two friends show up at an M’s game with Ryan and Andino’s numbers on their “authentic” jerseys, but both have “Mendoza” as the name on the back…?

    *laugh*

  68. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:04 pm

    I also dare ANYONE to stand within 5 feet of Jon Garland and say:

    “I heard you got beat out by Blake Beavan this spring? (Then nod knowingly) Wow.”

  69. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 1:05 pm

    Mike, are you SURE this doesn’t count as a sweep?

  70. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:07 pm

    Hire Chris Antonetti Mike Chernoff?

  71. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:08 pm

    The Will Farrell/Jack Black idea isn’t sounding so bad right about now…

    Macklemore in CF?

  72. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:10 pm

    In Beavan’s defense, his K/HR ratio is a respectable 9/5…

    Oh wait, what? It’s supposed to be K’s to walks?

    Yeah, 5 homeruns in 16 innings isn’t too hot is it?

  73. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 1:11 pm

    I wouldn’t be too upset if they hired Pete Carroll to “manage” the Mariners.

  74. kfrei2 on April 24th, 2013 1:12 pm

    I don’t think I’ve ever been ready to give up on a team before the end of April before. Not even in 2008 or 2010.

    This sucks.

  75. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:14 pm

    Seriously though. Wedge needs to be fired. Or Jack Z is gonna lose the team… The young guys are gonna turn off, tune out. Veterans too.

    This game is the one that actually says “you waited TOO long to do it.”

    This just flat shouldn’t happen. And putting Beavan in is the exclamation point. Shouldn’t happen that way.

  76. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 1:17 pm

    Putting Beavan in is perfectly reasonable if you believe that the deficit at the time was already insurmountable.

  77. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:17 pm

    Also: talk about a 180 from where we were around the time of the Cliff Lee trade, where it looked like it was Jack Zduriencik, Super Genius™.

    And then he chased the Billy Beane the Road Runner off the cliff, and looked down…

  78. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 1:18 pm

    Felix could have played anywhere he wanted, yet he re-signed with the M’s. Unfortunately he will never experience the World Series, yet a playoff game, while employed by the M’s. Although he can afford to rent several stadium suites to watch the big games.

  79. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 1:22 pm

    Beavan striking out the side? Is that a first?

  80. Swungonandbelted on April 24th, 2013 1:22 pm

    So who are the up and coming GM candidates that we’ll be looking at after the season?

  81. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 1:22 pm

    Putting my Mariner warm-up jacket back into the closet. Just had it dry-cleaned at the end of spring training.

    Beavan struck out the side…no way!

  82. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:22 pm

    Seriously though. Wedge needs to be fired. Or Jack Z is gonna lose the team

    What makes you think this is about the field manager? Oh, and who hired that guy and fired the last guy?

    At some point, blaming Bill Bavasi’s reign of error or the field manager for this team’s continual talent deficit and poor roster decisions doesn’t fly. The Cossacks work for the Tsar.

    The last couple of years, a lot of decisions have flown in the face of the logic you’d get from sabremetrics. That only works if you end up with good results (and some teams do). If the process is leading to bad results over and over again… time for a new process.

  83. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:25 pm

    Alrighty off to do some work… Can’t justify the procrastination any longer…

  84. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:26 pm

    Eponymous-
    I’m not pinning it all on Wedge, but that’s WHO gets fired when it’s time to shake up the team…

    You can’t fire the players. And Jack’s not gonna fire himself…

    So, bu-bye Wedgey.

    That’s all I was saying.

    Okay NOW I’m getting back to work… Really. *laugh*

  85. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 1:28 pm

    I’m ready for 10 runs over the last two innings, which becomes a turning point for the entire organization.

  86. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:30 pm

    Also Eponymous-
    I agree though, given my druthers I’d clean house, up to the ownership level.

    In fact if I was the REAL owner, I’d sell my majority holding to someone else, especially in the shadow of controlling their own TV deal, and let THEM clean up this mess… My guys have made it too deep.

    And I’m too old/tired for this shit. (All said in Japanese, if I knew how.)

  87. David on April 24th, 2013 1:30 pm

    Going back to the sow/sew issue (which was more exciting than the actual game): “A stitch in time will not score nine.”

  88. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 1:33 pm

    The M’s know how to bat. They just don’t know how to hit.

