Lopez, Betancourt are huge problems
I’ve been trying to dodge writing this all season, hoping at some point that things would turn around.
Here’s my pre-season post-o-rama:
Lopez. If putting him at #2 makes him a more selective hitter and helps him get his career back on track, I’m all for it. We’ve seen the Lopez that’s full of potential and was on a track to become a key part of a young Mariner middle-infield tandem that would help the team field competitive teams for years to come, and we’ve seen a wince-inducing Lopez that makes us wonder why the team ever invested in him. I want to think that last season’s swoon was due to off-field problems as much as anything. I have to admit that I wonder if Lopez is just going to end up being another young player who stalled. And then maybe two years after everyone’s cut bait on him he’ll put up an All-Star season playing for some awful .400 team that invited him to spring training on a lark. Baseball’s a weird game. And as much as I resist making any kind of personal judgments of players, I’ll say this: I think Lopez is a smart guy, and knows all that. The question may be whether or not he wants to work that hard now, and what he decides he wants to do with his career, more than whether or not he has the talent.
I’ve been a Lopez booster for a long, long time, even though there was a point it seemed like I was down on him because I thought he’d be good and not a superstar, and popular sentiment was a lot more optimistic.
We got an offensive rebound of sorts, where he’s hitting for average, not getting hiw walks, and not hitting for good power either. Still, among second basemen, that’s above average, and if he was playing reasonable defense, he’d be a net plus for the team.
He’s not, though. I was poking around while thinking about writing a piece on why the M’s, having improved their overall outfield defense, haven’t done a significantly better job at getting outs, and — there’s no writing about this team’s defense without confronting the two terrible defenders up the middle.
Lopez is slow, plus his reactions haven’t been great, and once in a while we get treated to seeing a ball go right through his legs, or off his noggin, waking him from a nap, and so on. I’ve been a little glad that we don’t get the best defensive stats until after the season, because I held out hope that he’d get better. But even the traditional, not-much-good stats, like fielding percentage… not good. Zone rating, terrible. And I mention that not as evidence but — I glimpsed these things, and they backed up everyone’s observation that his defense was way, way off, and I wanted to wait longer.
Too late. Replacement Level Yankees blog took a swing at ranking second basemen based on total contribution and Lopez tied for last. The metrics aren’t the greatest, but there’s one thing we need to confront: Lopez may well be the worst defensive second baseman in the league right now. It’s not just Sexson that’s killing the ground ball defense — it’s Sexson, Lopez, and Betancourt.
I don’t know what’s happened, I don’t have a handy explanation for why Lopez’s range is this far off, though the obvious suspect is ill conditioning (however you want to interpret that) or some kind of hamstring injury we just haven’t heard about yet.
And since I’ve brought it up — Betancourt is almost exactly the same problem. He’s horrible out there. He’s not making plays. His range is gone. Imagine when he first came up, how often he’d get behind second or third even just backing plays up. I was surprised at least once a game to notice how far he’d gone. And now, just like Lopez, he barely moves. It’s Beltre ranging way in and to his left to field slow grounders in front of Betancourt, and up the middle – it’s a free hit if it gets past the pitcher.
Unlike Lopez, he’s not even average for his position offensively. We knew we’d seen the best of Betancourt before — hitters who beat the ball into the ground don’t have a lot of room to evolve, and Betancourt’s skill set hasn’t changed at all. But this, this hollow-and-low average with a sprinkling of doubles, combined with a marked decline in defense, makes him a huge drag on the team.
If you were going to make a list of the team’s problems, with Ichiro being last and things like “the starting pitching is horrible” on top, you’d have to put these two, and particularly their immobility, right up there. The porous infield defense is killing guys like Silva who rely on it. They pretty much have to pray that a ball put into play goes to Beltre or center/right field. That’s it — that’s all they have. And as we’ve seen, while Lopez has collected some key hits, neither of them are helping the team consistently put up runs.
If this keeps up, improving the infield is going to have to be a priority for the team this off-season, and we’re barely halfway through the year.
