Game 77, Athletics at Mariners

marc w · June 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm · Filed Under Mariners 

Jeremy Bonderman vs. Jarrod Parker, 10 minutes ago (sorry)

Parker was brilliant in his rookie campaign, but he’s regressed quite a bit this season. Jeremy Bonderman’s BABIP’d into quite a run of late.

Line-up:
1: Chavez
2: Franklin
3: Seager
4: Ibanez (DH)
5: Gutierrez
6: Smoak
7: Zunino
8: Saunders (LF)
9: Ryan
SP: Bonderman

Comments

103 Responses to “Game 77, Athletics at Mariners”

  1. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 1:30 pm

    Wow. Not sure I can deal with a non-sucky outfield…

    Mariners need to win. Otherwise Wedge will say “See? Defense doesn’t matter.”

  2. Longgeorge1 on June 23rd, 2013 1:33 pm

    If Raul keeps stroking like he is defense don’t matter

  3. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 1:33 pm

    Raul’s HR run is just laughable anymore.

    He still makes too many outs; but it’s almost as if he hits a homer whenever he does get a hit! Two true outcomes…

  4. djw on June 23rd, 2013 1:44 pm

    If Raul keeps stroking like he is defense don’t matter

    What a strange thing to say about someone who’s offense and defense so far this season has produced….0.0 WAR.

  5. 9inningknowitall on June 23rd, 2013 1:45 pm

    I love this outfield. Even if they don’t get a hit the can still entertain with their defense.

  6. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 1:54 pm

    Saunders has been getting a little unlucky as of late. He’s hitting the ball hard opposite field and the defense has just been making good plays.

  7. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 1:59 pm

    The hits will start dropping if Saunders keeps it up.

    I don’t mind Raul in the DH slot so much. If we didn’t have fourteen other DHs, it wouldn’t be such a problem…

  8. Longgeorge1 on June 23rd, 2013 2:00 pm

    I don’t give a rip what the STATS say Raul has come up with more than he has taken. If the STATS say 0 WAR then just go refigure them. Between last night and today he is +2

  9. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 2:04 pm

    “I don’t give a rip what the STATS say Raul has come up with more than he has taken. If the STATS say 0 WAR then just go refigure them. Between last night and today he is +2″

    He didn’t win last night’s game single-handedly, and today’s game isn’t even over.

    You also have to look at the long stretch of time earlier when he was hitting .160, at all the balls he hasn’t gotten to, all the clanks he’s made in the outfield, and so on.

    That’s the whole point. You say he’s “come up with more than he has taken”, but by your own admission base it on basically nothing.

  10. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 2:07 pm

    Who’s got the energy to troll on a Sunday afternoon? Jeez. Go mow a lawn or something.

    Uh, Death to Flying Things is back?

  11. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 2:07 pm

    pleasedon’tbehurtpleasedon’tbehurtpleasedon’tbehurt

  12. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 2:07 pm

    This defense today is refreshing to watch.

  13. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 2:07 pm

    Guti does to Lowry what Cespedes did to Condor!

    Turnabout is fair play.

  14. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:08 pm

    “Medic”!!!

    Glad he’s back, though. Hope it lasts.

  15. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 2:09 pm

    Looking at the peripherals, one day Bonderman is going to absolutely implode. When that happens, hopefully Erasmo Ramirez gets the call.

  16. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 2:10 pm

    I mean, come on. If the A’s come back today and win 3-2, then by your reckoning suddenly Raul gets no credit for the homer?

    Individual offensive and defensive performances don’t happen in a vacuum.

  17. The_Waco_Kid on June 23rd, 2013 2:10 pm

    Gold Glove Guti! Good to have you, back.

  18. djw on June 23rd, 2013 2:12 pm

    Anyone who thinks hitting a home run in a close game should be worth 1 WAR has a terrible understanding of the game of baseball. There’s only 1 win to go around; you’re assigning all other players zero credit. As the saying used to go around here, “extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence”. I humbly request you either a) provide an explanation of your reasoning that Franklin, Gutierrez, Medina and everyone else deserve zero credit for yesterday’s win, or b) think for 10 seconds about the claims you make before you make them.

    Assuming that statistics should be ignored if they don’t confirm your prior beliefs requires a staggering amount of hubris.

  19. Westside guy on June 23rd, 2013 2:14 pm

    I hate to leave while the Mariners have the lead, but unfortunately we’ve got plans.

    GO MARINERS!

  20. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:19 pm

    Long on George. Short on specifics.

    Maybe he just had a bad moment. I don’t recall him making that type of comment previously or being “trollish.”

    Perhaps he is working on his explanation.