    Hitting coach is next to be fired. Always the scapegoat.

  89. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:34 pm

    This game has gotten WAY past the mustard– there’s no way we’re gonna ketchup.

    (See the problem is I’m updating software today, and I hate UPDATING software, so procrastinating is really easy… Work can wait.)

    *actually I just shut down that computer to restart, and have the laptop out*

  90. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:35 pm

    Highlights,
    There’s a chance they know hot to hit, but only after 3 strikes… And therein lies the problem.

    Which brings up an interesting idea– has a hitting coach (in high school, little league) ever instituted a practice regime where you get 1 strike and you’re out (ie, EVERY pitch/at bat is with 2 strikes on you)… And I wonder if that translates to better at bats in real games with fewer than 2 strikes, as well as better comfort with 2 strikes?

    Hmmm.

  91. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:39 pm

    I’m not pinning it all on Wedge, but that’s WHO gets fired when it’s time to shake up the team…

    At which point the interim manager gets hired, and everyone gets to update their resume…

  92. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:41 pm

    But the message to the fans takes on a new tone– we at least can believe SOMEONE THERE also thinks this is unacceptable… Even if “interim” is the short term solution.

    Change is being mandated. You have to say that. You HAVE to, or Z is fired too when it drags on.

    Just predicting here, not saying that’s the right move (I just said what my move would be: top to bottom!)

  93. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 1:41 pm

    eponymous… I understood Wedge was the interim manager.

  94. qwerty on April 24th, 2013 1:43 pm

    “Ibanez is hitting as poorly as Ryan and unlike Ryan he can’t field a lick. Hope Wedge will be having a serious conversation with Ibanez soon…”

    In listening to the pregame, it sounds like he called out all his veterans and that Andino starting was not a permanent move.

  95. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:43 pm

    Eponymous-
    Think of when we fired Wakamatsu… A burst of hope for all of Mariner nation springs eternal in the shadow of the move, as opposed to the increasing speed and slope of the train wreck if you don’t.

    (Again, from the GM’s eyes)

  96. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:45 pm

    And admittedly, small sample size theatre, but being outscored 38-25 in (almost) 6 games against a team that is deliberately throwing 2013 away, to the tune of a $30 million roster?

    Talk about a disaster…

  97. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:47 pm

    God, I forgot how SMALL the Astros’ payroll is this year. That’s crazy.

    (I mean, smart for a new owner, restructing an organization… But crazy for the results the Mariners are seeing versus them…)

  98. qwerty on April 24th, 2013 1:47 pm

    Serious question: who ultimately decides on the roster out of spring? Does Wedge push to keep Bay and not keep Garland? or does FO tell him.
    I want to know who to blame for this roster. Z built the pile of talent, but Wedge picks out which pieces to use, right?

  99. stevemotivateir on April 24th, 2013 1:49 pm

    I really wonder if Jack’s ability to wheel and deal will be restricted. If Chuck and Howard have already made up their minds to let Jack go, you’d think they’d be careful with what they allow from here out.

    Getting back to the current game, if you can call it that, I really wonder why Wedge keeps running Ibanez out there. It’s as if he’s playing the odds, somehow thinking he’s due for something big.

  100. eponymous coward on April 24th, 2013 1:51 pm

    Think of when we fired Wakamatsu… A burst of hope for all of Mariner nation springs eternal in the shadow of the move, as opposed to the increasing speed and slope of the train wreck if you don’t.

    And did the replacement for Wak get to stay on?

    Also, remember what happened in 2008? Bavasi’s 5th year (so a year longer than Zduriencik’s had)? Manager fired… and so was Bavasi by end of the season.

    It’s all deck chairs on the Titanic when you’re firing a manager after a bad start to the season, 4 years into a GM’s career where they started out good his first year and collapsed into various bad teams thereafter.

    Firing Wedge is very unlikely to save Z’s job or make much of a difference in results; it’s basically capitulating to “well, we ****ed that one up”. It also means more organizational churn.

  101. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:55 pm

    Eponymous-
    Agreed… Minus a miracle turn around I can’t see Z getting a new contract at the rate this team is “improving”…

    But it buys him time. Buys the fans’ some “time” in regards to patience to put up with it. Any bit of “hope” at this point wins you a small “bounce” of positive feelings with the fans, or slows the bleeding, or lances the wound, any number of not very positive/pleasant metaphors.