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when someone as generally even-handed as Drayer calls out a player [coughBetancourtcough] by name …
I’ve been thinking for a while now what I’d try to do if I were hired as the GM of the Mariners, and most of it centers around upgrading the defense as much as possible, largely to make mediocre pitchers look better than they really are and then try to sell high on them.
One thought that keeps coming back is to try to sell high on Lopez right now, get an Adam Everett type for short, and move Yuni to second. Yuni’s range just isn’t cutting it at short anymore. Would it be enough at second? I’d thought it would be, but reading the above, I’m just not sure… his anemic bat would certainly hurt more at second than at short, but… I dunno… is it possible Yuni would have more value at second than at short?
Getting back to that Twins “rumor” about Beltre, they could use a shortstop as much as they need a third baseman. Is there any chance we could convince them to take Betancourt off our hands? I’d accept any decent prospect, their farm system should be deep enough to find somebody worthwhile they can spare.
I’ve been thinking it’s time to trade Betancourt for a while. I’m mostly worried that it’s getting to be too late.
[that's not begging the question]
The anonymous coach’s comment about Beltre was about his hitting work, and I think you have to grant that despite his talent, the flaws in Beltre’s hitting are a source of ongoing frustration, and everybody wonders if there’s something more he could be doing about it.
I was just thinking last night, after reading the debate about Silva and his sinker, that maybe it is better (in some cases) that Silva’s sinker not sink so much. He gets more fly balls, but, in Safeco, as long as they aren’t home runs or aren’t to left field, maybe he’ll have a better chance than if he gets a lot of ground balls to the middle infield.
Well, it’s something anyway.
I’ve suspected that Yuni is one of the main culprits in the “bad clubhouse vibe” or “losing culture” that was talked about earlier.
Problem is…I’m not sure that Beltre can do anything about that…given that his LD% is on track with his career, his BABIP is abnormally low and his injured thumb (misdiagnosed by team physicians), I’m not sure calling him out is that useful or that informed.
Again, it’s focussing on the WRONG areas of concern.
#5
Yeah, if I had a torn ligament in my thumb I’d be all over the chance to take extra batting practice.
Is there a synergistic effect on defense? Does a great 3B make a SS better at all? Does a terrible 1B make a 2B worse? Do two bad MIF compound the problem? Also is there any reason to explain why Lopez has been this bad defensively? He wasn’t “this” bad last year. He was around average.
So, upgrades are needed everywhere except 3rd/RF.
Dave, are we looking at a two year plan to get this ship righted?
About Lopez: I haven’t gotten to see a lot of games this year, being in NY, but he’s always seemed decent enough at defense. But Betancourt has looked terrible from what I’ve seen. Balls go shooting through well into his area, and he hardly looks like he’s moved.
2008 Fielding Bible +/- numbers for Lopez and Betancourt:
Lopez: 245 expected GB outs, 236 GB outs made, 78 air expected outs, 75 air outs made.
That’s 12 outs below average for Lopez, good for 31st among ML second baseman.
Betancourt: 201 expected GB outs, 187 GB outs made, 66 air expected outs, 67 air outs made.
That’s 13 outs below average for Betancourt, good for 29th among ML shortstops.
Derek’s right – they both suck.
Triunfel anyone?
[ponies]
Mike Snow,
I would assume the Twins are not at all interested in Betancourt. Gardenhire has always valued (some would say overvalued) defense, especially up the middle. They will have a very similar thinking on Betancourt as Derek has here. And the Twins are comfortable with Punto/Tolbert there. Heck, they signed Adam Everett originally to play there.
Dave and Derek have mentioned it a couple times, but I don’t think this posts stresses how much a good defense is important to how good of a pitcher Carlos Silva is. When he pitched in Minnesota, the Twins always had a very very rangey defense and a very high Defense Efficiency. Basically, because of the M’s defense, Silva is being forced to get 30-33 outs a game, instead of 27.
You could make the argument that Washburn falls into this same data set. But I won’t necessarily make that argument.
What does that mean, Some Dude? Are you saying USSM’s coverage is predictable in some way?
Or are you one of the people who thinks Lopez should be starting the All Star Game?
#14 – How did you get “told you so” out of “I’ve been a Lopez booster for a long, long time….but”
Wait. So, the M’s?