  21. PackBob on June 23rd, 2013 2:19 pm

    Raul’s not good a defense, so his defense takes away from his offensive output. But just how much it takes away is still a slippery slope of assessment. UZR is imperfect and sample size is a big issue. Accoridng to UZR, Guti is not a good defender this year. And I would say, although I’m resistant to the idea that it makes much difference in outcome, that Raul has been an inspiration to the team so far.

  22. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 2:23 pm

    Raul’s reading the blog while in the dugout again.

    Eat me, Stathead Boys!

  23. ivan on June 23rd, 2013 2:23 pm

    OMG he’s on the juice! JUST KIDDING!

  24. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 2:24 pm

    OK, so, we’ll send Raul to the All-Star Game then…

  25. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:24 pm

    The Mariners have their own version of Ponce De’ Leon

    I guess that would be “3″ wins, now.

  26. G-Man on June 23rd, 2013 2:25 pm

    Jeez, Louise.

    Now I fear that the Griffey Jr. story will repeat. Great season, team resigns him, he flops. But maybe we WANT Raul to get the manager fired.

  27. The_Waco_Kid on June 23rd, 2013 2:25 pm

    Amazing power from Raul. Really enjoying watching him. Like 09 Griffey. We should sign him to a non-extension right now.

  28. Woodcutta on June 23rd, 2013 2:31 pm

    Unfortunately, Raul’s power surge probably means he will be re-signed instead of traded. Another year of watching Raul in the outfield means another sub .500 year from the M’s.

  29. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 2:33 pm

    I know a lot of casual fans would love to have Raul back next season. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind bringing him back on a cheap deal to DH for us next season, because he’s simply not playable in the field. He does have a wRC+ of 126 this season.

  30. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:34 pm

    I feel like Saunders is going to hit a bomb in this next at bat. It’s time. Right Center Field.

  31. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 2:34 pm

    Cut to Jack Z on the phone with his forehead in his hand.

    “Yes, Howard and Chuck, I DO see what Raul is doing…but no, I still don’t think we need to sign Jamie Moyer…”

  32. djw on June 23rd, 2013 2:37 pm

    But just how much it takes away is still a slippery slope of assessment. UZR is imperfect and sample size is a big issue.

    Agreed. However, I can’t think of any reason to assume it’s more likely UZR is giving Ibanez too little credit for his defensive contributions than it is giving him too much. The error bars work both ways. Maybe his defense isn’t that bad, and he’s actually been solidly in the positive, say, .5-1 WAR. But it’s equally possible his defense has been even worse, and he’s below replacement level. So if this is an argument for some uncertainty, I accept it, but that can’t be translated into an argument about Ibanez likely having positive value.

    (I suppose I concede that his defensive negatives are showing as historical and epic in his awfulness as reason to think the numbers are more likely to be skewed negative right now. But a) he’s 41, and b) he’s just looked terrible this year; it seems like a runner takes a base on his arm once a game or so, so I’m not sure how much stock I’d put on that.)

  33. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 2:37 pm

    And Woodcutta, Raul or no Raul, 2014 will be another sub .500 year for the M’s.

    And that’s actually the best anecdotal way that his 0 WAR stat can be expressed. Raul just doesn’t matter enough to change the course of this team, whether he’s here or not here.

    He is my wife’s favorite player, though…so, the Greyy house is happier with him around and DINGERS!

  34. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:37 pm

    Prediction fail.

  35. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 2:39 pm

    I was just about to say, msfan. Surprised the commentators didn’t say something about a productive out though.

  36. djw on June 23rd, 2013 2:40 pm

    Honestly, I wouldn’t mind bringing him back on a cheap deal to DH for us next season

    I’m going to charitably assume Will Lofton was in a coma for Ken Griffey Jr.’s 2010 season.

  37. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 2:41 pm

    I wish we had more WRC+ 126 players. That’s a real good number. Gotta keep him out of the field, though.

  38. Woodcutta on June 23rd, 2013 2:43 pm

    pgreyy,

    Raul may have a 0 WAR but that doesn’t mean his presence or lack thereof doesn’t effect the course of the team. The shear fact that he is taking up valuable playing time and a roster spot can easily hurt the M’s. Replacing him with anyone that is 1.0+ WAR will change the outcome of games and thus a season.

  39. djw on June 23rd, 2013 2:49 pm

    Woodcutta,

    absolutely. I can’t fathom why people think it makes sense to write of 2014 now. Nor can I fathom why people think if a team is doing the big things wrong, it doesn’t matter if they do the little things wrong, too. Good teams do both, and mediocre teams get lucky, all the time. If the youth core develops and there’s a decent acquisition or two in the off-season, it’s very easy to see this team competing next year (this isn’t likely, of course, but it’s well within the range of plausible outcomes). When I see people saying “F*ck it, let’s sign a 42 year old who hasn’t provided positive value over the last 4 years and can’t play the field because casual fans know his name already” I don’t know how to make sense of it.