  102. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 1:59 pm

    The saddest note was I really had hopes of these two series (Astros and Angels) helping us right the ship and get some momentum. Reach for .500, get everyone healthy and back, see what happens… A little ambition for something like 4-2 against them…

    Oops.

    We’re such a strange team when we follow our now predictable pattern of “hanging tough with the good teams, and playing awful against the bad”… It’s not an ALWAYS thing, but man it happens alot. The series with Detroit and the Rangers were mostly solid, the rest haven’t been.

    Sort of like the Husky men’s basketball program. Almost beat the good teams, and almost look awful against the bad teams. Otherwise, mostly “meh”.

  103. vj on April 24th, 2013 2:00 pm

    Did anyone notice that the Ms scored three hits and two runs in the final inning?

    And it looks like Jeff picked a good season to retire as a permanent Mariners blogger.

  104. Bremerton guy on April 24th, 2013 2:22 pm

    If they don’t do something drastic to right this ship, I’ll maybe go to one game this year — to take my now adult daughter to continue a tradition she and I started back when she was a toddler and going to games (at least 10 per year) back in the Kingdome. But I really can’t stomach this crap. I’m just about tuned out. And if I’m tuned out, there’s a whole lot of others that are as well.

  105. stevemotivateir on April 24th, 2013 2:23 pm

    This would be a good time for one of Dave’s offseason plans, simply retitled and applied accordingly.

    While some people joke about it, I’d be seriously interested to see him replace Jack immediately, even if only on an interim basis. Wedge fired simultaneously, of course.

  106. evolvingcaveman on April 24th, 2013 2:40 pm

    The Mariner’s public attitude toward the possible basketball arena didn’t help with the PR or attendence or fan interest either. It’s in the back of my brain everytime I decide I’m disgusted enough to turn a game off when in the past I would’ve stuck it out in hopes of a 9th inning Ackley double or Smoak HR like today. It would’ve been enough to salve the wounds in the past. Now it’s hard to really care and I wish I could predict the future to see if firing Wedge would make a difference with our current roster. Same with firing the GM at the end of the year. I’d rather just win and change nothing but that hasn’t worked out despite all my fingers crossed.

  107. mrakbaseball on April 24th, 2013 2:42 pm

    Both McLaren and Bavasi were fired during the ’08 season, the same thing will probably happen to Zduriencik and Wedge this year. Who will complain?

  108. Jon on April 24th, 2013 2:46 pm

    A consistent observation by many during the off-season was that the addition of the Astros to the AL West was an obvious boon to the Mariners, because they would have 19 games against a terrible opponent. The flaw in that reasoning, it seemed obvious to me, was that all three teams ahead of us in the West had the same number of games against the Astros, so even if the M’s did well against Houston, they needed to be better against them than each of the other divisional foes, which seemed unlikely. Of course, there was also the unstated assumption that the M’s would handle the Astros with ease. So far, so bad. Yes, the M’s could still win 10 or more of the remaining games against the Astros, but they really needed to pad their record against them early in order to build player confidence and fan support. What is the opposite of building confidence and support? That’s what the M’s have. Goodbye Wedgie.

  109. stevemotivateir on April 24th, 2013 2:47 pm

    While I’m on board with firing both of them, I don’t think much would change with the current roster. The players are very much a part of the problem.

  110. mrakbaseball on April 24th, 2013 2:48 pm

    Zduriencik acquired the players.

  111. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 2:51 pm

    This is GMZ’s 5th year at the helm (2009 – 2013), not his 4th year.

    Granted, 2010 through today seems like one really god-damned long year, but facts are facts.

  112. mrakbaseball on April 24th, 2013 2:52 pm

    Apparently Eric Wedge held a closed door meeting, where he was quite “vocal” with the players and emerged with his face red. Adult males always always respond to a good tongue lashing from a guy with Wedge’s credentials. The guy is done.

  113. Swungonandbelted on April 24th, 2013 2:52 pm

    I look in the minors, and I don’t see a quick way out of this. Unless a Wedge/Z firing comes with a stud manager/ stud GM/ ownership willing to buy their way out of sucktitude, I just don’t see many scenarios where there are enough good young players in this organization to move this team forward.