Well, I’m more hoping (wishing) that knowledge of Betancourt’s current defensive abilities hasn’t completely overtaken his reputation from a couple years ago. Whether it’s the Twins or somebody else, that’s why I would look for a way to sell while they still can, if indeed they can.
Betancourt is really frustrating in particular because of how fun he was to watch play defense when he first came up. I was never as enthusiastic about Lopez as I was about Betancourt.
This has to be a big focus either at the trade deadline or in the offseason. The Mariners can’t keep picking up groundball pitchers, putting them in front of crappy defenses, and then acting surprised when they suck.
Assuming the M’s found a trading partner for Lopez and/or Betancourt but did not receive an MLB ready 2B or SS in return, are there any reasonable in-house options?
Cairo, WFB & Vidro = Unreasonable.
As far as in-house options…how far away is Triunfel, and is 2B where he is likely to end up long-term rather than SS?
The Future Forty has his ETA at 2009, but I seem to remember reading he’d taken a pretty strong step backwards this year.
Honestly, getting an all-glove no-hit guy or two might be an acceptable stopgap, if you can find offense in other places.
he has changed physically, and I can’t tell how much is muscle and how much is good eatin’
I’ve made some comments over the last couple weeks about how Yuni has not improved at all…it’s ridiculous really…
We were all so happy when the FO locked them both up for years on the cheap and we thought we had an awesome MI, double play combo for the next five years (made a funny commercial even)…but they are both terrible…
And I usually don’t listen to a word Krueger or Blowers say (except to laugh or get angry at their stupidity) but I think it was one of them that said something the other day about Yuni that might have some value. They mentioned that he plays like he’s still in the neighborhood playing street ball. Maybe his lack of “develoment” has finally gotten to him, and we are seeing that he can’t make it on just pure talent?
I don’t know…I’m confused about this as the next guy…
Either way, something has to be changed…
Tug Hulett is actually hitting pretty well in Tacoma right now. Like any of the other options (and I would include Bloomquist), I wouldn’t be expecting an improvement, just a placeholder until we acquire a better option. If you trade Betancourt, as I would like to, you can’t count on trading him straight up for a better shortstop, so you have to figure his replacement will come from some other deal later (Dave suggested signing Furcal, as I recall).
As for Triunfel, he won’t arrive in 2009, unless it’s in September after he’s had a breakout year in AA. Wherever he ends up, he’s not nearly ready.
That’s 12 outs below average for Lopez, good for 31st among ML second baseman.
Considering there are just 30 teams, that’s just… ouch. So Lopez is worse than some other team’s second choice at 2B.
Well, I’m more hoping (wishing) that knowledge of Betancourt’s current defensive abilities hasn’t completely overtaken his reputation from a couple years ago. Whether it’s the Twins or somebody else, that’s why I would look for a way to sell while they still can, if indeed they can.
Well, they may read Heyman (“After watching Mariners shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt on Monday, I have to assume Derek Jeter’s three-year Gold Glove reign is over”) but the smart ones, at least, don’t pay any attention to him. And, unlike him, they have scouts who watch more than one game. It’s possible the M’s may be able to find a trading partner — as long as self-deluding guys like Brian (“The Giants can still contend this year”) Sabean are around, there’s always a shot — but as Sun Tzu sort of said, a strategy that relies on the incompetence of your enemies rarely works.
The Mariners can’t keep picking up groundball pitchers, putting them in front of crappy defenses, and then acting surprised when they suck.
As long as they refuse to believe in defensive data (and its corollary, fielding-independent pitching), and cling mindlessly to their unsupported belief that “the Mariners are a good defensive ballteam” (to the point that they state it with dogmatic puzzlement when the facts demonstrate otherwise), to quote a phrase making the rounds — yes they can.
Maybe we should have just let Yuni set off on that raft . . . is there any chance he’ll be a good ML shortstop again?
The only real “keepers” on the offensive side of the ball that are currently on the 25 man are ICHIRO!, Beltre, and Clement. There are others with value if used correctly like Reed, Raul, and yes WFB, but the rest need to go. This team is in bad, bad shape and “The Double-Play Twins” are a huge part of the problem.