  40. The_Waco_Kid on June 23rd, 2013 2:53 pm

    Will, that reminds me too much of Griffey 2010. I was stoked to have Griffey back as a 25th man/PH/spot starter, but he was playing regularly, even vs. lefties. I’d love to have Raul as a coach, if he doesn’t go into broadcasting.

  41. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 2:54 pm

    Meanwhile, back at the game…OH SHIT.

  42. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 2:58 pm

    Watch me write off 2014.

    We have little talent we can count on.
    We have few prospects to trade.
    We are likely to be replacing GM/Manager.
    –If we don’t replace GM/Manager, we continue with lame duck policies. If we do replace them, we blow up the team and begin rebuilding under a different plan.
    There’s not a single player or even combination of two or three players that can solve this team’s problems.

    …even if we threw money at the problems.

    I think we’re 3-5 years away from…anything.

    So, if Raul is back next year or if Morse/Montero/Smoak/Morales/whoever gets those at bats…the fact that we don’t have a starting rotation, we don’t have a stable bullpen, we don’t have speed, we don’t have defense, we don’t really have power, we don’t have depth–honestly, how many of these holes can be fixed over the course of one off-season?

    Honestly, I would LOVE it if Raul Ibanez was this team’s most pressing concern.

  43. currcoug on June 23rd, 2013 2:58 pm

    Well Steve, he might not have won the game by himself last night (and most of us know it is a team sport)…but it is pretty clear that without Raul, the M’s lose that game. Same thing today.

    As for the “long stretch of time”, yes, he sucked in April…but he put up a 1.031 OPS in May, and a solid .754 OPS in June. Finally, Raul has a 1.017 OPS with RISP. Clearly, you continue to undervalue his importance to the club…although I agree that he should be at DH.

    BTW, Justin Upton has pretty much sucked after his hot start (.654 OPS in May, .574 OPS in June)….now that qualifies as a “long stretch of time”.

    We could also discuss guys like Hamilton…and I would say Raul is a damn good value at $2.75 million.

  44. Woodcutta on June 23rd, 2013 3:02 pm

    Gotta love Wedge’s gritty managerial style. Bonderman gives up two lead off hits. Cespedes is up with no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd yet no one is warming up in the bullpen.

  45. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 3:04 pm

    Franklin prevented the A’s from having a bigger inning. That was a real nice play – for the second out. Good range. Good arm.

  46. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 3:05 pm

    And meanwhile, Raul’s extra home run is the difference. HAH!

  47. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 3:05 pm

    No kidding, Woodcutta.

    It’s both a “he’s a gritty veteran, he’ll get the job done” confidence AND a “I don’t want to undercut his confidence by letting him think that I doubt him” insecurity.

    (Or, he’s given up. Or he doesn’t have a clue.)

    In the long run, I guess it doesn’t matter “why”…

  48. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 3:10 pm

    ARGH, Guti’s out with injury.

  49. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 3:12 pm

    Beginning to think Gutierrez is kind of a wimp. Come on…

  50. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 3:12 pm

    We now have a fixed value on Eric Thames.

    1.5 Guti games.

  51. juneau_fan on June 23rd, 2013 3:14 pm

    Time to mow my lawn; heard the magic words, Bartender warming up.

  52. Woodcutta on June 23rd, 2013 3:24 pm

    pgreyy,

    If the M’s would have signed Bourn and Swisher this entire season would have been different. The signing of Swisher would have meant no trading Jaso for Morse. With Bourn in CF, Guti/Saunders in RF, and Saunders/Swisher in LF, the M’s would actually have reliable defense in the outfield. Having Bourn leadoff would have taken some of the pressure off of Ackley and who knows how his season would have been to this point. A lineup consisting of the following players is an instant upgrade both offensively and defensively to what we currently have. Also, this roster would allow Zunino to continue his development in AAA.

    Bourn
    Franklin
    Morales
    Ibanez/Bay
    Swisher
    Seager
    Jaso/Shoppach
    Guti/Saunders
    Ryan

    Quick turnarounds are possible in baseball if the FO is actually competent. Raul, at this stage in his career, should be platooning at DH and be used as a pinch hitter as he was with the Yankees. The failure of the M’s FO to realize that is just another of a long list of poor decisions/mismanagment that should lead to their ouster.

  53. Monty on June 23rd, 2013 3:24 pm

    Carlos Guillen was always up and down, too. Is Guti is the new “Glass”?