  114. msfanmike on April 24th, 2013 2:54 pm

    “SPIN THIS” – ZWedge. SPIN THIS!!!

  115. bongo on April 24th, 2013 3:04 pm

    It’s time to shake up the team. Fire Wedge. DFA Ibanez, send down Smoak, Ackley and Beaven, bring up Triunfel, Franklin and Erasmo Ramirez.

  116. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 3:12 pm

    Time to clean house…again. But flush the system all the way this time… ownership management, managers, player development personnel and players. Of course except for Felix and some prospects.

    Does Felix have a no trade clause? Would the Yankees pay $400 million for his services?

  117. spuuky on April 24th, 2013 3:14 pm

    Bring up Erasmo? Has he even pitched yet this year?

  118. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 3:22 pm

    MLB run differential: M’s are next to last at -37. Marlins are -44.

    Wondering how well the M’s could do in the NL? First, M’s need to show something deserving of a promotion from AAAA.

  119. beadyeyes123 on April 24th, 2013 3:25 pm

    “It’s time to shake up the team. Fire Wedge. DFA Ibanez, send down Smoak, Ackley and Beaven, bring up Triunfel, Franklin and Erasmo Ramirez.”

    First off Erasmo is still hurt, correct?

    Ackley is starting to hit so why do that? Smoak I am open to but lately even he’s hitting better (singles, yes, argh).

    I am all for releasing the veteran grit of Bay/Ibanez, calling up Triunfel and Hultzen.

  120. HighlightsAt11 on April 24th, 2013 3:26 pm

    The worst baseball is played in the corners… Miami, San Diego, Seattle.

    So who represents the northeast corner? It used to be the Mets.

  121. beadyeyes123 on April 24th, 2013 3:27 pm

    “Time to clean house…again. But flush the system all the way this time… ownership management, managers, player development personnel and players. Of course except for Felix and some prospects.”

    Nope, sorry. Time to fire the people making the decisions which means they also decide how we develop young players. As for what you want to do? Bad move. We’d be the Padres and nobody wants to do that.

    Figure out who stays for next year then take that Root Sports cash and find/trade for players that can help us for the foreseeable future.

  122. beadyeyes123 on April 24th, 2013 3:29 pm

    “Both McLaren and Bavasi were fired during the ’08 season, the same thing will probably happen to Zduriencik and Wedge this year. Who will complain?”

    Kingston is supposedly a saber-minded guy. Z listens to saber arguments but I am betting he’s always been a scout where it’s all about what we can see vs. what the numbers tell us.

    I’d be open to giving Jeff Kingston a promotion.

  123. beadyeyes123 on April 24th, 2013 3:31 pm

    “While I’m on board with firing both of them, I don’t think much would change with the current roster. The players are very much a part of the problem.”

    True but there have been many cases of talented yet underachieving players rising to the occasion with a new manager in charge. Time for Wedge to go.

  124. Dobbs on April 24th, 2013 3:34 pm

    Ah yes, the dream of having Felix, Fister and Morrow as your starting rotation…

    There were some decent moves with this team, but trading Morrow was an obvious mistake. Fister trade was…

    Well anyway, the Jaso for Morse trade sealed it.

  125. djw on April 24th, 2013 3:37 pm

    bring up Triunfel, Franklin and Erasmo Ramirez.

    Triunfel is terrible and Ramirez is injured. Sending Ackley down is silly. Let Franklin sustain his early success; rushing prospects in the early months of a lost season is a dumb idea.

  126. groundzero55 on April 24th, 2013 3:49 pm

    I can think of a lot worse moves than Morse for Jaso. Fister may have ended up a disaster in hindsight but at the time it looked like we were getting a haul of prospects for him. Morrow for League just smelled like Z wanting to be rid of some Bavasi legacy. Whatever, Morrow wasn’t exactly blowing the world away at the time. Hindsight is always 20/20.

    No, most of the failure of this season has to fall squarely on Wedge. He has made one boneheaded move after another, beginning in spring when he chose to carry Bay and Ibanez over Wells. His pinch-hitting misadventures just piled on as did his outfield defense choices. Ryan for Andino is just the latest moronic move.