But as many have mentioned before, if we get a GM that isn’t in the Bavasi mold, we can be back in the hunt by 2010.
Insulting a man’s metrics? That’s grounds for a duel.
I can´t help myself. I go through this site every day and I think this is the first time in a long time MIF problem has been brought up. Yet all of a sudden there is a bunch of guys saying – yes I thought about it too, yes that´s it, yes trade them both. That is sad.
On the other hand, when you say A you have to say B. The deadline is coming so when you´ll get rid off them, will you have two starters ready to play every day? And remember, all of you want to trade Cairo and Vidro too, so it´s four infielders gone in three weeks.
When they both took that day off earlier in the week, Jim Riggleman made a point of mentioning how he expected them to be an “All-Star combination”. I guess he didn’t say when, though.
I’m just a casual fan and don’t pretend to have any great insights, but it does seem like every season they expect them both to break out, and it then turns to “next season”. I know they are both young, but at what point do you realize you’re saying “next season” over and over?
Shannon Drayer’s post about how sometimes it seems Yuni just doesn’t care reminded me of Geoff’s post about how some players are putting in extra work, and others are sitting on the clubhouse couch guffawing at “Wedding Crashers” for the umpteenth time, as if all this losing was irrelevant. And I admit when I read that, I totally pictured Yuni on that couch guffawing…
[tried to fix it, hope I did it right!]
VLAD-
Only speaking for myself, I know I have brought up Yuni’s lack of improvements…go back through posts if you don’t believe it…
And other times, people have tried to bring it up, but it wasn’t on-topic, so they were told to wait for a post like this…
No reason for you to start talking mess…
In fairness, it’s been perfectly cool in game threads, and it’s been discussed there in the context of game performance.
And remember, all of you want to trade Cairo and Vidro too, so it´s four infielders gone in three weeks.
Vidro is not an infielder. Also, I wouldn’t say people are looking to trade either of them – designated for assignment would do just fine.
OK sorry to those who feel offended.
Anyway, what will be the plan? Who will play there if everybody´s gone? I am tied to my team here in Czech so it won´t be me..
VLAD-
And to answer your question, I’d rather them trade Lopez and Yuni right now for prospects and play any of these Rainiers for the rest of the season:
Valbuena, Chen, Hulett, or Navarro
The season is over and I am SICK of seeing these over-paid, under-producing hacks take the field everyday…
I’d rather see kids play out there for the rest of the year and get a good GM fix this mess come winter…
When I watch the baseball games Lopez seems to be doing fine defensively. Every fielder will treat you to a ball going through their legs or off their noggin from time to time. This discussion seems to be lets get rid of Lopez because he doesn’t play as good of defense as we think he should and offensively he doesn’t draw enough walks. I think as a #2 hitter he has done fine, around a 300 average and has been a patient hitter and moved runners along throughout the year. Offense has been this team’s biggest problem all year, I don’t think we should get rid of one of the only parts that has been good all year.
I’d aggree with getting a new shortstop, but not moving Yuni to 2B, why would we want a secondbaseman who can’t through accurately, we might be able to bring Knoblauch out of retirement if that is what we are looking for.
I’ve seen games where Lopez does fine, and a lot more games where he doesn’t seem to get to anything.
Every defensive metric that I can find that measures the season’s work shows him as just wretched, so in the absence of evidence that he’s good, well…
I’m not arguing for any solution here yet. I’m trying to point out the scope of the problem.
I’m not too concerned with Lopez’s offense…it’s “okay”…but his defense is pretty bad…he costs the teams runs…it’s not as if he just makes an error once in a while…
Yeah, that was my thinking too, but I haven’t been following him enough this year to know for sure.
Honestly, I think you fill the positions with freely available talent of some sort (like I said earlier in the thread, all-glove no-hit guys aren’t that hard to find at the middle infield spots) until the offseason, and then try to address it at that point when more players are available.
I like the Furcal idea, but it’s just one of many possibilities really.
I firmly believe that a skilled, forward-thinking GM who is given a free enough hand by ownership (meaning those two things are a given for the sake of discussion, let’s not debate them AGAIN) can get this team competitive again in 2009.