  54. ivan on June 23rd, 2013 3:29 pm

    Where is your evidence that either Bourn or Swisher wanted to play here at any price?

  55. Will Lofton on June 23rd, 2013 3:30 pm

    Just sifting through FanGraphs and came across Adrian Beltre. Never knew that he had a 9.7 WAR season for the Dodgers in 2004. That’s incredible – how did we get him for so cheap?

    Would love to have him around here to this day. You could always pencil him in for a +3 WAR season and now he’s raking for the Rangers.

  56. currcoug on June 23rd, 2013 3:30 pm

    Woodcutta,

    If we had signed Bourn, we couldn’t have drafted D.J. Peterson.

    I like Bourn, but I would rather have Peterson.

  57. msfanmike on June 23rd, 2013 3:30 pm

    Dammit Saunders, get the job done.

  58. sawsatch on June 23rd, 2013 3:40 pm

    Assuming the Morales and Morse aren’t back, then Raul as DH, sometimes at 1B is not that bad. Remember also that with Raul on the roster, the team needs only to carry 2 catchers. Raul can fill in in a late inning situation. (a la interleague play)

  59. jeffs98119 on June 23rd, 2013 3:42 pm

    The problem, Woodcutta, is that John Jaso does not have the grit it takes to be a catcher for Eric Wedge. Jaso was never going to be M’s catcher–don’t forget, Wedge preferred Olivo to Jaso. OBP-be-damned, give me guts-and-grit any day!

  60. currcoug on June 23rd, 2013 3:45 pm

    I confess to being relieved that Perez is coming in, instead of Tom, pardon the pun.

  61. currcoug on June 23rd, 2013 3:45 pm

    I confess to being relieved that Perez is coming in, instead of Tom, pardon the pun.

  62. Woodcutta on June 23rd, 2013 3:46 pm

    I don’t understand this love for Peterson. Hey may develop into a good hitter but he won’t be anywhere near good enough to justify not trying to make this team better now. If he was Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Manny Machado, or even Byron Buxton I could understand.

    I don’t have evidence that Bourn or Swisher would have signed with the M’s but they were on the market a long time and at times didn’t have the multi-year offers they were looking for. After Span was traded to the Nationals and Upton was traded to the Braves, the market for Bourn dried up even though there were teams (like the M’s) that needed a player of his caliber. Also, they both did hold out for more money/years so if the M’s had offered more than Cleveland they should have had at least as good a shot of signing them as Cleveland had if not more

  63. djw on June 23rd, 2013 3:49 pm

    Remember also that with Raul on the roster, the team needs only to carry 2 catchers.

    ???

    Virtually all teams always only needs to carry only two catchers. Do you really think that if Ibanez’ roster spot goes to someone else, the Mariners will waste a roster spot on a third catcher? Why?

  64. currcoug on June 23rd, 2013 3:52 pm

    Woodcutta,

    You may change your mind in a year or two about Bourn vs. D.J. Peterson.

    Did you see Peterson’s monstrous shot last night? He made “light tower power” look easy. It was impressive.

  65. The_Waco_Kid on June 23rd, 2013 3:55 pm

    Zero offense from Franklin, Seager, Smoak, Saunders, or Ryan so far.

  66. djw on June 23rd, 2013 4:22 pm

    Great time for Saunders to finally catch a break….

  67. ivan on June 23rd, 2013 4:27 pm

    All I could think was KENDRYS! DON’T JUMP ON THE PLATE!

  68. pgreyy on June 23rd, 2013 4:27 pm

    “This team is so close to the tipping point” says Angie Mentink.

    Which way?

    (Oh, and BTW…YAY M’s! I’m not too cynical to still cheer and hope.)

  69. stevemotivateir on June 23rd, 2013 4:42 pm

    Where is your evidence that either Bourn or Swisher wanted to play here at any price?

    Where’s the evidence that they wouldn’t have? You obviously missed the piece Drayer put out in which Swisher addressed his interest in Seattle.

    The fact that they both signed with Cleveland, a team further away from contention and with a weaker farm, for very reasonable salaries, speaks volumes.

  70. The_Waco_Kid on June 23rd, 2013 5:10 pm

    Pgreyy, ROOT doesn’t consider its job sports journalism, but rather sports marketing. Their job is to make people want to watch, so the team will remain on the brink of contention until they are mathemetically eliminated.

  71. HighlightsAt11 on June 23rd, 2013 5:16 pm

    Waco, Are you stating anything Drayer posts on her blog or states otherwise is just marketing hype produced under the auspices of ROOT (and the Mariners front office)? Didn’t know Drayer was so owned.