  127. Dobbs on April 24th, 2013 3:59 pm

    Jaso was the last straw as I indicated, the worst part of the move was we could’ve easily kept Jaso and tossed Washington a low-level reliever for Morse.

    Fister might be hindsight 20/20, but I want a GM with a bit better foresight 20/20. No need to rush off a pitcher under team control doing great for prospects who aren’t even ML-ready.

    Morrow for League was just stupid and Dave called it for what it was at the time. Morrow was making almost nothing under control 4 more years while League was under control for 2 more. One a starter, the other a reliever.

    Wedge is pathetic, but Z hired him and has kept him around, so the rest falls on his shoulders anyway.

  128. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 4:15 pm

    I agree with djw…

    I don’t think the fix to a team that has failed by relying on its young players to get good as quickly as possible… is to get rid of guys to bring up more kids too early to fail as quickly as possible. What’s the definition of insanity again? Doing the same, expecting different results?

    An astute GM right now is making a big board of which prospects have the most “hype vs experience” and which of those guys can we afford to jettison, and who can we get for ‘em. (I think he attempted exactly this with the Taijun for Justin Upton package.)

    I think the right move is to send young guys down, to get some POSITIVE time on the field, and bring in better current MLB players, younger than the current crop (to replace Ryan, Ibanez, Bay, Andino, Guty, etc.)– and ALSO those same new guys need to be fellas that will stick around and be useful, for a year or two. And it’s gonna take trades– trading our strength (minor league starting pitching) for other team’s overstocked position players.

    In that scenario MORALES AND MORSE can be the new “veteran grittiness” and maybe actually contribute. And bringing in some guys who can actually PLAY and put up LEAGUE AVERAGE stats, would only increase the value of Morales and Morse who are obviously at this point probably going to be positioned to trade away come July (assuming their numbers would increase on a better roster).

    I’d still like to keep them, though– THEY should be the two who assume the Ibanez/Bay roles moving forward.

    There’s a reasonable move to make, squarely in the middle of “overreacting” and “underreacting”– and it would change the process they’ve been using (old guys and inexperienced guys, the method to date– turns to a single player type, semi-seasoned guys with experience, filling the majority of the lineup, with a couple young guys– Seager, Ackley & Saunders?– and Morales and Morse.

    Montero and Smoak are a problem as they currently exist. They need to go down, get better and be brought up, probably with an eye towards maximizing their exit from this team in a trade.

    I still wouldn’t mind a move to try to get Dee Gordon from the Dodgers… Bring up Franklin as the backup infielder.

    And we need a LF…

    Fairly easily we could somehow get to…

    DH Morse
    C Shoppach
    1B Morales
    2B Ackley
    SS Dee Gordon
    3B Seager
    LF (???- league average w/ a little pop/speed)
    CF M. Saunders
    RF Thames/Chavez

    Bench: Chavez/Franklin/Bay OR Ibanez (not both)/Smoak or Montero (not both)

  129. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 4:24 pm

    (I left out, maybe Guty could be a really good 4th OF/bench bat… Take the pressure off him to perform everyday, but STILL be able to use his talents in key/high leverage situations… Pinch hit for the offensive “scabs” Ryan, Andino, Ibanez, etc. with GUTY!?)

  130. Dobbs on April 24th, 2013 4:24 pm

    How does this sentence…

    “I don’t think the fix to a team that has failed by relying on its young players to get good as quickly as possible… is to get rid of guys to bring up more kids too early to fail as quickly as possible.”

    Somehow get written in the same line of thought as…

    “Bring up Franklin as the backup infielder.”

    It’s time to write the year off as Wells and Jaso would’ve provided league average play in LF/CF and DH/C, but we dumped them for nothing to the A’s. The time to prepare for this situation was months ago.

  131. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 4:30 pm

    Dobbs-
    Well, there’s a reality to moving tons of playes around between the majors and minors, yeah? Not enough room everywhere.

    I think you wanna keep the “rewarded for playing well” prize out there, especially in light of sending a bunch of guys down.

    AND if you’re sending people DOWN you have to make room in the minors for those guys too… Hence either Smoak or Montero probably not being sent down even if I think they BOTH need it.