There are lots of holes, including these “newly discovered” ones, but the Mariners have plenty of resources to work with, both in money coming off the books (more of this) and players that can be moved (less of this, but still some).
Only in dog years.
Mark Ellis is a free agent. Without the same metrics used to show that Lopez is bad, I believe Ellis is a good defender and would seem to be a better No. 2 hitter.
I’d sign Orlando Cabrera to start at short next year and trade Yuni for whatever you can get.
Yuni’s defensive shortcomings have been mentioned numerous times dating back to last year, by both commenters and the authors, as even the most rudimentary google shows. But the problem has been developing over those two years, and a lot of people (not unreasonably) expected Betancourt to bounce back and so were giving him the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, the drumbeat has been there, and it has been building. There’s nothing sudden about this, except that the team’s other more-glaring problems have been occupying most of our attention first.
There’s nothing like More Of The Same, speaking of Mark Ellis and Orlando Cabrera: getting some other team’s defensive players who are ready to test free agency (probably for the second or third time); getting guys who’ve put in their best years for some other team, and the M’s get them on their downside, paying more for them as well.
Don’t the Mariners have ANYBODY at Triple- or Double-A who can run rings around Yuni and Lopez defensively, and who show at least a passing familiarity with productive hitting?
Which brings to mind another one of the M’s stupider trades: Omar Vizquel.
.
.
.
Think about that. Sheesh.
Karen:
We could probably get him back. I think the Giants have talked about him being available.
Even at 53 he’s a better defender than Yuni.
The right GM can turn this team around in two years. It took Detroit only three to go from a 119 loss season to 95 wins and the AL pennant. And they had less payroll to play with than the M’s do (particularly with Sexson coming off the books). Of course “the right GM” is easy to say but hard to find, particularly with the current brain trust in charge of hiring. And — speaking as someone who remembers those M’s teams in the 70s and 80s — it’s understandable, even characteristic, for us fans to fall into the “not only is the glass half empty, I’m not even sure we still have a glass” sentiment. But knee-jerk cynicism is just lazy, no matter how many years of evidence might support it.
Yet another reason why the next GM has his work cut out for him.
Realistically, these two just aren’t tradeable for anything of value.
In happier news, the same metrics show that we have the worst catcher, fourth worst LF, third worst 1B and worst DH (more than twice as bad as the next worst). Woo hoo!
Well, the double play twins have to be addressed, but I think they’d be year two of a multi plan year. In fact, I think a smart GM would do it that way and not try to introduce changes all at once…
What is the deal on this kind of defensive regression (especially with Yuni)? Do we ever see players come out of it? I mean usually it seems to be caused by aging/decrease in fitness, and aging isn’t exactly reversible. But age shouldn’t be the issue here though fitness certainly could be.
Do we ever see players turn it around defensively once they start to slip? I’m not talking about recovering from quirky error seasons, I’m start about the range factors etc.
I ask because I can think of any examples of this kind of trend reversing.
I obviously have no insight to their thoughts or feelings, but it looks like laziness, apathy, and fitness…
It’s sad really…Yuni was a BLAST to watch…most thought he’d be the next Omar out there…
I feel like Yuni’s defensive descent from exciting whiz SS of the future to mediocre surplus second baseman has been really fast. Like, fell off a cliff fast. How soon before we are trading him for Hector Luna?
I know this has been talked about quite a bit before because I always have the same thought when I read it:
When I took a nice long break from the Mariners last year (or was it the one before that?) most things were pretty much as expected when I came back… except for one thing. I was shocked at Yuni’s defense. When I left he was an acrobatic and smooth highlight reel at short. Prone to some rookie errors, but looking like a defensive wiz kid.
When I came back, he looked slow and clumsy. It was pretty shocking when you don’t see it gradually happen.
To my untrained eye, his problems seem like the kind of problems you’d have if you were carrying an extra 25 pounds – like trying to play short wearing a backpack and carrying water bottles. I don’t think it matters in his case if it is muscle or fat… I think he needs to get lean.
Maybe a letter to Sam Perlozzo or whoever is supposed to coach the infielders is in order? Sort of like the letter to Raffy Chavez on Felix, except without a solution outside of making Jenny Craig a Special Assistant to the team.