  72. ivan on June 23rd, 2013 5:40 pm

    “The fact that they both signed with Cleveland, a team further away from contention and with a weaker farm, for very reasonable salaries, speaks volumes.”

    Swisher was born in Ohio, played at Ohio State, and has been friends with Terry Francona since he was a kid, when Nick’s father, Steve Swisher, managed Francona in the minors. What does that speak?

  73. sawsatch on June 23rd, 2013 6:41 pm

    Like I said: Melvin is not la Russa.

  74. MrZDevotee on June 23rd, 2013 6:59 pm

    sawsatch-
    You’re right.. LaRussa had way better talent to work with than Melvin…

    But their results have been pretty similar.

  75. sawsatch on June 23rd, 2013 7:36 pm

    Clarification: Yes most teams carry only 2 catchers but often have a back up sitting in triple A in case of injury. Having a third player who can fill in for an inning can be useful when playing in NL parks. I agree it probably won’t be needed: it’s just a small plus to Raul’s resume.

  76. sawsatch on June 23rd, 2013 7:37 pm

    Do you really think most managers would have pitched to Morales?

  77. djw on June 23rd, 2013 7:59 pm

    Yes most teams carry only 2 catchers but often have a back up sitting in triple A in case of injury. Having a third player who can fill in for an inning can be useful when playing in NL parks. I agree it probably won’t be needed: it’s just a small plus to Raul’s resume.

    This is absurd. Obviously, having a credible fill in catcher in AAA is sensible roster construction, whether or not Ibanez is on the roster. Ibanez has been active for the roster for well over a hundred interleague play games in his career; his use as a catcher has been limited to….4 innings in 1999. The notion that he’s a “catcher” in some meaningful way, after 15+ years of getting old while never, ever playing position. relative to some random player on the bench, isn’t a remotely credible theory.

  78. evolvingcaveman on June 23rd, 2013 8:13 pm

    I love all the new stats but if you can’t agree that Ibanez has been one of our better hitters on a Mariners team that needed hitters you’ve lost your credibility. His defense sucks and no I don’t care one way or the other about him being on next years team. I want wins and expect JackZ to be better at producing them then us so I’ll leave that up to him.

  79. MrZDevotee on June 23rd, 2013 8:21 pm

    In Tony LaRussa’s first 10 years (how long Melvin has been managing) he finished first once, never higher than 3rd the other 9 years. Lost his only playoff appearance.

    Melvin has averaged a 2nd place finish in his first 10 years, has won his division 3 times (two different teams) 2nd in 3 of the other years… And has been to the playoffs twice already (likely 3 times w/ this season, his 10th).

    He has also been Manager of the Year twice (once in each league).

    I like LaRussa, but “he’s no Tony LaRussa” is just sort of random in my mind, and out of left field. And you felt the need to mention it more than once… But, Melvin seems to get pretty good results, with arguably MUCH more meager rosters (in both Arizona and Oakland, vs LaRussa’s Oakland and St.Louis days).

    Maybe it’s just me. But, I don’t like dissing on the manager of the team leading my division, and who won it last year (when nobody gave him a chance), and say those disses as if he doesn’t know what he’s doing, WHEN… my team can’t compete with his record, and has Eric Wedge doing its managing.

    He deserves respect, in my opinion, not “he’s no LaRussa”…

  80. sawsatch on June 23rd, 2013 8:34 pm

    Too nasty for me guys. I’m off the site.

  81. gopilots70 on June 23rd, 2013 8:54 pm

    Wow. Now we are bringing Shannon Drayer into the discussion. I thought this was an evidence site not a fluff piece. I love Shannon’s articles especially the piece where she claimed to teach Felix how to speak English and last week”s piece where she saw that Seager was the “rookiest rookie” that she had ever seen and then after being sent down she was amazed at how much he had changed in 12 days. She uses the word “I” more than any reporter or blogger I have ever seen. Did any of these people even pretend to study journalism?

    And while we are at it, nothing could be fluffier and phonier than anything Nick Swisher says to the “media”.

    And speaking of bad, façade “reporting”. Yesterday Angie Mencik (sp) was checking her iphone while giving a “update” on a game that had finished more than three hours earlier. Please stop with the appeal to the “20 somethings”. They just like baseball too.

  82. djw on June 23rd, 2013 9:03 pm

    I love all the new stats but if you can’t agree that Ibanez has been one of our better hitters on a Mariners team that needed hitters you’ve lost your credibility.