    Not to mention, if you want both Ryan and Andino to go away, somebody probably has to come up who can backup that position… And Franklin is the position guy whose done the most to deserve a promotion in my eyes (insert anyone else– doens’t really matter, as long as it’s not Peguero or Triunfel).

    So to answer your question:

    That’s how.

    And the problem remains, whether we should have prepared months ago or not– what do we do NOW? If you’re Z and you’re trying to save your reputation you don’t “punt” 3/4′s of a season. The fans will, sure. But as the GM you still need to develop value to get rid of guys like Morales and Morse if you reach that point.

  132. Westside guy on April 24th, 2013 4:41 pm

    “Smoak … lately even he’s hitting better…”

    No he really isn’t. He’s done well offensively against the Astros over the last three games. That’s it. He sucked up to, and including, the previous series against Texas.

    We’ve seen him hit well against AAA pitching before – in 2012 it was a bunch of games against KC that happened to all be in proximity.

    It is a bad idea to draw conclusions based on a very small number of at bats. That’s probably a big part of what got this team into the mess it’s in right now, actually.

  133. jephdood on April 24th, 2013 4:45 pm

    For those whining about not even being able to beat the lowly Astros, realize that most other team’s fans say the exact same thing about us if we manage to take a series from them. Hasn’t come up so far this year, but..

  134. terry on April 24th, 2013 4:53 pm

    So why didn’t the Grande Z experiment work out and is there any hope that the next regime will experience the long term success that the last two failed to achieve?

  135. kfrei2 on April 24th, 2013 4:56 pm

    Is it possible to demote Z to a director of scouting position like what he held in Milwaukee?

    Only a hand full of his draft picks for the Ms have seen time in the majors (Ackley, Seager, Maurer, Pryor and Capps). I’m pretty happy with everyone on that list other than Ackley, and I still think it’s way too soon to give up on him. I think nearly all of us are excited about Cerberus and Zunino. I still feel pretty good about his drafting.

    The thing that makes me doubt Z the most (more than the Jaso, Fister or Morrow trades, more than carrying both Bay and Ibanez while cutting Wells) is the fact that Wedge has survived for so long. Wedge needs to be fired as badly as Bavasi needed to be fired. Why hasn’t Z done anything about Wedges inexcusable decision making yet?

  136. henryv on April 24th, 2013 5:13 pm

    Well, fuck. Smoak’s BABIP is back up, and he still isn’t getting hits.

    His line drive rate is now down, and his GB rate is back up.

    So, apparently it wasn’t his batting average and slugging wasn’t what would regress to the mean. Apparently it was his batted ball profile.

    Fucking super.

  137. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:19 pm

    Astros article on the series win:

    “…four of their seven wins this season have come against the Mariners…”

    Mariners return home 1-5 on our roadtrip… “outscored 36-8 in the five losses”… (math: avg of roughly 8-2 per loss)

    One things for certain– we are DEFINITELY past the mustard.

  138. henryv on April 24th, 2013 5:25 pm

    I am now to the point in the season where I start to ignore the trivial and boring baseball, and consider what intrateam fights I would like to see.

    I want to see Endy Chavez fight Robert Andino. I feel like this would lead to me wanting to watch the M’s on days where Felix doesn’t pitch.

    I would also like to see Carter Capps fight Mike Morse. I don’t know why, but this seems like it would be an even fight.

  139. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:30 pm

    “Haven’t won back to back games since the first two games of the season…”

    “Seattle hasn’t won a series yet this season…” (Wanna guess the only two series the Astros have won?)

    Did you hear that… The slow meandering steamboat bilge voice of Louis Armstrong in the background…

    “… and I think to myself… What a Wonderful World…”

    (tears)

  140. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:34 pm

    henryv-

    For me, it’s Robert Andino fight Justin Smoak… A spiteful mean ass fight ’cause Andino is fueled by… “Man, if I WAS THE ONE with the big tall strong dumb white boy body… I’d be one of the highest paid players in this league right now (jab, jab, uppercut)”…

    “If it was ME with those big ass gifts… (punch, jab, roundhouse)…”

    (of course this is all hitting Smoak about belly high)

  141. stevemotivateir on April 24th, 2013 5:34 pm

    Regarding Triunfel, he’s not playing terrible right now. He’s doing quite well. Replacing Ackley with him would be a bad idea. But replacing Andino with him? Why not?