A year or so ago, back when Yuni was still considered hot stuff some photos emerged on facebook of him partying with a bunch of girls from my high school (who were college freshmen at the time.) It seemed strange at the time, and now seems like a pretty clear indicator of how seriously Yuni has been taking his profession.
sigh.
[has its own post now]
Some really stiff conditioning work might be part of the answer here — and at some point you do have to wonder about some variety of the ‘clubhouse chemistry’ thing as a source of trouble. Most of us have worked in environments where morale got sufficiently low (usually because overall company performance was going off a cliff) that otherwise good people started mailing it in because it just didn’t bloody-well matter any more. I know highly-paid ‘baseball professionals’ are supposed to be immune from this sort of creeping job malaise but I wonder if that’s really the case.
I find Lopez and Betancourt appealing for some reason. Maybe memories of how good they seemed to be when they first came up, combined with the layperson’s appreciation of how J. Lo seems to keep coming through in, um, “clutch” situations. It feels like both of them should be fixable, too, by the right training and management approach. That would be an awesome thing for the new clubhouse to take on.
This makes me a sad panda.
Looks like Tug takes Richie’s spot on the roster, any chance he can be a stopgap measure til Triunfel or whoever?
DMZ – couldn’t agree more with you. FINALLY someone jumps off the damn J.LO / Yuni train.
I want them out too …. take out all of the Bavasi trash (obviously there are still a couple keepers)
I feel like the combo of them together is just not a good fit. I think Yuni is just happy to be here in America and the bigs. He may be a bad influence on Jose detracting his focus from baseball perhaps. If we trade Yuni, maybe it will help Lopez give more attention to his production in the field and make him more aware of things that can happen. I have been a big Lopez fan for a while now and not ready to cut the cord. He is our most productive hitter at the plate in my opinion and gets a few nice clutch hits.
I say trade Yuni. If you dont get a SS back or sign one this winter, let Mike Morse have the shot again. He may have made a few mistakes in the field, but that guy is a winner you want on your team. He will do whatever it takes to win. I hated seeing him go down this year. He will always grind out an AB and get base hits.
#64 – I’m fairly sure that if we’re looking to upgrade the defense that Mike Morse isn’t the answer.
Mike Morse nooooooooooo
I’ve always likes the idea of Yuni at 2B. We have a couple of guys in the system that can play SS, though I think Tui doesn’t count much anymore. We also have a couple of second basemen in the minors, if Yuni stays at SS.
I’ve said it before though, I really hope the Mariners deal Lopez at the ASB because I don’t see his value getting any higher. Plus, if you trade him in the offseason you have a chance of that second half slump thing popping up again.
I think we over-rated Yuni a little bit in his first year. It was hard not to, considering the string of potted plants he replaced, and I think we also happened to get a small sample that reflected him at his best (which may or may not reflect “hunger” but given his history to that point that’s an easy guess to make). That said, it’s obvious he’s bulked up and slowed down since then. Blame an unlimited American diet, plus access to modern strength and conditioning techniques and equipment. I kind of wonder if the trainers didn’t realize what they were doing to him, since they don’t normally get kids who’ve been bereft of both their entire lives (even the latin prospects generally come out of academies where they get a more American experience). The baseball I saw in Cuba didn’t feature anybody you would consider bulky, even on their pro teams, and if the state of the stadiums certainly didn’t suggest they had any fancy weightrooms to go to. Maybe Yuni was just a chubby, slow kid forced to live in a lean, slick-fielding body, and like so many folks in America, it just took a bunch of fat and carbs to let him out.
You’re only fairly sure?
Morse is a shortstop the way Vidro is a second baseman.
Note sure this is true. As of July 8th:
Defensive Efficiency (calculated as [H-HR+ROE]/[BFP-K-BB-HBP-HR]):
McLaren April .690
McLaren May .665
McLaren June .667
(McLaren overall .675)
Riggleman June/July .720
Yes – it is a SMALL sample under the Riggleman leadership, but the team has DRASTICALLY and UNEQUIVACABLY been getting more outs. Maybe it’s just random noise – it’s way too early to tell.