    “One of our better hitters” is an extremely vague claim, and not one that I or anyone else has denied in this discussion. If you don’t count players with limited ABs, he’s in a three way tie for second, behind Seager and with Morse and Morales. On a per AB basis, Gutierrez and Franklin have also been better. Regardless, the argument isn’t about the quality of his offense but his overall value for the team, which is extremely low.

    Also, obviously, I care more about the future than the past. Morales, for example, is likely to continue to perform at that level, because doing so would not require him to sustain a highly improbable career high in HR/FB%.

  83. gopilots70 on June 23rd, 2013 9:20 pm

    I began reading my beloved USS Mariner in the final days of Raul’s second stint with the M’s. I could not believe how critical Dave and Derek were of his value to the team. As I was new, they both pointed out to me some of nuances such as the value of defense and OBP. I became very interested in all these intelligent and fluent guys who have not played baseball since age 9.

    I slowly became convinced that there was something to all this and many of the early decisions of the Jack Z era began to reinforce this I well as the success of many teams whose players demonstrate value offensively and defensively.

    But this year, the offensive contributions of Raul coupled with his defensive ineptitude and the pathetic offense of Ryan combined with “good” (?) but at times erratic defense have made me question again.

    I think that Raul has been very valuable to this team despite his 0.0 WAR. And this year, and last year for that matter, Ryan’s defensive contributions to the team are highly over-valued.

    Maybe it is just luck that so many of Raul’s homers have come in crucial situations. And bad luck that so many of Ryan’s errors and failed bunt attempts have led to losses.

    Are these just outliers are is there a need to question some of these assumptions?

  84. evolvingcaveman on June 23rd, 2013 10:03 pm

    Ibanez value to the team is extremely low?

    First off I have to admit I felt 2.75million was too much to hand Raul but I just can’t agree with your assesment.To our chagrin he has been solid in the clubhouse, popular with fans, hated by bloggers and terrible as always on defense.
    He also has 17hr’s before midseason while leading the team in rbi and been clutch time and time again for us ala Jaso 2012. If we gave out an MVP at the moment wouldn’t he be close to the top?

    I love the Ibanez vs Ryan arguement/comparison I want it up as a poll with comments.

  85. MrZDevotee on June 23rd, 2013 10:45 pm

    Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever been called “too nasty” before.

    Sorry Sawsatch, I was just disagreeing with you. Not trying to be mean. No reason to leave– EVERYONE disagrees with me, so you’re in good company there.

    (I feel bad.)

  86. bongo on June 23rd, 2013 11:12 pm

    Right now, the quickest thing they could do to improve the club would be to make some moves on the pitching staff. For example, send down D. Farquar and Carter Capps and bring up Brian Moran and Erasmo Ramirez. And no, don’t expect them to DFA Bonderman until *after* he implodes.

  87. djw on June 23rd, 2013 11:48 pm

    Why on earth would you recommend sending Farquar to the minors? He’s fantastic. Learn to look beyond ERA.

  88. The Wheelhouse on June 23rd, 2013 11:57 pm

    I am enjoying Ibanez’s offensive explosions. They just make the game fun.

    I feel like all of the negative talk about his defense is getting really old. He is not a terrible fielder. Is he the best? No, but at least he makes the routine plays and gets the job done.

    Why do people talk about WAR like it’s the perfect measurement of a player’s effectiveness? It’s not. It’s a good tool and that’s all it is. For goodness sake, one of the great things about baseball is that you are liable to see something you have never seen before from someone you least expect to do it. Sometimes this baseball theology can eat away at that childlike faith you had when you first fell in love with the game.

    Just go outside and throw a ball around, take some BP, shag some fly balls on a green fresh cut field. Get back to to where it all began. We get to watch baseball. Sometimes not well played baseball, but it’s baseball damn it, and it’s good.

  89. Westside guy on June 24th, 2013 12:06 am

    “I feel like all of the negative talk about his defense is getting really old. He is not a terrible fielder.”

    Yes, he really IS a terrible fielder. Even ignoring any stats – have you seen the number of balls he doesn’t get to, the bad routes to the ball he takes, the number of times his feet have come out from under him on fairly routine plays?

    He is absolutely terrible in the field.

  90. djw on June 24th, 2013 12:19 am

    I don’t understand how anyone with eyeballs can deny Ibanez’s fielding awfulness. I really, really don’t need advanced or complicated statistics to see runners take bases they have no business taking on his “arm”, even when he doesn’t botch a route or let a catchable ball fall in for a double.

    The notion that evidence-based analytic approaches to understanding the value of baseball players is somehow in tension with a love of the game has never made any sense to me. “The Wheelhouse”, like most people who make some version of that bizarre claim, hasn’t offered anything approaching a reason or argument for it. But seriously: if exposure to analytic approaches to the game make it harder for you to enjoy it, I can’t imagine why you’d bother arguing about anything on a site like this. Seems like an counterproductive choice.