    Carlos is one of the guys unlikely to have a future here and you could argue he’s blocking better players. He can’t play any worse than Andino, so again, why not give him a shot? It gives us an extended look at him and clears space in Tacoma.

    Unless you’re bent on seeing him stay in Tacoma to develop even further, or try to raise his stock through PCL achievements, I don’t see why anyone would be deathly opposed to seeing him replace Andino.

  142. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:36 pm

    What about Felix taking down Wedge with one punch when he tries to bring Beavan in to finish the 8th of a 1 run game…

    (Felix’s lip curled up… hat crooked… walking towards the dugout… rest of the guys clear out like a school of minnows when a Great White swims by…)

    “Ay Skip’… C’m here…”

  143. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:39 pm

    Steve
    (serious tone)

    I could see that… Makes a lot of sense, actually. Opens a spot in Tacoma without having to send somebody down to Jackson. Give him the backup slot in Seattle, ’cause he’s not taking bats from anybody in that position, really. Franklin would get more AB’s staying in Tacoma…

    And you’re right, with his future in doubt, give those AAA minutes to somebody moving up…

    Good perspective– I was looking downward when trying to make room, when moving the right “wrong” guy UP is a better call…

  144. scraps on April 24th, 2013 5:41 pm

    Dee Gordon, says Dave (at Fangraphs), is, and I quote from today’s chat, “bad”, full stop.

  145. stevemotivateir on April 24th, 2013 5:44 pm

    Yeah, that’s exactly what I was getting at. While I’m not as high on Franklin as many others seem to be, I don’t think he’s ready and I don’t wanna see him rushed. Don’t wanna see Romero or Miller rushed either. Or Zunino, or Walker, or Hultzen, etc. But Triunfel doesn’t really fall into that line of talent.

    Giving him a promotion, in my opinion, solves a few problems and gives him a fair shot at the same time.

    Having said that, I don’t actually expect them to do that.

  146. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:47 pm

    A little light reading from 2009… Cleveland fans are laughing at us right about now…

    The article is basically a “what the fuck” diatribe about Wedge bringing the worst reliever in Cleveland into a 1 run game against the Yankees, and he promptly gave up the lead…

    Makes me not feel so alone being a “WTF Wedge?” kinda guy way out here in Seattle…

    It’s sad but it’s sometimes reassuring to know that others have suffered like you have… Y’know like listening to Morrissey when you’re really depressed makes you think “okay, it could be worse– I could be THAT guy”…

    (Oh crap, just realized that’s what everyone in Houston is thinking right now… Staring at the Northwest…)

  147. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 5:49 pm

    Scraps-
    So he’d fit right in? Is that the take? *laugh*

    (Just trying to find ANYONE who can play MLB SS and hit over .160… I think I’m “desperate” is the word…)

  148. Dobbs on April 24th, 2013 5:54 pm

    So let’s make sure we develop our prospects, don’t rush them. But bring up Franklin to be a backup… because he’s 22 and hasn’t been in AAA more than 80 games.

    Got it.

  149. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 6:00 pm

    Plus, Scraps… It’s Julio Borban Dave said is “bad” (reading the trascript)…

    Dee Gordon is actually “Terrible” per Dave.

    So he’d be redundant, it sounds like.

  150. MrZDevotee on April 24th, 2013 6:02 pm

    Keep reading Dobbs… I just agreed with Steve that a better move might be just bring up Triunfel and let Franklin keep getting more/better at-bats in Tacoma. (Y’know, it’s sorta like having a conversation with someone, if you disagree or have a different opinion, engage them in different ideas?– sorry, you opened the snark door, not me.)

    It’s sort of a cesspool playing SS for the Mariners… So the least likely candidate maybe deserves it more? I agreed.

    (Nice snarky though… Very effective… Sarcasm has such a nice bouquet, when you roll it around on your tongue… mmmm….)

  151. scraps on April 24th, 2013 6:07 pm

    Whoops. Well, I quote, just incorrectly.

  152. nvn8vbryce on April 24th, 2013 6:13 pm

    Highlights, Pittsburgh represents the NE…

  153. Dobbs on April 24th, 2013 8:17 pm

    How about you put a little more thought into your posts and try to avoid contradicting yourself in the same post?

    Quality over quantity.

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