But, .720 DER is best-in-baseball territory.
So, the obvious rebuttal is that managers cannot make fielders better.
My belief – which I have held for some time – is that POSITIONING is *MORE* than 50% of the defensive puzzle. So, a poorly positioned team is going to appear dreadful in every metric. Certainly, athletic ability helps, but I believe the basic assumption by most people is that defensive results are predominately about INDIVIDUAL defensive prowess. I believe that this assumption is in error.
Riggleman specifically noted he was changing from “situational” positioning to a more “pitcher/batter” positioning basis — like Atlanta used during their run of titles (and they had a slew of DER titles in there, as well).
Defensive metrics have always been problematic, and rarely predictive. I believe this is because the defensive SCHEME is not something that is general knowledge or can readily be quantified into stats.
What I do know is that before Riggleman took over, the team was consistently 29th or 30th in DER. Today, they are 24th – with a TEAM DER that has managed to climb to .691, (when it was as low as .683, IIRC).
It is VERY surprising to me that one could positively impact DER this much, this fast, because you’ve got 1/2 a season of data holding back change.
Way too early to begin cheering, but it is definitely something to watch for the rest of the season.
#64: That argument sounds a lot like the argument that was made when Carlos Guillen was given away. I’m not sure Yuni has the talent Carlos had, but a player’s influence on his teammates is one of those things that is basically impossible to accurately judge. If there is a focus problem with Jose, it is his fault and the coaching staff’s fault for not addressing it, not neccesarily Yuni’s.
Looking at his career right now, Jose Lopez reminds me a lot of Luis Rivas. Neither one of them hit all that much when they were minor leaguers, but they didn’t hit much while they were young, and I think that it assumed that age would continue to make them better players, but ultimately “holding their own” at the plate at a young age in the minors didn’t portend anything more than about an 80 OPS+ in the majors.
I’ve always thought that Yuni is really this guy reincarnated or whatever…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cruzde01.shtml
Lopez is one of the few good young players the M’s have in their entire system, jettisoning him now would be asinine. Lopez could take another ten years to develop the plate discipline to walk fifty plus times but I could easily see him putting up a .320/.350/.425 line with eighty to ninety runs scored and ninety to one hundred knocked in over each of the next three to six years. Betancourt, on the other hand, is garbage. I would look to see him packaged with Washburn, when Wash is traded, in hopes of getting a +10 defensive shortstop regardless of said shortstops offensive skills (ala Tony Pena Jr.). A move like this could also light a fire under Lopez to maybe lose twenty-five pounds so his glove would have a chance of being neutral.
My link didn’t appear to work. It was Deivi Cruz fwiw
Hmm.
Maybe move Lopez to the OF (a la Danny Tartabull).
Put Lopez in left, try this Tug guy out in the infield, put Ibanez at first or DH, release Vidro, put Cairo back on the bench where he should stay since his only value is as late inning defensive replacement.
I agree that these guys really are no longer as good as they should be and that they certainly are problems, but these guys are 2nd and 4th on the team in extra base hits. Can we just go ahead and punt the whole team?
Mariners extra-base hits
13 Kenji
1) 37 Ibanez
2) 31 Lopez
3) 30 Beltre
4) 27 Betancourt
5) 19 Sexson
6) 17 Ichiro
7) 15 Vidro
…
14) 1 Felix
…
25) 0 Willie
…it took me longer than it should have to figure out why Kenji and his 13 extra base deserved a smiley face
8 ) or
?
Looks like Willie moved up on the list today.
WFB should get a legitimate shot as the everyday 2B…
Amen, Amen, and Amen. I’ve been wondering about the Lopez love affair. He’s certainly better than last year at the bat, in fact, he’s pretty valuable at the bat. But, he has absolutely no range at 2B and it’s killing the team defense. Personally, I think Sexson was a better fielding 1B than Lopez is at 2B.
I also totally agree about Betancourt. The only above average defensive player in the infield right now is Beltre. Maybe they ought to put him at SS.
What are the chances that Beltre could play SS? If the M’s already have a below-average fielder, then they might as well put a decent bat there.