  91. Westside guy on June 24th, 2013 7:44 am

    On another topic…

    Has anyone heard whether Guti is DL-bound again?

  92. msfanmike on June 24th, 2013 8:17 am

    Is that a rhetorical question, Westy?

    Of course he is DL-bound again. He is Franklin Gutierrez.

    In regard to this particular round of hammy-tightness, I heard (last night) that they will see how he feels in a couple days … with today being an off-day.

    Pete mentioned it above, but Thames value may have actually boiled down to 1.5 Guti games and nothing more. And that would be a bit of a shame.

  93. BillyJive on June 24th, 2013 8:19 am

    The Raul bashing on this site is getting old. The problem isn’t Raul it’s the way the Mariners are using him. He should be a bench bat and occasional DH.
    The guy is 41 years old..in fantastic shape and has mashed 17 HR’s for us already. Boo Fricken Hoo…there’s plenty of other stuff to whine about.

  94. spuuky on June 24th, 2013 9:00 am

    No one is “bashing” Raul personally. Yes, he’s a terrible fielder, and no, pointing that out isn’t “bashing” him. It’s pointing out that he is being paid by the team to do something he isn’t good at, which actively makes the team worse than if they were not paying him to do that. Nothing at all to do with his home runs, personality, or anything else. And yes, it is a complaint about the front office/manager, not a complaint about the man himself.

  95. The Wheelhouse on June 24th, 2013 9:26 am

    Yikes. I like looking at and pouring through stats. I watch the games and I play the game. I’m not trying to attack anyone.

    I do have eyes. I’m not trying to suggest that Raul’s fielding is great. I guess we just have different opinions on his varying lack of effectivness. Not to the degree that someone should imply a physical or mental impairment.

    @Djw- I think when suggesting that a claim is bizzare and saying that there is no evidence presented to support it is silly. Especially, when evidence for the inverse of that said “bizarre notion” is not presented.

    I wasn’t suggesting that the of the love game is in question when someone is in to satistical analysis. In fact, it displays a deep love of the game. I’m just saying that it has the potential of staving off the hope of the impropable to the impossible by writing it off before it happens because there’s stats to back it up. We know the stats. Stats are great. They make me all giddy when I sift through them.

    I hate bring Raul into this again, bit here’s my example. Raul two home runs to help the Mariners win a game in a season that is satistically lost before the All-Star Break. We know this. We know that the way Raul is being used you can tell that overall this season his play has had a negative or neutral at best affect on the team. Instead, of being excited about the two bombs he hit to help win the game we talk about his overall negative value during the season. We all know this. If something changes we can bring it up. For a moment, can we have some fun, and not worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow, has enough troubles as it is.

  96. Westside guy on June 24th, 2013 9:36 am

    I suspect most people here would agree that the fundamental “Raul” issue is, in one way or another, the way he is being used. And I think some of the frustration is due to the current opinion many of us have of this front office – we expect them to turn around and sign him to a 10-year contract, or something equally silly.

    Speaking personally, my frustration is definitely about how he’s being used, combined with the fact that they chose to construct the roster in a way that pretty much dictated this was going to happen. I suppose that, given that, I should be happy he’s mashing at an absurd rate – but then see the last thing I said at the end of my previous paragraph. :-D

    Anyway, I do think those of you who are basically saying our frustrations are misplaced are not far off the truth, even if I don’t think it’s the entirety of it.

  97. eponymous coward on June 24th, 2013 11:10 am

    Boo Fricken Hoo…there’s plenty of other stuff to whine about.

    Such as why the Mariners put together a shoddy roster that necessitates using a 41 year old DH primarily as a LF.

    Seriously- depending on a bunch of guys with histories of injury problems (Guti, Morse, Smoak, Bay)? Really, really dumb.

    Go M’s.

    For a moment, can we have some fun, and not worry about tomorrow.

    And yeah, sure we can. Paciorek hit homers that buried the Yankees back in the 1980′s, too, while THOSE teams were being mismanaged.

    Apparently the M’s, having not learned from the past, are condemned to repeat it- and we’ll have to settle for the 60-70 or so good games we’ll see out of 162, instead of a well put together team.

  98. MrZDevotee on June 24th, 2013 11:41 am

    Truths we can all agree on:

    >>Raul Ibanez seems like a fine fellow

    >>Dingers are fun, in and of themselves
    (Raul is on pace to break the all-time record for Dingers by a 41 year old, held by Ted Williams at 29)

    >>Ibanez should get an electric dog collar and anytime he goes near the outfield, he gets a hefty jolt that tells him “NO! Bad Raul…” (Morse should probably get one too)

    >>We’ve won some games because of the timeliness of Raul’s bat… No doubt… BUT!!! That’s not his only value (plus or minus) and it’s more difficult to quantify what he has cost us in the outfield, versus having a hypothetical different player in the lineup in his place… Which would have an impact all the way down to pushing Smoak out of the lineup earlier in the season on some days, so that Kendrys can play 1B, and Raul can DH. And it’s safe to assume team speed would increase by removing Smoak and adding a real LF. What would that impact have had on the result of games…? Mathy-ness can guess, but we’ll never actually know. Although I would hope everyone involved presumes that it’s a NEGATIVE number.

  99. currcoug on June 24th, 2013 12:00 pm

    Raul’s age is somewhat irrelevant, as long he produces with the bat…and he has (May-June).

    It is indeed ironic that the “geezer” has stayed healthy…while the “whipper snappers” continue to hit the DL (Guti, Smoak, Montero, Pryor, Morse, Sucre, Morales, etc.).

  100. mossi on June 24th, 2013 4:10 pm

    Ibanez is just taking what their giving. Luckily for him, (and for anyone watching the M’s “offense”), his boss’s don’t really have any vision or inclination to field a truly competitive team (nor a team with any depth), so he he plays. Blame(and credit, in a sense, for signing him for ’13), should be directed at ownership and management. It is a simple reflection on this organization’s absentee ownership and its “management” team that he has stepped up and thrilled mariner fans with late inning clutch hits. The original plan for him to be a part-timer/pinch hitter would have made sense if guys like Saunders,Wells,and Guti (3 dismal failures in different ways), had offered anything, but to have planned on that happening was foolish. Instead it’s Chavez, Bay and Raul claiming jobs. Oh well. It’s not like the organization had any better outfield prospects. Is that Raul’s fault? Pointing out Ibanez’ defensive short comings is a fine past-time but i’d much rather point the blame where it belongs. And i do that by not buying tickets or cable station games. Sad perhaps, but much more productive than pointing blame at one of the only players on the team that is consistently hitting.

  101. r-gordon-7 on June 24th, 2013 5:33 pm

    >>Ibanez should get an electric dog collar and anytime he goes near the outfield, he gets a hefty jolt that tells him “NO! Bad Raul…” (Morse should probably get one too)

    The collar idea is fine, except that the hefty electric jolt needs to go to HowChuckZWedge, not Raul…

  102. pgreyy on June 24th, 2013 7:35 pm

    I don’t think there is anyone here who is “pointing the blame” at Raul Ibanez.

    Yes, it’s nice when he hits dingers. He’s not the worst Mariners hitter, to be sure…but he’s not Miguel Cabrera, either.

    He’s not the best defensive outfielder, but at least he’s able-bodied…which is more than you can say for Guti, Bay, Morse or Morales. (And I’ve seen Morse, when healthy, try to play in the outfield…and at worst, Raul vs Morse is a push.)

    He’s 41 years old and as long as he is healthy…he has a place on a MLB roster. I don’t blame him for continuing to play to the utmost of his ability. I don’t think that Raul is the reason the M’s are bed–but neither do I think Raul is reason enough to hope that we’re secretly good.

    The fact that Raul HAS to play the outfield (or, better spoken, is our best option to do so) is indicative of the M’s problems…and they’re the same problems that we all knew the M’s would have going into the season. We have a poorly constructive and less-than-competitive roster with precious little depth anywhere.

    To be respectable this year, we needed everything to go right. The fact that we’re seeing Raul regularly playing in the outfield is a sign that everything did not go right.

    Raul, himself, is not the problem. If he plays here again next year–won’t make us significantly better and, depending on his salary and other options available to the team, probably won’t make us significantly worse.

    I have no problem joining my wife in being happy when Raul = Dingers! (Just as long as she doesn’t have a problem with me covering my eyes whenever a fly ball is hit in his direction.)

    We ALL know that Raul is not, personally, the problem…but he’s not any sort of a solution to any of our problems, either…

  103. BillyJive on June 25th, 2013 9:10 am

    “Such as why the Mariners put together a shoddy roster that necessitates using a 41 year old DH primarily as a LF.

    Seriously- depending on a bunch of guys with histories of injury problems (Guti, Morse, Smoak, Bay)? Really, really dumb.”

    Exactly my point. Why is everyone so focused on Raul…signing him as a part time bench bat/DH wasn’t really a bad move except they already had a bunch of other DH’s that shouldn’t be full time position players already. It’s been mentioned enough times here…the problem is the way this team was constructed….not Raul himself.

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